Can a dog that killed a sheep be trusted around horses?

MCP030405

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I'm in a bit of a pickle both with my horses and with my family relationships.

My Sisters dog escaped the other night and apparently killed 2 sheep on their farm.

The farm is owned by my parents, I keep my 3 horses there and my sister lives there in a seperate house with my BIL with their 2 dogs.

We found on 2 weeks ago that one of the dogs can escape her courtyard and will chase sheep - the dog has been under lock and key for 2 weeks since she did this.

I was already arranging for a fence to be put up that will keep them enclosed because I dislike dog poo being on the stable block and the dogs going up to the stables because my mare is bitey. They would bark at the horses when we're riding, and have caused a few spooks which luckily haven't caused a fall yet. So the fence is going up literally tomorrow (booked in for weeks), with a nice 4m gate so we can still move vehicles through if needed. I've paid thousands.

I say apparently killed because we have no "proof", but my sister stupidly didn't keep an eye on her and we found her outside the courtyard in the fields and 2 hours later found 2 dying sheep and about 5 mauled ones - it was an obvious dog attack. I spoke to the sheep owner and have been trying to help as much as I can. It was traumatic, I was holding these poor dying sheep, I've barely slept since this happened and for some reason i've taken the brunt of trying to sort this, whilst also being screamed at by my other half.

They want to move the horses ASAP, I disagree because A) we can't really afford livery for 3 bloody horses right now and b) I've paid for this fence which will mean they can not get into the stable block. I also spent £4k last month putting up manege lights, I don't want this all to be wasted. Its just us and at our last yards nothing was ever good enough for him anyway, I think he'll find fault anywhere we go.

My sister is sending her dogs for training, has offered to pay the farmer for all their financial losses and has to walk the culprit through the farm/fields on a lead. I feel like she's showing enough remorse, a police report has been made and as a family we're taking steps to make sure this is never going to happen again. Sister is even considering moving out if these measures don't work, or if she feels she can't be at the farm anymore.

The issue my other half has brought up is that the dogs (to access the fields) will need to walk across the stable block, but again, on a lead, and then walked in the fields (ON A LEAD) the other side of the farm to the horses (with a 65 metre long brick building between also). I don't see a risk here if my sister follows the rules, and she's so scared by it all that I can't see her breaking them, she's lost so much trust in her dog.

I hate that this has happened, i've been a mess for days, but my horses are so settled, my mare has never been such a nice horse as she is here, it's just the 3 of them. The farm is stunning and irreplaceable and I feel like although the dogs can't be trusted around the sheep/cattle ever again, they have never made a play for the horses, they sit in front of the stables wagging their tails but now nobody trusts them at all.

I'm shattered, i'm gutted and I'm apparently condoning "sheep murder" because I don't want to leave my family's farm and go low contact with my sister for being a bloody idiot. I don't agree with what she's done but it is done and now we move on and fix things.

I wanted to see what other horse and dog people think about it all.

Would you move from the farm in my situation?

I think we wait and see how the situation changes with the fence i've paid for and the changes Sister will make with her training and leashing of the dogs.

The only issues my other half had before this attack was the barking / running up and down the manege fence during riding, and the dog poo they'd leave (which the fence was being built to stop). Now he hates my sister for letting her dog out and me by extension for not wanting to cause a huge rift in my family and pulling the horses out with nowhere to go in 48 hours.

He's saying he's going to lock up the gates i've paid for so sister can't walk her dogs through the fields at all and me not seeing it as an issue is me being an enabler of "sheep murder". I don't want to kick my sister whilst she's down.

I don't see this as a reason to move, but as a reason to be wary and careful with the dogs, but we'd already planned seperating the stable block anyway.
 

YourValentine

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Didn't want to read and run, no ideas nor experience to share sorry but sounds like a very difficult situation all round.

I hope things calm down in few days and the new measures work for everyone.
 

sportsmansB

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If sister was another random member of the public who lived adjacent, you'd have to put up with the potential of the dogs still being around.
I don't think chasing / hurting sheep necessarily means moving onto horses is inevitable.
I'd prob be encouraging sister to re-evaulate her own situation - I can't imagine living in the country with dogs I couldn't trust, no matter how careful you are they can always slip past.

Is your OH happy at the family place? It sounds like hes maybe latched onto this a bit strong tbh
 

Snowfilly

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I wouldn’t leave the dog there, it’s too dangerous around sheep, too much of a risk. I’d either re home, PTS or move.

I wouldn’t move my horses at all, assuming it isn’t some bull type breed a horse can normally kick off a dog ok, albeit sometimes killing the dog in the process.

I would then kick the OH out, he doesn’t get to dictate where your horses live and he shouldn’t scream at you all. That sounds mad on his part.
 

SpotsandBays

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I disagree with your partner too. He is not helping the situation at all and I really feel for you having to deal with this situation. I’ve seen a mauled sheep (not awful but she still lost her life) and it is really jarring.

Personally I wouldn’t move the horses, it sounds like you’ve got some measures in place to prevent them coming near anyway - however I wouldn’t be comfortable with that dog around sheep at all. At the very least it needs to be muzzled whenever it is not in the house, but even then that doesn’t mean that it couldn’t worry sheep if it did get loose.
 

Annagain

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Your sister made a mistake and it sounds like she's already punishing herself more than you or your OH ever could, what good would 'going low contact' do? If she showed no remorse and wasn't taking steps to prevent it happening again, I could understand it but that's not what's happening here. I'm a bit concerned that your OH thinks this is something to ruin a family's relationships over or that she needs to be 'punished' in this way and that you're the person to do that.

I do agree with FC that rehoming the dog or your sister moving away from the farm would probably be necessary as I don't think it would be a very relaxing situation for anyone to have the dog that close to livestock and she's not going to have a great life always having to be on a lead even at home but I don't think the horses would be at risk at all.

Are the horses yours or his or both of yours? I'd be telling him he can move his horse if he wants to but you won't be moving yours. If the farm belongs to your parents and you're there with their permission I think they need to step in here as well and tell him your sister has as much right to be there as he does so under no circumstances is he to lock gates to prevent her from accessing the fields.
 
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MCP030405

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I don't think the horses are likely at risk, but I do think it's not sustainable for a dog that has killed livestock to live so close to that livestock.

In your sister's shoes I'd be either rehoming or otherwise the dog or moving.
I agree, I think the horses won't be hurt, they've escaped into the horse field once and lay in the sun next to them, I think the dog experienced something with livestock and now cant be trusted around the sheep again, but it doesn't change who she is fundamentally with people and other animals she's already proven safe with.

I don't think they'd rehome, she's only 15 months old and is my sisters world, I do think they'd move before that being the option, and I couldn't blame them, my parents are equally furious and can't look at sister for letting it happen, and sister rents from them.
 

JBM

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Once a dog kills a sheep it will continue to try when it sees sheep. This dog will never stop now.
He can be rehomed if they are told the dog is a risk to livestock otherwise can never be off a lead unless fully enclosed securely.

The dog isn’t a threat to horses as a horse is more likely to kill the dog but your horses aren’t safe from the dog trying.
 

SpotsandBays

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As a keeper of sheep, the dog should be put to sleep imo. I get that dogs can get out, but sister appears to have done sweet fa about following it, totally irresponsible. If you have a dog that can't be trusted round livestock, then you ensure that your yard/ garden is absolutely dog proof.
As sad as it is, I agree. The sheep I had to deal with was from a repeat offender. I don’t know if there is a way to train it out of them once it’s done, especially on that level.
 

MCP030405

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I wouldn’t leave the dog there, it’s too dangerous around sheep, too much of a risk. I’d either re home, PTS or move.

I wouldn’t move my horses at all, assuming it isn’t some bull type breed a horse can normally kick off a dog ok, albeit sometimes killing the dog in the process.

I would then kick the OH out, he doesn’t get to dictate where your horses live and he shouldn’t scream at you all. That sounds mad on his part.
She is a rottweiler, albiet the smallest one i've ever seen, she's about 30kilo
 

MCP030405

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If sister was another random member of the public who lived adjacent, you'd have to put up with the potential of the dogs still being around.
I don't think chasing / hurting sheep necessarily means moving onto horses is inevitable.
I'd prob be encouraging sister to re-evaulate her own situation - I can't imagine living in the country with dogs I couldn't trust, no matter how careful you are they can always slip past.

Is your OH happy at the family place? It sounds like hes maybe latched onto this a bit strong tbh
He's not my sisters biggest fan because she's always been the golden child and has gotten away with a lot in the past. I don't really care about any of that though, she's my sister and i've never felt unloved by my family, just that she gets away with more.

I thought he was, we've been having a great time not having to pay livery etc, but clearly not. I know he hates the drive, our livery was 600 yards from home and now we're 15 minutes away, BUT 300 yards from work (we all work in the family business) so it's the same but flipped around
 

ihatework

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No I wouldn’t move at all.

Whilst distressing it happened, it sounds like dog owner taking it very seriously, you have made your own safeguards.

I wouldn’t trust a dog that has shown a chase/attack around horses, ever, but at the same time sheep attack doesn’t 100% translate to horse attack either. Plus if it tried dog would likely come off worse anyway.
 

Mrs. Jingle

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A very complex and difficult situation and not something I feel able to to offer any sensible advice on. But one thing has occured to me, did this dog have any signs of being bloodied around its chest or face area?

When my dogs attacked sheep, they had come in from a neighbouring farm onto my land so not my fault but very distressing all the same. I very quickly managed to get the three of them off one particular sheep that they had taken down, and all three dogs were covered in streaks of blood and random bits of sheep wool despite only being on full attack for a few minutes? If this dog is the guilty party the carnage you describe would surely have made it very obvious he was the offender. If he looked as clean as a whistle I would not be too sure it was him.
 

KittenInTheTree

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The dogs aren't your responsibility, OP. Yes, it would be sensible for them to be removed from the area or at least kept leashed and muzzled going forwards, yes, it's horrible about the poor sheep, and no, they shouldn't have been allowed to run loose barking and toileting all over the place to begin with, but they are still NOT your responsibility. Does your OH do other things to try to isolate you from friends and family? Is he controlling in general? Does he scream and shout at other people or is he able to keep his temper around them? Frankly he's showing an extreme response to an event that was NOTHING to do with you or him (unless one of you let the dog out?), and I find it very odd.
 

Pearlsasinger

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The dog needs to be pts imho. OH needs to get a grip. The horses are unlikely to be at risk. I think it is the sheep smell that makes some dogs attack them. I'm really not sure why OP is being held responsible for someone else's dog attacking sheep. Sister should have sorted out secure fencing as soon as she knew that her dog could get out. I love Rotties but they need responsible owners.
 

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She is a rottweiler, albiet the smallest one i've ever seen, she's about 30kilo
She still has growing to do and has already shown her very high prey drive. We had a 50kg rotter who was not stock steady. She was never allowed out of our secure yard unless on a lead, or in a secure dog walking field. We used a long line of off our own land. This dog should never have been able to have a second go at sheep.
 

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I wouldn't move my horses, it's a tragic event and people (OH) say things as a knee jerk reaction.
I would wait for the fencing to go up and reassess.

Your sister does sound mortified by the event, I would give her the benefit to see if she is taking responsibility and keeping the dog under control, including muzzle. She may even start looking to re-home (or PTS) it herself, rather than being 'forced' to re-home, where she may always feel 'the family' pushed her into making this decision and further ruin the family dynamics, awkward, especially if you all work together.
 

MCP030405

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A very complex and difficult situation and not something I feel able to to offer any sensible advice on. But one thing has occured to me, did this dog have any signs of being bloodied around its chest or face area?

When my dogs attacked sheep, they had come in from a neighbouring farm onto my land so not my fault but very distressing all the same. I very quickly managed to get the three of them off one particular sheep that they had taken down, and all three dogs were covered in streaks of blood and random bits of sheep wool despite only being on full attack for a few minutes? If this dog is the guilty party the carnage you describe would surely have made it very obvious he was the offender. If he looked as clean as a whistle I would not be too sure it was him.

I wasnt there.
Sister isn't telling me but I would assume she found something on the dog from the fact she went looking to check on the sheep. I got a call at 7pm from my BIL (who seemed to be in shock) asking me to come help as they'd found sheep in the ravine at the bottom of the farm. I live about 15 mins away and arrived to find sister, BIL and a family friend in the water, dragging bleeding sheep out. I have the owners number so called him and he came and helped and we walked the land finding areas with wool everywhere and injured sheep. I didn't know it was anything to do with the dog until then. It was awful.

I don't want to harrass sister but she's offered to pay the farmer and he's making a police report, so To me, she's admitted it's her dog and we're acting accordingly to keep her contained.

Myself and my parents don't know how she can stay at the farm now, but sister wants to try to send her for training and then fortify the courtyard to stop her escaping, then go from there with long term plans
 

MCP030405

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She still has growing to do and has already shown her very high prey drive. We had a 50kg rotter who was not stock steady. She was never allowed out of our secure yard unless on a lead, or in a secure dog walking field. We used a long line of off our own land. This dog should never have been able to have a second go at sheep.
She shouldnt.
We found out about the sheep thing 2 weeks ago when sister and BIL went away for the weekend and parents were left with the dogs to look after. Dog chased the sheep and luckily was caught, parents forbade both dogs from being out without supervision from then knowing my fence was being built this week (so it would be 2 weeks total of prison for them). Sister didn't believe how scary it was for my parents and because shes an idiot who does act like she knows best, left them out and this has happened exactly how my parents anticipated.
 

Mrs. Jingle

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I don't want to harrass sister but she's offered to pay the farmer and he's making a police report

I don't want to be the harbinger of doom but if the dog is being reported to police by the farmer, and your sister has quite clearly admitted to the farmer it was her dog, then surely this will all end with an order for the dog to be euthanised anyway? And frankly I now suspect it probably was this dog then I think PTS is the only solution that is possible if your sister intends to stay where she is.
 

Annagain

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Does your OH do other things to try to isolate you from friends and family? Is he controlling in general? Does he scream and shout at other people or is he able to keep his temper around them? Frankly he's showing an extreme response to an event that was NOTHING to do with you or him (unless one of you let the dog out?), and I find it very odd.
This is what I was hinting (more subtly) at with my response but you have said it so much better KITT.
 

MCP030405

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I think the dog needs to be muzzled whenever out of the house too, it’s too easy for it to slip the lead and still cause serious harm
I used to muzzle my reactive collie just in case - Sister thought I was a cruel idiot.
The rottie now has a harness
I don't want to be the harbinger of doom but if the dog is being reported to police by the farmer, and your sister has quite clearly admitted to the farmer it was her dog, then surely this will all end with an order for the dog to be euthanised anyway? And frankly I now suspect it probably was this dog then I think PTS is the only solution that is possible if your sister intends to stay where she is.
I was under the impression a farmer can only shoot a dog if caught in the act with no control, I haven't read anywhere that the police will euthanise? I hope thats not the case as the dog is a loved family pet, who we now know can never be trusted on the farm, but she's never posed a danger before, my sister has rabbits and a cat, she's grown up with them
 

MCP030405

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Your sister made a mistake and it sounds like she's already punishing herself more than you or your OH ever could, what good would 'going low contact' do? If she showed no remorse and wasn't taking steps to prevent it happening again, I could understand it but that's not what's happening here. I'm a bit concerned that your OH thinks this is something to ruin a family's relationships over or that she needs to be 'punished' in this way and that you're the person to do that.

I do agree with FC that rehoming the dog or your sister moving away from the farm would probably be necessary as I don't think it would be a very relaxing situation for anyone to have the dog that close to livestock and she's not going to have a great life always having to be on a lead even at home but I don't think the horses would be at risk at all.

Are the horses yours or his or both of yours? I'd be telling him he can move his horse if he wants to but you won't be moving yours. If the farm belongs to your parents and you're there with their permission I think they need to step in here as well and tell him your sister has as much right to be there as he does so under no circumstances is he to lock gates to prevent her from accessing the fields.
i agree that my sister has as much of a right to the fields, I don't know why he think's we're owed them, as long as she doesn't go into the side where the horses are and now keeps the dogs secure, i don't see an issue.
 
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