Errin Paddywack
Well-Known Member
I think you should try and alert your boss to the possibilities of this dog hurting someone. If you don't and something bad does happen you will never forgive yourself if you haven't said anything.
Caerphilly: Woman, 83, dies after being injured in dog attack
- Thread starter skinnydipper
- Start date
AmyMay
Situation normal
My common sense comment related to the countryside and that being more of a danger than being attacked in it. Ie, don’t deliberately put yourself in harms way by walking near a cliff edge, don’t turn an ankle, don’t walk through a field of bullocks (with your dog), let someone know where you are going.
I don’t walk in towns or villages, I don’t need to. Either way I certainly wouldn’t need a large dog to do so.
I also don’t live my life in fear of what might happen. But I understand the concerns of those who do.
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
I've never chosen any of my dogs to make me feel safe.
My GSD puppy, a birthday gift from OH, because I love the breed. The other 10 needed a home.
I hope that helps.
teacups
Well-Known Member
Och, not sure that was needed - you did explain it not much further on, and it was clear then what you meant. So many people read this forum and inevitably things are read in different ways by different people.
Re your GSD, it sounds as though you were just unfortunate and it really should not have put you off. I’m wondering what the breeder intended to do with the dog if you hadn’t taken him, though?
asmp
Well-Known Member
Just read the following on the BBC:
The mother of a three-month-old girl mauled to death by a husky has admitted being responsible for the out-of-control dog that killed her daughter.
Kyra King was attacked in woodland on 6 March near Woodhall Spa in Lincolnshire as her parents walked 19 dogs.
19 dogs ???
The mother of a three-month-old girl mauled to death by a husky has admitted being responsible for the out-of-control dog that killed her daughter.
Kyra King was attacked in woodland on 6 March near Woodhall Spa in Lincolnshire as her parents walked 19 dogs.
19 dogs ???
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
They were running a pack of huskies, for context.
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
I just removed it as it obviously didn't read as I intended. I didn't mean to offend the poster who thought I was doing a snide remark.
I don't think the breeder had a plan. The dog was just 'different' as in defensive and sharp, even before we picked him up. We did think we would have been able to channel it, as we had done previously with one that a breeder had held back before as they weren't sure of the temperament. That one was devoted and trustworthy, would learn really quickly and was stable. The others we have had led us to believe we knew what we were doing. We have a big premises, with land. The others have enjoyed being out with us, going on outings, going to events including CCI week stays in the lorry. We thought we could shape him, as we had dne the others, but it didn't work out.
The handbag dogs we have now only go to prove we know nothing. They just do as they please. Hekkie and Cracker-Dog rule the whole house. It is all very amicable though. Hex doesn't even sit on command
but is the nicest house companion. Both are sweet and content. I read threads such as these and it actually gives me comfort that, although I feel we failed the wayward GSD dog, at least we didn't allow us and him to become another statistic.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Full disclosure before I begin here: I own a Cane Corso and have been around the breed a fair amount. I also own a Labrador. I am obviously a d***head
Re the original article:
"a large black XL bully cross cane corso breed"
This wording is a word salad. So is the dog actually a Cane Corso? What is a "Cane Corso" breed, it either is one, or it isn't. Is it a cross with one? Does it just look like one? Or is it a XL bully looking dog of unknown origin?
I'd also go and read this article posted by CC, if you haven't:
https://www.westword.com/news/boulder-takes-a-bite-out-of-bad-dog-behavior-5105388
I'm for dogs being tested. My CC comes from tracked and recorded bloodlines that are temperament tested. I think that's a decent start. I think that education is a big one too. I visited a local shelter (in the USA) and they would've basically given me any dog, very few questions asked, just to get them out of there (not all shelters are like this!). So I could've very well taken a young Pit bull/cross home that day, without much of a clue. Said dog could be fine in some homes, but a frustrated disaster in another home, and perhaps become aggressive due to improper management. That and who knows what that dogs breeding was, or how it's parents were. Or even how it's formative years/months were. So a lot of dogs are just set up to fail. Sure it's harder to "fail" with some breeds, but if owners were more educated, we'd see less fails overall.
The easiest, quickest, and most knee jerky thing is to ban the breed. Which, I understand, but do think it's unfortunate for those members of the breed that are really great dogs that belong to really great homes. As with many things, others suffer due to idiots. It would make me a bit sad to see some of these breeds dissappear, and there would likely always be some skeezy underground operations keeping some alive (not in a good way)...and we'd still have idiot owners. Sure they'd own a less "dangerous" breed now, perhaps, but still too idiotic. So a breed ban alone isn't the answer for me.
It's like if I'm an idiot with a weapon, and you take that weapon out of my hand and give me a "less dangerous" weapon, I'm still an idiot with a weapon. At the end of the day I may inflict less damage, but did I really learn anything? Was a mindset changed?
I also feel as though people own these dogs in the wrong context (again, setting them up to fail). I would never own a Cane Corso if I lived in a big crowded city in a tiny flat with no garden. I probably wouldn't own a dog at all. So sometimes dogs are just set up to fail being kept in the wrong living situation alone. Then we throw in the lack of training, exercise, proper socialization, and so on. Some breeds, just as with horses, can take a joke or leave you with more of a margin for error, others don't.
People also just don't know the responsibilities of owning a dog, especially certain breeds. My CC has been in training and socialized since the day she came home. She's not a grown dog yet, so I can't say how the final product will turn out, but she's got a far better chance than those that aren't trained and socialized. It's a huge responsibility that I've put on myself, but I'm dedicated. Humans have come and gone from our home and garden, she's gone to another house, dogs have come over, she's gone over to another house with dogs, she will also go into shops with us, and we just sit and observe people at the park, or on the university campus, as well as interact with them. It takes many hours out of my day sometimes, but it's what I've got to do. I think this should be done with almost every dog, anyway.
I have a large fenced in garden and live outside of town. The whole neighborhood has dogs. There are many social possibilities. This neighborhood is filled with dangerous dogs, if I think about it. We have my Cane Corso, a Pit Bull, Great Dane, Malinois, German Shepherds, Caucasian Ovcharka's, and some other mixes. No incidents to date.
As to the reason(s) why I own a CC: I like the breed, and find some of them to be very attractive dogs that are very loyal, loving, and trainable companions. Sure I value the same things in my Lab, but I do spend a lot of time alone, walk in remote areas (people and wildlife can be threats, if you don't believe that then whatever), and a CC is more off putting. The CC doesn't have to be aggressive at all. I just know that it's a real thing to be or feel vulnerable, especially as a woman, walking or living alone, and if a dog is a deterrent then so be it. I certainly feel safer in some areas than others, and I've seen some and been through some shit in my life, so it shapes my views on things. It's entirely possible that someone's small dog could be far more aggressive than my CC, but mine might make someone with ill intentions that doesn't know her think twice. I'm not trying to be a tough d***head, but it is something that crosses my mind.
I've always had really good experiences with CC's, and hate that there are so many people out there f*cking them up. Maybe they don't have a place in urban homes or most pet homes due to what they were originally bred for, but we could say that about many breeds, really.
I stupidly joined a FB CC group to see what people were up to with theirs, and a vast majority of them are clueless or shouldn't have a CC, let alone a dog. They literally shape their dogs behaviors in a negative way. Some don't, but many do. So this doesn't help the breed at all.
Don't even get me started on ear cropping...
The thing is that if we eliminate Bully breeds or whatever breeds or whatever physical attributes we deem as problematic we will have less incidents, but we've done nothing on truly educating dog owners, creating responsible pet owners and and improving animal welfare in that respect. Sometimes you have to take what you can get, and if it ultimately produces a desired result, then alright, but I'd hate to see many of these breeds die off.
Re the original article:
"a large black XL bully cross cane corso breed"
This wording is a word salad. So is the dog actually a Cane Corso? What is a "Cane Corso" breed, it either is one, or it isn't. Is it a cross with one? Does it just look like one? Or is it a XL bully looking dog of unknown origin?
I'd also go and read this article posted by CC, if you haven't:
https://www.westword.com/news/boulder-takes-a-bite-out-of-bad-dog-behavior-5105388
I'm for dogs being tested. My CC comes from tracked and recorded bloodlines that are temperament tested. I think that's a decent start. I think that education is a big one too. I visited a local shelter (in the USA) and they would've basically given me any dog, very few questions asked, just to get them out of there (not all shelters are like this!). So I could've very well taken a young Pit bull/cross home that day, without much of a clue. Said dog could be fine in some homes, but a frustrated disaster in another home, and perhaps become aggressive due to improper management. That and who knows what that dogs breeding was, or how it's parents were. Or even how it's formative years/months were. So a lot of dogs are just set up to fail. Sure it's harder to "fail" with some breeds, but if owners were more educated, we'd see less fails overall.
The easiest, quickest, and most knee jerky thing is to ban the breed. Which, I understand, but do think it's unfortunate for those members of the breed that are really great dogs that belong to really great homes. As with many things, others suffer due to idiots. It would make me a bit sad to see some of these breeds dissappear, and there would likely always be some skeezy underground operations keeping some alive (not in a good way)...and we'd still have idiot owners. Sure they'd own a less "dangerous" breed now, perhaps, but still too idiotic. So a breed ban alone isn't the answer for me.
It's like if I'm an idiot with a weapon, and you take that weapon out of my hand and give me a "less dangerous" weapon, I'm still an idiot with a weapon. At the end of the day I may inflict less damage, but did I really learn anything? Was a mindset changed?
I also feel as though people own these dogs in the wrong context (again, setting them up to fail). I would never own a Cane Corso if I lived in a big crowded city in a tiny flat with no garden. I probably wouldn't own a dog at all. So sometimes dogs are just set up to fail being kept in the wrong living situation alone. Then we throw in the lack of training, exercise, proper socialization, and so on. Some breeds, just as with horses, can take a joke or leave you with more of a margin for error, others don't.
People also just don't know the responsibilities of owning a dog, especially certain breeds. My CC has been in training and socialized since the day she came home. She's not a grown dog yet, so I can't say how the final product will turn out, but she's got a far better chance than those that aren't trained and socialized. It's a huge responsibility that I've put on myself, but I'm dedicated. Humans have come and gone from our home and garden, she's gone to another house, dogs have come over, she's gone over to another house with dogs, she will also go into shops with us, and we just sit and observe people at the park, or on the university campus, as well as interact with them. It takes many hours out of my day sometimes, but it's what I've got to do. I think this should be done with almost every dog, anyway.
I have a large fenced in garden and live outside of town. The whole neighborhood has dogs. There are many social possibilities. This neighborhood is filled with dangerous dogs, if I think about it. We have my Cane Corso, a Pit Bull, Great Dane, Malinois, German Shepherds, Caucasian Ovcharka's, and some other mixes. No incidents to date.
As to the reason(s) why I own a CC: I like the breed, and find some of them to be very attractive dogs that are very loyal, loving, and trainable companions. Sure I value the same things in my Lab, but I do spend a lot of time alone, walk in remote areas (people and wildlife can be threats, if you don't believe that then whatever), and a CC is more off putting. The CC doesn't have to be aggressive at all. I just know that it's a real thing to be or feel vulnerable, especially as a woman, walking or living alone, and if a dog is a deterrent then so be it. I certainly feel safer in some areas than others, and I've seen some and been through some shit in my life, so it shapes my views on things. It's entirely possible that someone's small dog could be far more aggressive than my CC, but mine might make someone with ill intentions that doesn't know her think twice. I'm not trying to be a tough d***head, but it is something that crosses my mind.
I've always had really good experiences with CC's, and hate that there are so many people out there f*cking them up. Maybe they don't have a place in urban homes or most pet homes due to what they were originally bred for, but we could say that about many breeds, really.
I stupidly joined a FB CC group to see what people were up to with theirs, and a vast majority of them are clueless or shouldn't have a CC, let alone a dog. They literally shape their dogs behaviors in a negative way. Some don't, but many do. So this doesn't help the breed at all.
Don't even get me started on ear cropping...
The thing is that if we eliminate Bully breeds or whatever breeds or whatever physical attributes we deem as problematic we will have less incidents, but we've done nothing on truly educating dog owners, creating responsible pet owners and and improving animal welfare in that respect. Sometimes you have to take what you can get, and if it ultimately produces a desired result, then alright, but I'd hate to see many of these breeds die off.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Also, the irony is not lost on me when horse people are saying the larger the animal, the more damage potential; ban them.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I read it as it's an XL bullie x cane corso. With unnecessary use of the word 'breed'
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
Makes sense.
Sometimes I'm not sure if they are just labeling off of looks, or actually know the dogs breeding though.
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
If a particular horse breed/type starts pitching up in the news on a semi-regular basis having attacked someone to death, then presumably we'll have a rethink. There have certainly been cases of horses which have been discussed where they cannot be managed safely and so PTS needs to be seriously considered before someone does get killed.
I don't feel safe walking my neighbourhood at night, particularly with my own dog, in part because of these types of dogs and the people around here that have them. Certainly where I am some 'scary dog privilege' would be quite nice as a woman living part-time alone but that is not justification to take on a more serious breed when I don't have the experience or ability to meet its needs and keep it safely. It sounds like you put in the work required which is great but if someone is going to take on a dog and not do the work I'd rather it was an annoying doodle type than something with weight, jaws and drive that I would have no chance of defending myself or my dog against.
Ultimately I do just want less incidents. If some education can be part of this then great but some people are wilfully ignorant even when it comes to keeping their own children safe let alone anyone else; in the meantime I'd quite like to minimise the impact of this by limiting their access to excessively large/guarding type dogs to play this ignorance out.
cbmcts
Well-Known Member
I get what you mean I think - a deterrent rather than an actual dog who is going to go into battle for you? That makes sense. If you think about it, we all do various things to avoid harm such as taking the long route home if it's better lit and busier or my locking and alarming our houses and cars when they are unattended.
I have had large guard breeds for many years but the dog I was most confident walking across fields etc was a little JRT X. When she saw someone in the distance or if she thought they were 'hiding' or acting suspiciously, she would bark, point them out and return to me. I then could change my route to avoid them if I wanted to. Somehow she managed to teach all the dogs that followed her to do the same! But if I was walking in a urban area, I'm sure that the rotties are much more of a deterrent and the same at home.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
When I was young German shepherds were the number one dog that was talked about as being aggressive and dangerous as there were a spate of attacks on people, as they got less popular Rotties and Dobermans took over , it would have been wrong to ban any of those breeds , they were just owned by the wrong people who wanted a tough looking dog and they made them aggressive . I don’t know what the answer is with the bull breeds, maybe have a license if you own a dog of a certain breed / size? The trouble is that the people who are intent on having a dangerous dog for the reason of attacking people or other dogs will not comply with any type of law..I don’t find any of the bull breeds attractive as I like pointy nose dogs but many people do and they train them to be friendly and obedient , there is no easy answer
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
It always boils down to people idiots and others (including animals) suffer as a result.
I admit that it's not unreasonable to be wary around some mastiff types when walking in close quarters, and it's being wary of the dog, yes, but ultimately whether or not the owner/walker has carefully selected/bred the dog and trained them well. I personally get being wary of the people and as a result, the dog.
Basically, we can't have nice things because we're idiots.
Some can, but they're the minority.
I've zero qualms about dispatching a dog that just isn't right or is aggressive. Controversial, but I'd dispatch by own if I had to, in order to protect myself and the general public around me. However, if I select, raise, and train the dog right, odds are that I won't ever have to. Again, setting one (and dog) up for success rather than failure.
I've seen many on Instagram literally promoting and encouraging aggressive and other undesirable traits and behaviors in CC's and dogs in general, and it makes my head explode. I hate it.
Nothing wrong with a properly trained guard dog in some contexts, but "trained" and "context" being key words there.
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
It's like, I love Malinois, brilliant dogs, but I do not have that level of employment for one. A CC is easier for me. So I don't get one and admire them from afar. Some people lack that type of thinking and would just get one because they like the look or are impulsive and have to have one. So many buy dogs because they're cute as a pup, want a tough looking animal, or think they're cool. We're creatures of vanity, after all.
SadKen
Well-Known Member
CC, you sound like a responsible owner, but you are the first one I’ve heard of. Exceptions don’t disprove the rule. Not one of the bully or CC owners I’ve ever happened across have given any indication that they have any interest in their dog beyond it being sn intimidating cool weapon.
The people in my area who have these dogs also have them for personal protection. They are a weapon you can display in the street.
I don’t have mine for this reason; someone is more likely to attack and harm my dogs if they want to get to me or my property. They wouldn’t bother if I had a JRT, so the fact mine could be considered intimidating is a big negative for me. It’s why I could never do police dog work, I’d be keeping the dog in the van in case he got hurt and going in myself!
The people in my area who have these dogs also have them for personal protection. They are a weapon you can display in the street.
I don’t have mine for this reason; someone is more likely to attack and harm my dogs if they want to get to me or my property. They wouldn’t bother if I had a JRT, so the fact mine could be considered intimidating is a big negative for me. It’s why I could never do police dog work, I’d be keeping the dog in the van in case he got hurt and going in myself!
stangs
Well-Known Member
In retrospect, both readings were accessible. I was just on the defensive, hence how I perceived it and my response. It's water under the bridge now
stangs
Well-Known Member
This.
The “dangerous” dog breeds have a history and culture behind them as rich and interesting as any other breed. They have skills and brains that other dogs don’t have, and do brilliantly when not expected to live foreign lifestyles.
Bullies are a young breed, so time is still needed for lines to be established, aggressive strains to die out, etc. However, that won’t happen if the breed gets banned, leaving them only being bred by the people who couldn’t care less about the breed standard (“gentle and friendly… an excellent family dog” [x]).
CorvusCorax
'It's only a laugh, no harm done'
I know a guy who shows and does obedience with a Cane Corso, kept natural and looks like a lovely dog.
One of my FB friends in the USA competes with them and German Shepherds. She's a small slight woman and to be honest, a lot of molosser handlers in the USA seem to be women. Don't know what I'm trying to say, except that in other places it's not a 'macho' thing and that you don't have to be built like a brick outhouse to be able to handle them.
I've had the breed I've had my whole life, I didn't get one for any reason other than they've always been there and I know them best and other breeds don't really appeal to me as much and I always try to help improve their reputation by being a responsible owner.
As I live alone and am not huge, the visual deterrent thing isn't awful but it's incidental.
I train in a sport that has a (massively contextual) bitework phase and I severely doubt either of the males would protect me in a real world scenario and that's fine.
(See jogger anecdote).
I prefer to have a partnership with my dogs and don't train in defence drive anyway, as I think it's massively unfair/stressful/highly pressured for a dog.
Imagine walking down the street and constantly thinking 'Is that guy going to hurt or threaten me? What about that one?'
That's what a dog permanently in defence/civil drive feels and it really unbalances them.
Some people have dogs that are this way inclined genetically, but either don't or don't want to see it and do not have the tools or the knowledge to manage it and then the shit hits the fan.
Even worse when the owners are completely blind to it and invite people into the home and have the dog loose.
ETA the vast, vast majority of dogs are not 'protecting' their owners, they are protecting their space and the owner happens to be inside that space, or they are protecting what they perceive to be a resource.
One of my FB friends in the USA competes with them and German Shepherds. She's a small slight woman and to be honest, a lot of molosser handlers in the USA seem to be women. Don't know what I'm trying to say, except that in other places it's not a 'macho' thing and that you don't have to be built like a brick outhouse to be able to handle them.
I've had the breed I've had my whole life, I didn't get one for any reason other than they've always been there and I know them best and other breeds don't really appeal to me as much and I always try to help improve their reputation by being a responsible owner.
As I live alone and am not huge, the visual deterrent thing isn't awful but it's incidental.
I train in a sport that has a (massively contextual) bitework phase and I severely doubt either of the males would protect me in a real world scenario and that's fine.
(See jogger anecdote).
I prefer to have a partnership with my dogs and don't train in defence drive anyway, as I think it's massively unfair/stressful/highly pressured for a dog.
Imagine walking down the street and constantly thinking 'Is that guy going to hurt or threaten me? What about that one?'
That's what a dog permanently in defence/civil drive feels and it really unbalances them.
Some people have dogs that are this way inclined genetically, but either don't or don't want to see it and do not have the tools or the knowledge to manage it and then the shit hits the fan.
Even worse when the owners are completely blind to it and invite people into the home and have the dog loose.
ETA the vast, vast majority of dogs are not 'protecting' their owners, they are protecting their space and the owner happens to be inside that space, or they are protecting what they perceive to be a resource.
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CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
It just depends on the people you know and where you live I guess. I personally know more responsible and decent CC owners than I do the opposite, in person, anyway.
I don't quite follow your logic re a JRT. If your dog gets in the way, and someone wants to hurt or kill them, they will. A person might just kick a little dog to the side, if the little dog persists, they'll still harm it.
Usually if your dog is more intimidating I would think that someone would be less likely to mess with you or them?
I don't disagree that people use dogs as weapons or display them as a weapon. I'm ok with someone feeling more comfortable leaving their house with a large dog, or knowing that their dogs presence may deter people or discourage people from messing with them, but I don't like the whole weapon on display macho ego thing.
I know someone that has 3 CC's that are often in their courtyard/garden, I think they'd deter someone from entering uninvited or make them think twice, which maybe the owner recognizes, but she ultimately loves the dog and the breed. They're very affectionate, trainable, and good all around dogs for her. Now if she stuck them in the courtyard, didn't train them, and bragged about them doing aggressive things/demonstrating aggressive behaviors, I wouldn't be down with that.
Crugeran Celt
Well-Known Member
I agree, just don't know who would want to own a dog like this. There was a programme on a week or so ago about the clipping of the ears as some celebrity had posted photos of her dog that had clipped ears and she tried to defend herself by saying she had imported it and wasn't aware that it hadn't been born like that. Just how ignorant can you be when purchasing a dog and why oh why would anyone import a dog without even reading up on the breed? I think the sooner these breeds are banned the better and the consequences for the owner of a dog that attacks should be much more severe.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
This completely. The owners of these dogs are as guilty as someone who shoots or stabs someone. Manslaughter at the very least.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
Imo, it should not be legal to import a dog with cropped ears into the UK. That would stop anyone saying that their dog had had its ears cropped abroad when in reality it had been done illegally here. Any dogs with cropped ears should be confiscated and pts to stop the practice.
Christmascinnamoncookie
Fais pas chier!
Bit harsh! I met a beautiful gsd with very badly done cropped ears, she had been sent out of Ukraine when the war began. She was adorable, god knows what her fate would have been without being imported.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Agreed that importing dogs with cropped ears should be illegal. I don't think it'd be too difficult to police, as many of them come from the US and you can't not go through official channels when bringing a dog across the pond. Putting the dogs to sleep would be a step too far though. Not the dog's fault that their ears got cropped.
.
The Xmas Furry
🦄 🦄
Very harsh.
My sister in law took on a cropped ear rescue dobie x rott type in France, sweetest natured dog. Of course when she returned to England, he came too. He's been over here since just before lockdown in March 2020, gets on really well with brothers S&R french Briard x and accompanies P dog around whenever we meet.
You would want him destroyed then?
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
The trouble is, if there is no come back against cropped ears people are going to continue to do it here in the UK with scissors. Which I would guess is where an awful lot of cropped ears dogs get them done. Claim it’s an import or a rescue and suddenly all mutilations are acceptable because you ‘saved the dog’. So I agree pts cropped ears sounds extreme but what’s an alternative? Just continue to passively encourage any idiot with a pair of shears and an aggressive type dog?
skinnydipper
Well-Known Member
Docked and cropped Dobies and Cane Corso are imported from Eastern Europe and sold on UK sites.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
And it should stop from today, and anyone out with a cropped ear dog should have to provide a vet cert to show the dog was imported prior to the date of legislation. Imo.