Caerphilly: Woman, 83, dies after being injured in dog attack

[Smitty]

A couple of months ago I was in the town centre and a couple of 'wannabees' with a proper traditional looking staff were walking towards me. I pulled into a shop doorway to let them pass and they both grinned. One said to the other that I was scared of the dog. Umm, possible but there is COVID to consider. They were so chuffed ?!!

I am waiting to see a giant Turkish Kangol make an appearance in the news (I've seen them on you tube ?), heaven help us.

 

[skinnydipper]

@stangs, please could you tell me what breeds of dog you have/have had.

You have posted a lot of theory on this thread, I would be interested to know your level of experience with real dogs.

Thank you.


Edited.

 

[Red-1]

@stangs, please could you tell me what breed of dog you have/have had.

You have posted a lot of theory on this thread, I would be interested to know your level of experience with real dogs.

Thank you.

Comment removed as it was misunderstood from what I meant so was obviously rubbish!

Anyone that interested can still find it quoted. Apologies to anyone offended!

 

[SantaVera]

No one is saying that. Of course its the owners and breeders to blame, but a spaniel probably isn't going to kill me, an XL bully is.

What do you think the solution is? I cant think of anything that is realistic other than removing these huge dogs from the equation.

Agree totally

 

[Sandstone1]

The real problem that needs to be addressed is not really the breed itself. Its the type of people that want to own dogs like these. They want them because they are intimidating and aggressive. They like that people are scared of them. They actively encourage them to be aggressive. They often do not have a nice life and are in pain as they are so poorly bred. Even if the breed was made illegal they would still be bred and sold by these types of people. The same as pit bulls.
I do not know the answer to it but its not banning certain breeds. The dangerous dogs act does not work. Making it harder to own and breed dogs is probably the way to go but hows that going to work?

 

[stangs]

@stangs, please could you tell me what breeds of dog you have/have had.

You have posted a lot of theory on this thread, I would be interested to know your level of experience with real dogs.

Dog walked for a few toy breeds, lived with an Owczarek and several Desi and Bully Kuttas at different times.

Of course, the theory I post is all based on the literature. My experience with dogs isn’t relevant when I’ve provided sources repeatedly on various threads that support what I’ve written - including the research that contributed to the Netherlands getting rid of its BSL. Nor does anyone need to be the world expert in dog ownership to point out flaws in someone else’s argument, as I did when Colorado’s BSL came up.

If you disagree with what I’ve said or see a flaw in it, make your point and provide a source to back it up. Don’t try go for me.

Real dogs as opposed to stuffed ones?

Of all posters, I expected better from you than being snide.

 

[Red-1]

Of all posters, I expected better from you than being snide.

LOL, I'm glad you think better of me, but I think you misunderstand. I was wondering if the poster was meaning real dogs as in dogs in real life as opposed to research, or "real dogs" as opposed to toy ones meaning little fluffy handbag types. Hence a jokey remark to elicit that information.

FWIW, I was asking as I believe toy types are as tricky to train as big types! I know a toy type which latched onto a human and did severe damage and no prising got it off. I also think your posts have been well researched.

FWIW, I have owned several GSDs, all but one have been beautifully behaved with very little effort and one was not. Now I have two handbag dogs who simply do what they wish. My reading goes as far as "Don't Shoot the Dog" and I find your posts informative.

On reflection, I am disappointed that you thought I was being snide!

 

[teacups]

<snip>
On reflection, I am disappointed that you thought I was being snide!

I took it literally and also thought it was unlike you.

Glad you explained in more detail.

 

[scats]

Another who sadly thinks they should be banned and I actually groom one who I am very fond of. He’s a gorgeous dog, but his sheer strength and size has to be seen to be believed. I met him at 4 months old and he was already strong enough to practically knock me off my feet when he just raised a paw at me playfully.
Two months later and I couldn’t believe the size of him. I’ve never seen anything like it. He’s absolutely beautiful, but if he decided to turn, or I did something that confused and upset him and he reacted, I really wouldn’t stand a chance.
Whereas I groom many reactive toy breeds, and yes they could inflict a nasty bite to me, but none of them are going to be able to maul me to death.

 

[Red-1]

I took it literally and also thought it was unlike you.

Glad you explained in more detail.

Because I was being genuine, I'm not sure how to take it as a snide thing.

I am interested as the one GSD that didn't train well and easily has destroyed my confidence with dogs. We had professional input to no effect. I swore I'd never have another. Then Heck came along, a half dead waif on the street and he made himself at home. Then mum died and we inherited her handbag dog too.

I guess I'm always wondering what we did wrong with the one that didn't train, although even the breeder told us he was a wrong 'un, and the trainer said he was not one who would be 'cured' by training. I was heartbroken as he would be great 99% of the time, then just turn without reason. After a year if intensive training, I did what I believed was the correct thing and PTS. And have been stalking the pages of dog threads ever since, wondering if there was 'an answer' that we missed at the time.

I don't think we will ever have another 'proper dog' as in not a handbag dog, as the two handbag dogs we have have proved that we are no trainers yet at least they are portable!

 

[skinnydipper]

Of course, the theory I post is all based on the literature. My experience with dogs isn’t relevant when I’ve provided sources repeatedly on various threads that support what I’ve written - including the research that contributed to the Netherlands getting rid of its BSL.

I remember a previous discussion when you said you would like a certain type of dog (bull type) so you could walk about at night and feel safe.

Clearly you and I choose our dogs for different reasons.

 

[teacups]

That’s odd re the GSD - I knew one who sounds just like that. Owners who previously had a GSD rspca rescue case too, which they had successfully retrained. But this one…it just seemed as though she had some wiring which had gone wrong in her brain. They got her as a puppy so no previous history of abuse.

Re stuffed dog versus real dog: to me the literal meaning read as though you were saying the poster should shut up because their comments made you think they had no actual dog experience, and that no one who did not have dog ownership experience with a live real dog rather than a toy stuffed one could have an opinion which is valid. Or something to that effect. Does that make sense to you? I’m not always good at explaining.

 

[skinnydipper]

There are breeds I would not choose to own, XL bullies are right up there along with Ovcharkas, Akitas, and a few more.

 

[Red-1]

That’s odd re the GSD - I knew one who sounds just like that. Owners who previously had a GSD rspca rescue case too, which they had successfully retrained. But this one…it just seemed as though she had some wiring which had gone wrong in her brain. They got her as a puppy so no previous history of abuse.

Re stuffed dog versus real dog: to me the literal meaning read as though you were saying the poster should shut up because their comments made you think they had no actual dog experience, and that no one who did not have dog ownership experience with a live real dog rather than a toy stuffed one could have an opinion which is valid. Or something to that effect. Does that make sense to you? I’m not always good at explaining.

In which case I will remove that comment.

 

[hairycob]

Friend used to have GSDs until she got 1 that was highly reactive and apparently untrainable. After he wsa PTS she found out that at least 2 others from the same litter (5 pups) were the same.

 

[skinnydipper]

Comment removed as it was misunderstood from what I meant so was obviously rubbish!

Anyone that interested can still find it quoted. Apologies to anyone offended!

I don't have the option to edit my post to remove your comment. I'll ask Admin if they will kindly delete it.

 

[Red-1]

That’s odd re the GSD - I knew one who sounds just like that. Owners who previously had a GSD rspca rescue case too, which they had successfully retrained. But this one…it just seemed as though she had some wiring which had gone wrong in her brain. They got her as a puppy so no previous history of abuse.

Re stuffed dog versus real dog: to me the literal meaning read as though you were saying the poster should shut up because their comments made you think they had no actual dog experience, and that no one who did not have dog ownership experience with a live real dog rather than a toy stuffed one could have an opinion which is valid. Or something to that effect. Does that make sense to you? I’m not always good at explaining.

We chose him as he was a relative of another we'd owned. KC registered etc. The breeder tried to dissuade us from taking him on pick-up as they said he was abnormal. They offered a bitch instead, as there were only 2 males in that litter and the other had gone.

As we'd successfully had GSDs before, we stupidly thought that we could manage him.

He was obviously 'different' and we put a heck of a lot of training in, far more than the other dogs. Puppy socialising, walking in busy areas, obedience, agility... The trouble was that 99.999 % of the time, he was great.

The big difference was that he was not people orientated. Whereas the other dogs we'd had would watch us all day long, follow us round the farm, lay and wait as we did chores etc, this one could take it or leave it. He would do great in training, then something would happen and like a switch, he was off task. If the switch was flicked, and you tried to 'bother' him, he was quite prepared to get his teeth out. Last ditch was a Police dog trainer, I had hoped he could have the aggression channelled, but no, he was totally unpredictable. Just a fluffy most of the time, switch flicked and then not of this world.

I believed PTS was the right thing to do before he hurt someone. I think he had a brain issue.

But that was me done for 'proper' dogs.

 

[Red-1]

I don't have the option to edit my post to remove your comment. I'll ask Admin if they will kindly delete it.

It doesn't matter, no worries. It isn't like I was rude or anything, just what I said in my brain and what came out on typing obviously missed!

When I got the reply, and it wasn't the reply I meant, I just decided you had originally meant book study as opposed to hands on, rather then big dogs as opposed to toy dogs. I thought it was an innocuous enough comment so didn't enquire further.

 

[skinnydipper]

I just decided you had originally meant book study as opposed to hands on,

Yep, that's what I meant

 

[CorvusCorax]

It's genetics, it's almost always genetics.

 

[TPO]

It's genetics, it's almost always genetics.

This is what is currently worrying me about a situation I know of.

The daughter of a snr manager at my work has an XL bully rescue as a first dog.

I believe that the litter were rescued as very young pups, but they already had their ears cropped. The daughter had her name down at the rescued ans they called to offer her a pup. AFAIK she is a first time dog owner.

Apart from eating her out of house and home she doesn't seem to be having any issues with him but...manager told this "funny" story to a group of us.

The dog guards snr managers wife. Story went something like "it's funny, he'll go to her and sit between her legs and doesn't like anyone approaching her. Even us, he has a second look at. That's so good, it's so nice he's protective".

I was sitting there very much ???

Also a first time owner but I've been brought up with and surrounded by dogs my whole life and mum is very experienced so osmosis ha ha

No personal experience with guard breeds but to me that's that's big red flag that needs sorting. I mean I know enough to know that you can't change what's bred into guard dogs (of an indiscriminate background but I'm going to guess that a cropped litter weren't bred with people friendly temperament as a priority) but I found that story very worrying.

Also didn't feel like I could/should be *that* person who says "well actually..." while everyone cooed about this family guardian.

I don't think the daughter takes him to training classes/a trainer or does anything other than walk him. I think he's roughly 1yr old now.

Not that I'm a fan of this happening but I hope I'm wrong! I just got the fear when they told me the guarding the wife/mum story. He's a truly lovely man and I'd hate for anything horrible to happen.

 

[Dexter]

This is what is currently worrying me about a situation I know of.

The daughter of a snr manager at my work has an XL bully rescue as a first dog.

I believe that the litter were rescued as very young pups, but they already had their ears cropped. The daughter had her name down at the rescued ans they called to offer her a pup. AFAIK she is a first time dog owner.

Apart from eating her out of house and home she doesn't seem to be having any issues with him but...manager told this "funny" story to a group of us.

The dog guards snr managers wife. Story went something like "it's funny, he'll go to her and sit between her legs and doesn't like anyone approaching her. Even us, he has a second look at. That's so good, it's so nice he's protective".

I was sitting there very much ???

Also a first time owner but I've been brought up with and surrounded by dogs my whole life and mum is very experienced so osmosis ha ha

No personal experience with guard breeds but to me that's that's big red flag that needs sorting. I mean I know enough to know that you can't change what's bred into guard dogs (of an indiscriminate background but I'm going to guess that a cropped litter weren't bred with people friendly temperament as a priority) but I found that story very worrying.

Also didn't feel like I could/should be *that* person who says "well actually..." while everyone cooed about this family guardian.

I don't think the daughter takes him to training classes/a trainer or does anything other than walk him. I think he's roughly 1yr old now.

Not that I'm a fan of this happening but I hope I'm wrong! I just got the fear when they told me the guarding the wife/mum story. He's a truly lovely man and I'd hate for anything horrible to happen.

Nothing on earth would get me to go visiting that house!

 

[SadKen]

It's genetics, it's almost always genetics.

Totally agree. I’ve had 4 GSD, of my current two the old boy is working line and he’s never bitten anyone, even as a pup. He follows every command immediately because he wants to. He adores humans. My young lad is a stunner who can’t be arsed to listen to commands. We have give a paw and recall, that’s it. He’s show lines, sleeps loads, low energy, politely disinterested in other people and dogs, amazing pet, not gonna win obedience prizes. I’ve no doubt there are GSD out there which have challenging genetics, we are lucky my young boy is genial.

There is a big pool of GSD genetics to choose from, which doesn’t exist with bullies I don’t think. So a small breeding pool, meaning gene replication on an adverse level is more likely. If you want size and weight you’ll breed for that; temperament is a minor concern and poorly tempered massive bullies will routinely be selected as breeding animals for that reason. With the money involved, breeders are going to breed and breed again, as much as possible. And the genetics they are breeding from are historically for aggression, power and killing. Not a good combo. Spaniel rage is terrifying in spaniels. Bully aggression is another level entirely.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I remember a previous discussion when you said you would like a certain type of dog (bull type) so you could walk about at night and feel safe.

Clearly you and I choose our dogs for different reasons.

I have also said this, although I wouldn't have a bully breed to do it but I would be more interested in a Doberman or Ridgeback or similar. I would like to walk across the more isolated parts of the Downs and feel safe at any time of day; not because I would have a protection trained dog, but because someone might see that I have a doberman and think twice about their actions not knowing it's perfectly friendly.. I don't see what the issue with that is and why it would elicit such an uppity response from you? A shitzhu is hardly going to have the same effect, and if I don't feel safe enough to walk it by myself in the local countryside then what's the point in having a dog? To do the same round the block walk 3 times a day or stick to the busy areas with the w@nkey unsocialised 'oodles of whatever sort?

I wouldn't have a big bully breed now as I wouldn't fully ever trust an animal that is so much physically stronger than I am; I do love the breeds and have always loved the nicer side of the type with responsible owners, we had many staffies when we were young, but I just wouldn't ever fully trust the dog sadly due to so many bad experiences and ill bred and ill socialised animals.

 

[CorvusCorax]

I think for me it is expectation management and failure to read body language a lot of the time. I see stressed dogs sitting beside their owners who don't notice.

My oldest dog is not a people person either, never has, never will be. Genetically inclined to be very independent and if he feels his treatment is unfair or outside of his parameters, he will react. So he's managed. When people are in the house (almost never) he is out. Having said that, he has really mellowed with age/retirement.
In fact all my dogs are out or in a crate/the car if I have visitors. They are big, powerful dogs and I'm not going to second guess how they might react to strangers in the home.
Based on how they have completely failed to alert me that the window cleaners are there or a jogger tripping over the old one and him not reacting the other week, I'm not sure anything terrible would happen, but better safe than sorry and best not to put anyone in an uncomfortable position, humans or dogs.

 

[skinnydipper]

I would be more interested in a Doberman or Ridgeback or similar.

the w@nkey unsocialised 'oodles of whatever sort?

A "w@nkey unsocialised 'oodle", an XL bully, nervy Doberman or aggressive Ridgeback (yes, met the latter two - great ). If I had to choose which of those to meet when I'm out with my dog, it would be the "w@nkey unsocialised 'oodle".

 

[AmyMay]

I have also said this, although I wouldn't have a bully breed to do it but I would be more interested in a Doberman or Ridgeback or similar. I would like to walk across the more isolated parts of the Downs and feel safe at any time of day; not because I would have a protection trained dog, but because someone might see that I have a doberman and think twice about their actions not knowing it's perfectly friendly.. I don't see what the issue with that is and why it would elicit such an uppity response from you? A shitzhu is hardly going to have the same effect, and if I don't feel safe enough to walk it by myself in the local countryside then what's the point in having a dog? To do the same round the block walk 3 times a day or stick to the busy areas with the w@nkey unsocialised 'oodles of whatever sort?

I wouldn't have a big bully breed now as I wouldn't fully ever trust an animal that is so much physically stronger than I am; I do love the breeds and have always loved the nicer side of the type with responsible owners, we had many staffies when we were young, but I just wouldn't ever fully trust the dog sadly due to so many bad experiences and ill bred and ill socialised animals.

I roam the countryside with my little fluffy dogs. I’m no more likely to be attacked in the middle of nowhere than I am in my local village. If I was attacked I have a Bichon that would run, and had a Shitsu that would have been well up for the fight.

A large dog doesn’t make you safer in the middle of nowhere- common sense does ?

 

[FestiveG]

Large dogs, who can be perceived as dangerous, certainly can make you feel safer in your home, sort of in the middle of nowhere. Part of the reason we got the rotter girls, was that I spent a few nights a week on my own here. They were very well socialised, never dog or people aggressive up close, but could and did kick up a racket if anyone they didn't know approached the house. I don't know if they would have attacked a burglar/attacker, R wouldn't have but B might.
When we had the original rotter, along with jrts and labs, they lived in a room outside and the only time we had thieves around, they ended up leaving their swag from a previous theft, in sisters car. We presume that the rotter appeared at the window and shouted at them ?

 

[Smitty]

Many years ago I found a dog roaming - a GSD cross and GSD size. He was very protective of me and if he thought there was a problem would sit by me and give a low growl whilst fixing a stare on the would be attacker.

My parents eventually took him on and he had free range of their farm. One day mum opened the back door to put stuff outside and found a strange man standing there. Shocked, she enquired if he had seen a large GSD type dog as he came down the driveway and he said yes, the dog had taken him a stick, he had thrown it and now they were firm friends!! Well, I blame her for calling him Willie Woo ?

I walk miles in the countryside with my small dog and have never felt threatened by a human that I can recall. I often never see anyone. The park across the road is a different matter ...

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I roam the countryside with my little fluffy dogs. I’m no more likely to be attacked in the middle of nowhere than I am in my local village. If I was attacked I have a Bichon that would run, and had a Shitsu that would have been well up for the fight.

A large dog doesn’t make you safer in the middle of nowhere- common sense does ?

I admire your confidence - my lack of bravery is more a result of two friends in my close social group being sexually assaulted in separate incidents in the last two years, rather than a lack of common sense; and only one of the incidents ending in a jail sentence. I don’t feel safe and I would love to be able to walk more, rather than time it when my OH who does shift work and myself are both off work.
I wonder if you would have the gall to roll your eyes and tell the families of the hundreds of rape, sexual assault, robbed, murdered and stalked woman who are the victims of crime every year that they could have avoided it all with a little common sense.

A "w@nkey unsocialised 'oodle", an XL bully, nervy Doberman or aggressive Ridgeback (yes, met the latter two - great ). If I had to choose which of those to meet when I'm out with my dog, it would be the "w@nkey unsocialised 'oodle".

I’m sure you would rather meet my friendly, well socialised and well trained dog over any w@nkey dog.. I don’t see your point? I want someone to see the dog and think twice, not to have a remotely protection trained dog - and if that means using the stereotype to my benefit then I would do it. Yes the two breeds I mentioned in my post can have undesirable breed traits, your uppity comment was toward the use of the dog to feel safe, not those specific breeds so you haven’t really addressed my point remotely.
FWIW on the whole I agree with a lot of your posts, I just don’t get your stance on this one.