Caerphilly: Woman, 83, dies after being injured in dog attack
- Thread starter skinnydipper
- Start date
AmyMay
Situation normal
Another senseless death. Poor woman ?
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
How many more before these are banned?
And please no b*ll*cks about "it's not the breed it's the owner". We can't remove stupid owners, we can remove these dogs.
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Errin Paddywack
Well-Known Member
Horrendous.
Sandstone1
Well-Known Member
How awful. Poor lady. The question is not really the breed but why people want to own dogs like these. They are often very poorly breed with huge health problems. They are so badly put together and suffer from breathing problems and joint problems. Often bred just to look intimidating. Why would you want to own a dog that can hardly walk or breath with uncertain nature?
Its not the dogs but the idiots that breed them and want to own them. Often with docked tails and cropped ears too just to make them look tough. Something needs to be done about the dog breeding and selling laws in this country.
Its not the dogs but the idiots that breed them and want to own them. Often with docked tails and cropped ears too just to make them look tough. Something needs to be done about the dog breeding and selling laws in this country.
ArklePig
Well-Known Member
You know, I've been on the fence about banned breeds and stuff before but I'm starting to agree with you. It's always the same types.
Moobli
Well-Known Member
Another sad but probably preventable death. Very sad.
luckyoldme
Well-Known Member
Poor lady, it's awful to think of someone so vulnerable dying like that.
Nasicus
Well-Known Member
Yup, trends cant' continue to be ignored or swept under the 'owner not the breed' rug. Plenty of horrible owners with labs, spaniels, doodle, chihuahuas, yet it's not those breeds you see in the news with increasing frequency...
misst
Well-Known Member
Heartbreaking. What a horrible way to die.
There is a dog on our local website which looks like a bully x and a photo has been posted as it attacked a small dog (unprovoked) in a public area. It took 3 people to get the dog off the little one. The "dog walker" with it said it was a rescue previously used a bait dog so it was not the dogs fault! The dog was off lead in public place, unmuzzled. It was reported but no one seems to know anything about dog or walker. Photo was posted to warn other people. Children play in that area.
The police and dog warden seem fairly disinterested but I guess they are likely snowed under with work already.
There is a dog on our local website which looks like a bully x and a photo has been posted as it attacked a small dog (unprovoked) in a public area. It took 3 people to get the dog off the little one. The "dog walker" with it said it was a rescue previously used a bait dog so it was not the dogs fault! The dog was off lead in public place, unmuzzled. It was reported but no one seems to know anything about dog or walker. Photo was posted to warn other people. Children play in that area.
The police and dog warden seem fairly disinterested but I guess they are likely snowed under with work already.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Is no one going to question what the neighbourhood must be like to have produced two dangerous dogs in a relatively short span of time?
And for the hundredth time, banning breeds objectively does not work - read the literature rather than repeating emotive, unsupported ideas.
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
They are probably related.
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/dog-believed-killed-10-year-22199992
stangs
Well-Known Member
Could it... could it be that it's not the breed that's the issue, but breeding reactive lines because of their appearance alone and selling then them to owners who don't care or don't know about giving the dogs the necessary education?
No, that would be preposterous. Everyone knows that the 'b' in 'bully' stands for 'bad dog'.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
I am reading literature including synopses of Colorado Court papers that suggest that this assertion is not recognised as a universal truth.
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Smitty
Well-Known Member
I'm not sure that a toy breed dog would be capable of hospitalising or killing an adult, unless they tripped over them maybe, however reactive their breed lines. In any case, however vicious, it would not generally take 3 adults to gain control of it. This is the scary thing.
This is an escalating problem that I doubt can be dealt with effectively, in line with gun and knife crime. No amount of legislating or licencing is going to make much difference imo.
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
Funny, Boulder in Colorado has an excellent system. This is an old article but lots of good ideas.
https://www.westword.com/news/boulder-takes-a-bite-out-of-bad-dog-behavior-5105388
One of my very good friends in Colorado runs Government used to run accredited seminars in bite prevention, has been an expert witness in dog bite cases and has worked with/and where appropriate, rehabbed dogs that have been the subject of court orders.
If banning worked, then no one would be using dogs that look and act like pitbulls to breed dogs that look and act like pitbulls, which is exactly what they are doing now. And when you ban all those breeds, they will find more.
And when it's suggested that something like what they do in Boulder works, people say it will never work, or it's too hard.
https://www.westword.com/news/boulder-takes-a-bite-out-of-bad-dog-behavior-5105388
One of my very good friends in Colorado runs Government used to run accredited seminars in bite prevention, has been an expert witness in dog bite cases and has worked with/and where appropriate, rehabbed dogs that have been the subject of court orders.
If banning worked, then no one would be using dogs that look and act like pitbulls to breed dogs that look and act like pitbulls, which is exactly what they are doing now. And when you ban all those breeds, they will find more.
And when it's suggested that something like what they do in Boulder works, people say it will never work, or it's too hard.
Dexter
Well-Known Member
No one is saying that. Of course its the owners and breeders to blame, but a spaniel probably isn't going to kill me, an XL bully is.
What do you think the solution is? I cant think of anything that is realistic other than removing these huge dogs from the equation.
Dexter
Well-Known Member
It isn't working if a dog can bite three times. It sounds like it was luck rather than anything else that prevented a death.
I would love to see something like that brought in though. Theres so many incidents with out of control dogs, and mandatory assessment and training would help with a lot of those. But its not going to pick up these dogs that attack and kill out of the blue. This latest one is another dog that has never been reported, so it wouldn't have been known about until too late
stangs
Well-Known Member
Colorado banned pit bulls. This was correlated with a decrease in dog bites. This was also correlated with a decrease in bites from dogs regardless of breed, i.e. the BSL alone did nothing. Policing their BSL also cost Denver $5.8 million - money the UK does not have at present. And in recent years, several cities in Colorado have gotten rid of the BSL so clearly they don’t think it’s that useful. [x]
Now, conveniently, the UK has already banned pitbulls. So, following the logic that “it ‘worked’ for Colorado and therefore it’ll work for us”, the minute the DDA was implemented, dog attacks should have plateaued.
No such thing as ‘removing these huge dogs from the equation’.
You would have to ban a type to ‘ban’ the XL bully, a set of measurements like they decreed for the pitbull. So then people would breed even bigger dogs, or they’d breed shorter muzzles, longer muzzles, anything that would mean the dog is no longer a bully but X instead. The dogs getting labelled XL bullies would start being called mastiff crosses instead, Old Tyme bulldog types, “rare GSD x Great Pyrenees mix”, “Great Dane x Boerboel” etc. Or we’d see an increase in imports of dogs with similar - if not more difficult - guarding traits that don’t fit the measurements at all, like Kangals.
If you then made the measurements more vague to include the variations that would come up, you’d be unnecessarily including breeds like the Newfoundland. Besides, there’s a limit to how many dogs you can subject to having to be muzzled and on a lead in public at all times before owners of perfectly safe dogs started pushing back.
It’s not a good answer but I believe the only possible improvements could come from:
1) Further monitoring and regulation of breeders (financial incentives for ‘good’ breeders perhaps?)
2) Education for owners for potentially dangerous dogs (an incentive like free dog food for attending training classes? That way the owner might learn something, the dogs would get some socialisation, and it would provide an opportunity to monitor dogs at risk of harming someone)
3) Potentially licenses being necessary to own dogs of a specific type (not just bullies though: all guard or guardian breeds). Licensing would be less likely to push breeding underground than banning the breed completely.
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paddy555
Well-Known Member
would the people who own these sort of dogs really attend education or bother to get a license? Do the people breeding these types really care? I don't see responsibility for their dogs behaviour being high on their list of priorities.
I think it very unlikely in which case what would you do? fine them for non compliance? they still wouldn't care and getting money would be a nightmare.
I'm sure many of these are underground and would go further under if there was any attempt to regulate them.
I feel very sorry for this poor lady and others who have died from these dogs.
Christmascinnamoncookie
Fais pas chier!
Different entirely, but the dog that killed the baby was a sibe, not an xl bully. Surely people realise it could happen? Was it the lady’s son who owned the dog? So his dog has killed his mum? She must have been terrified.
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stangs
Well-Known Member
Attending education or getting a license for the sake it of it? Unlikely, in the same way that the majority of COVID puppies don’t appear to have gotten any education (it’s not just bully owners). Hence why I suggested an incentive would be needed.
On the other hand, no one wants their dog to kill their child or them. Even people who buy them as a status symbol/weapon - what's the point of a weapon if you can't control it? So at least training classes, even if just for obedience rather than socialising the dog, ought to be of some interest. The issue is just making it interesting or a priority before the dog's behaviour has escalated to the point there's no turning back and you're sick of dealing with it.
Agreed.
The problem is distinguishing between what seems like low-level/uneducated breeders with poor breeding stock and ‘breeders’ that are really just criminal gangs who sprung up during the pandemic in particular. The former needs to be educated and/or encouraged to raise the puppies better for whatever incentive. The later needs to be addressed in the same way as gangs dealings drugs or guns - though, admittedly, that’s no easy feat.
I’m still pondering the answer, but the crucial thing appears to be “how do we make sure that people choose to buy from the right breeders?” That can only be answered in understanding why they buy from the wrong ones - is it pity, is it a friend's dog, is it price, is it love at first sight, etc - and it’s something I’d like to see more work on.
I do believe that if you can get people buying puppies from the right home, you can then get the other stuff (licensing, getting training and education) much more consistently.
DressageCob
Well-Known Member
I don't understand why bullies are legal, when pitbulls are not. So called bullies are just Pitbull crosses.
COldNag
Wasting my time successfully....
Would it be feasible to have all breeding to require a licence, abd at the same time outlaw these bully types?
(Abd while we are at it, badly bred brachycephalic dogs).
I know it would not really be feasible, but one can dream....
(Abd while we are at it, badly bred brachycephalic dogs).
I know it would not really be feasible, but one can dream....
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
Surely the sort of people that like having a chainsaw on legs want it throwing itself at the end of the lead and threatening everyone? I can’t see any reason or education that would persuade them a nice well mannered dog would be ‘cooler’ or give them more status. They are not allowed to carry guns or machetes but they are allowed to arm themselves with dogs.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
I suppose that’s a ‘blessing’ in that imagine if it was just a random person killed on the street.
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
This would almost certainly be the case where I live. They are 'protection' dogs, there to look and to be intimidating. It's one of the reasons I struggle with walking Ivy in the dark evenings. I make space for all dogs we don't know anyway but having been stared at with intensity from across the road by this type if dog on more than one occasion, want as much time as possible to take evasive action. I've stood up to incoming dogs before but these don't seem the type to back down.
There's a mastiff shepherd cross a few streets away. It's walked on a great big chain. It has attacked dogs and bitten people in the process, including running across a road and clearing a 4/5ft fence to do so. It's under DDA, supposed to be in a muzzle but isn't. What use is any legislation if there's no-one there to enforce it?
I don't support breed specific legislation but I am fed up with 'it's not the breed'. It is. These are huge, heavy, powerful dogs with high stakes if it all goes wrong. I make no apology for emoting about sharing streets with them thinking if one went for me or my dog it would be game over. Half the owners wouldn't care and the other half are too busy complaining that people are being mean by being intimidated by the big intimidating dog they've decided to have.
Christmascinnamoncookie
Fais pas chier!
And yet a bloke up the road (well known) had a chocolate lab that was meant to be muzzled but the muzzle was always dangling loose and people used to bollock him all the time. One day, there were multiple police cars outside his house and they were taking away the dogs, think he had 3 at the time. Possibly if enough people complain, it might be enforced, or possibly this was years ago and there might have been a dog warden.
Christmascinnamoncookie
Fais pas chier!
Dunno how to take that: is it better that it was possibly his mum? Could it be classed as murder? I mean, as you say, chainsaw on legs. One owner round here used to ask if you wanted to pit your dog against his. I wouldn’t have fancied any dog’s chance against Zak, but he was not people aggressive.
SadKen
Well-Known Member
My reaction to these stories is ‘aaaaand it’s an XL bully’.
It’s pretty much always an XL bully.
I don’t know whether it’s because XL bullies have a natural propensity to extreme aggression or because the owners are d***heads (and they always are). You’re a d***head if you want an XL bully. Either way there is a problem - these dogs are far too powerful to stop once they’re in the zone. We are seeing the results in the news.
I don’t like them - sue me. Banning them may not work for the reasons given. Cane corsos seem to be overtaking bullies as the dog du jour for d***heads local to me.
So what’s the solution? I don’t know - but would banning bullies potentially reduce their numbers? Maybe, but they are fetching huge prices. Otherwise it’s really down to enforcement, hard and fast. And that doesn’t exist, leaving social coercion and influence. It was great when frenchies were the ‘in dog’ as a status symbol, health issues aside. Let’s pay love islanders to praise chihuahuas again perhaps.
It’s pretty much always an XL bully.
I don’t know whether it’s because XL bullies have a natural propensity to extreme aggression or because the owners are d***heads (and they always are). You’re a d***head if you want an XL bully. Either way there is a problem - these dogs are far too powerful to stop once they’re in the zone. We are seeing the results in the news.
I don’t like them - sue me. Banning them may not work for the reasons given. Cane corsos seem to be overtaking bullies as the dog du jour for d***heads local to me.
So what’s the solution? I don’t know - but would banning bullies potentially reduce their numbers? Maybe, but they are fetching huge prices. Otherwise it’s really down to enforcement, hard and fast. And that doesn’t exist, leaving social coercion and influence. It was great when frenchies were the ‘in dog’ as a status symbol, health issues aside. Let’s pay love islanders to praise chihuahuas again perhaps.