Can a dog that killed a sheep be trusted around horses?

[Ddandy]

A rottweiler escaped from a neighbouring house and killed my aunt's pony. It caused so much damage that the pony could not be saved. It had previously killed sheep.

If that dog had been put down after the first kill the pony would still be alive.

Personally I would not trust a rottweiler who has killed sheep, plural, to be around livestock of any breed, including horses. Rottweilers were originally cattle dogs and the size of a horse is not a deterrent.

The livestock owner can proceed with civil and criminal prosecution. There are fines and costs. I believe that the livestock owner can also request that the dog is destroyed.

The National Sheep Society provides support and legal advice to farmers who have lost stock or had stock worried by dog(s).

Your partner is a whole different problem. Please seek help because that is not acceptable behaviour or treatment.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I haven't read anywhere that the police will euthanise?

I have no idea if reporting to the police would end in PTS, but I had assumed it would? Of course the police or court would never give the farmer go ahead to just shoot the dog! It would certainly be more a case of dog being impounded and then humanely destroyed by someone (a vet?) qualified to do so.

 

[MCP030405]

The dogs aren't your responsibility, OP. Yes, it would be sensible for them to be removed from the area or at least kept leashed and muzzled going forwards, yes, it's horrible about the poor sheep, and no, they shouldn't have been allowed to run loose barking and toileting all over the place to begin with, but they are still NOT your responsibility.

Neither of us let dog out, I just helped with trying to save some of the sheep when they were found, so no, not us or our responsibility it happened

 

[MCP030405]

A rottweiler escaped from a neighbouring house and killed my aunt's pony. It caused so much damage that the pony could not be saved. It had previously killed sheep.

If that dog had been put down after the first kill the pony would still be alive.

Personally I would not trust a rottweiler who has killed sheep, plural, to be around livestock of any breed, including horses. Rottweilers were originally cattle dogs and the size of a horse is not a deterrent.

The livestock owner can proceed with civil and criminal prosecution. There are fines and costs. I believe that the livestock owner can also request that the dog is destroyed.

The National Sheep Society provides support and legal advice to farmers who have lost stock or had stock worried by dog(s).

Your partner is a whole different problem. Please seek help because that is not acceptable behaviour or treatment.

My dad thinks the same.
Sister can't bare to let her pet go and knows this is all her fault.

It's a mess.
I think sister should move personally, but I think she wants to try to dog proof the courtyard and send them to be trained first, to see if she can stay and keep her dog.
I don't want to move my horses because of it, I was building the fence anyway to stop them entering the stable block (which is also where you access the fields)

 

[maya2008]

I think you need to talk to your parents for a plan regarding her walking in your fields or not. As far as risk goes, a dog that has STARTED to attack livestock can easily escalate, and a dog large enough to maul sheep can easily pull away from its owner, especially in a harness. Horses are big but their legs are very very vulnerable. The dog needs to be muzzled and on a lead whenever out of the house. If she can't be trusted to keep in on lead and muzzled, and your parents insist she should be allowed to walk it through the fields (or she ignores them if they say no) then you'll have to move the horses.

I've had a Rottweiler go for my ponies - luckily it went for the least tolerant of the bunch and got a square kick to the head hard enough to give it concussion and leave a mark. That Rottweiler had NEVER drawn blood, yet still its owner kept it muzzled and didn't walk it in fields after that. I wouldn't trust one that had. Sorry.

I have also known a child attacked by a Rottweiler, who was facially scarred for life. The dog was destroyed after the attack, but they'd known it was aggressive, thought it'd be ok with their own children as it had always been fine before. Then one day it wasn't. Lovely girl I was on a yard with years ago. For the rest of her life though, she'll bear the marks of 'but I love my dog, he won't hurt x' until one day he did.

If that was my dog, it'd have been pts the next day, much loved or not.

 

[Lilly-Mayspookatbags]

I feel for your sister and I have been in a similar situation.

I have a reactive dog. Potential / Past bite risk as she has a natural prey drive. Similar size ( about 30kg )

She’s still around my horses and friends horses . Still goes off her lead around animals and livestock. Also reactive with strangers.

Key things:
- Muzzled around things I know may trigger her to reduce the risk . Muzzle punches hurt but far better than a bite.
- Field with chicken wire so she can have a good run (in the early stages whilst still training)
- Lunge line on a harness attached to something if she’s out but not supervised.

And the most important thing - boundaries and perfect recall.

I can take her into a field and if she does have a moment of poor judgement I can very easily redirect her or recall her. It did take 4/5 months of trial and error to get her like this.

People are very quick to say rehome , PTS, move away … but unless you are in that situation you don’t know.

Lots of good Facebook groups for reactive dogs and advice on what to do.

Ignore the people who clearly haven’t been in a situation like this. Your sister will be feeling a lot of emotions and it is very isolating.

 

[MuddyMonster]

The dogs aren't your responsibility, OP. Yes, it would be sensible for them to be removed from the area or at least kept leashed and muzzled going forwards, yes, it's horrible about the poor sheep, and no, they shouldn't have been allowed to run loose barking and toileting all over the place to begin with, but they are still NOT your responsibility. Does your OH do other things to try to isolate you from friends and family? Is he controlling in general? Does he scream and shout at other people or is he able to keep his temper around them? Frankly he's showing an extreme response to an event that was NOTHING to do with you or him (unless one of you let the dog out?), and I find it very odd.

Your sister made a mistake and it sounds like she's already punishing herself more than you or your OH ever could, what good would 'going low contact' do? If she showed no remorse and wasn't taking steps to prevent it happening again, I could understand it but that's not what's happening here. I'm a bit concerned that your OH thinks this is something to ruin a family's relationships over or that she needs to be 'punished' in this way and that you're the person to do that.

I do agree with FC that rehoming the dog or your sister moving away from the farm would probably be necessary as I don't think it would be a very relaxing situation for anyone to have the dog that close to livestock and she's not going to have a great life always having to be on a lead even at home but I don't think the horses would be at risk at all.

Are the horses yours or his or both of yours? I'd be telling him he can move his horse if he wants to but you won't be moving yours. If the farm belongs to your parents and you're there with their permission I think they need to step in here as well and tell him your sister has as much right to be there as he does so under no circumstances is he to lock gates to prevent her from accessing the fields.

Ditto this.

I'd be reinforcing the fencing & muzzling the dog temporarily & kicking the boyfriend out permenantly for his part to play in all of this. And not necessarily in that order!

Long term, I do think moving away if your sister wants to keep the dog would be a wise consideration and I wouldn't blame anyone for choosing to PTS the dog.

Thoughts to you all though as it sounds a terribly stressful situation for everyone.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I feel for your sister and I have been in a similar situation.

I have a reactive dog. Potential / Past bite risk as she has a natural prey drive. Similar size ( about 30kg )

She’s still around my horses and friends horses . Still goes off her lead around animals and livestock. Also reactive with strangers.

Key things:
- Muzzled around things I know may trigger her to reduce the risk . Muzzle punches hurt but far better than a bite.
- Field with chicken wire so she can have a good run (in the early stages whilst still training)
- Lunge line on a harness attached to something if she’s out but not supervised.

And the most important thing - boundaries and perfect recall.

I can take her into a field and if she does have a moment of poor judgement I can very easily redirect her or recall her. It did take 4/5 months of trial and error to get her like this.

People are very quick to say rehome , PTS, move away … but unless you are in that situation you don’t know.

Lots of good Facebook groups for reactive dogs and advice on what to do.

Ignore the people who clearly haven’t been in a situation like this. Your sister will be feeling a lot of emotions and it is very isolating.

I have had Rottweilers and also keep sheep. We found that 1 of our Rotts would attack sheep (fortunately with no sheep harmed). We *never* let her get the chance again. Our yard/garden is fenced to be dog proof, so that she could NOT escape and she was only ever let off a lead/longline in a secure field with 6' fencing. So I certainly do know what I am talking about when I say this dog should be pts. I reason for that is that it doesn't seem to me that sister can be relied on to keep the dog safe.

 

[MCP030405]

I think you need to talk to your parents for a plan regarding her walking in your fields or not. As far as risk goes, a dog that has STARTED to attack livestock can easily escalate, and a dog large enough to maul sheep can easily pull away from its owner, especially in a harness. Horses are big but their legs are very very vulnerable. The dog needs to be muzzled and on a lead whenever out of the house. If she can't be trusted to keep in on lead and muzzled, and your parents insist she should be allowed to walk it through the fields (or she ignores them if they say no) then you'll have to move the horses.

I've had a Rottweiler go for my ponies - luckily it went for the least tolerant of the bunch and got a square kick to the head hard enough to give it concussion and leave a mark. That Rottweiler had NEVER drawn blood, yet still its owner kept it muzzled and didn't walk it in fields after that. I wouldn't trust one that had. Sorry.

I have also known a child attacked by a Rottweiler, who was facially scarred for life. The dog was destroyed after the attack, but they'd known it was aggressive, thought it'd be ok with their own children as it had always been fine before. Then one day it wasn't. Lovely girl I was on a yard with years ago. For the rest of her life though, she'll bear the marks of 'but I love my dog, he won't hurt x' until one day he did.

If that was my dog, it'd have been pts the next day, much loved or not.

Parents are fine with her being in the field as long as the rottie is on a lead. We've spoken about muzzling her also, although my mother isn't keen on them, but i'm a big lover of better safe than sorry as I had a reactive collie, so he was always muzzled out the house.

My dad is very old school and calling for her to be PTS, my mum doesn't want that at all. Sister and BIL obviously feel the same as Mum.

I personally don't want her to be PTS but i also know a lot needs to be done to keep things safe and my sister needs to stick to whatever is agreed, and she's a bit flaky so may not. The dog is only 15 months old and I don't know if sister will stick at keeping her on a lead and muzzle for YEARS.

I'm concerned with it all.

 

[webble]

My dad thinks the same.
Sister can't bare to let her pet go and knows this is all her fault.

It's a mess.
I think sister should move personally, but I think she wants to try to dog proof the courtyard and send them to be trained first, to see if she can stay and keep her dog.
I don't want to move my horses because of it, I was building the fence anyway to stop them entering the stable block (which is also where you access the fields)

Could you swap houses with your sister? Meaning you're closer to the horses

 

[Horseysheepy]

As sheep farmers, my partner and I's worst nightmare is a dog attack.

My concern going forwards is if this dog or any dog that has tasted blood, was to turn it's attention on a young child. I do believe that if they've done it once, they'll do it again.

 

[rextherobber]

Was about to suggest a house swap too!

I don't think your sister sounds a very responsible dog owner, she's allowed the dogs to run around the arena fence, not picked up dog poo, and allowed a dog that she knew worried sheep the chance to attack again. I'm another in the pts camp, I think the owner is not responsible enough, and unfortunately it's the dog that pays the price. Your sister cannot undo the damage done, but she can 100% stop it happening again.

 

[MCP030405]

I have had Rottweilers and also keep sheep. We found that 1 of our Rotts would attack sheep (fortunately with no sheep harmed). We *never* let her get the chance again. Our yard/garden is fenced to be dog proof, so that she could NOT escape and she was only ever let off a lead/longline in a secure field with 6' fencing. So I certainly do know what I am talking about when I say this dog should be pts. I reason for that is that it doesn't seem to me that sister can be relied on to keep the dog safe.

My new fence is 5ft to keep her in the courtyard, but I can add spikes to the top if needed or something?

all the fields have wire fencing, she could easily get through.

My OH is sticking to "The horses aren't safe" but I just disagree if things are secured.

 

[Lilly-Mayspookatbags]

I have had Rottweilers and also keep sheep. We found that 1 of our Rotts would attack sheep (fortunately with no sheep harmed). We *never* let her get the chance again. Our yard/garden is fenced to be dog proof, so that she could NOT escape and she was only ever let off a lead/longline in a secure field with 6' fencing. So I certainly do know what I am talking about when I say this dog should be pts. I reason for that is that it doesn't seem to me that sister can be relied on to keep the dog safe.

You’ve got the knowledge to put the precautions in place . I’m guessing you learnt that the one dog couldn’t be near sheep through a bad experience…..

Hopefully the sister learns and prevents this from happening again. If she isn’t responsible then yes fully agree dog should be PTS sadly.

Parents are fine with her being in the field as long as the rottie is on a lead. We've spoken about muzzling her also, although my mother isn't keen on them, but i'm a big lover of better safe than sorry as I had a reactive collie, so he was always muzzled out the house.

My dad is very old school and calling for her to be PTS, my mum doesn't want that at all. Sister and BIL obviously feel the same as Mum.

I personally don't want her to be PTS but i also know a lot needs to be done to keep things safe and my sister needs to stick to whatever is agreed, and she's a bit flaky so may not. The dog is only 15 months old and I don't know if sister will stick at keeping her on a lead and muzzle for YEARS.

I'm concerned with it all.

15 months is still very young and easy to train and influence. A good dog trainer should be first port of call or even a behaviourist.

 

[MCP030405]

15 months is still very young and easy to train and influence. A good dog trainer should be first port of call or even a behaviourist.

Sister has booked both her dogs in with a trainer now, just in case.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

My new fence is 5ft to keep her in the courtyard, but I can add spikes to the top if needed or something?

all the fields have wire fencing, she could easily get through.

My OH is sticking to "The horses aren't safe" but I just disagree if things are secured.

I'm sorry, but 5ft isn't high enough for a Rott, mine would have gone over that, and indeed did so when a friend had her for the day. Fortunately it was only into the vegetable garden, but I had told her that at 18 months the bitch could get up a timber stable wall of 8ft till i put chicken wire in the eaves.

My opinion, which doesn't count for much, would be 2 options only. Either sister has dog pts or she moves away from farmland but still muzzles dog outside.

 

[rabatsa]

Not what your sister would want to hear but I have zero tolerance for livestock worrying dogs. The owner has allowed the dog to be put in this position and should rectify matters pdq. I have had to pts dogs which got into sheep and cattle. I have high prey drive dogs, GSD and greyhound but they NEVER are allowed near livestock without leads as a minimum and muzzles when needed.

It is rare that just using an outside trainer will put the dog in a position where it will not chase sheep again.

 

[twiggy2]

Its a tricky one, I would be expecting your sister to dog proof her garden (I would have expected that after the dog being at the fence when you are riding and the dog crap everywhere) and if the dog is out of the garden it must be on a lead.
I would then be stock fencing my fields .
Not sure why you are sorting and paying for fencing if its her dog causing the trouble.
Yes its highly likely the dog attacked the sheep but there is an element of doubt.
The dog will go for sheep again, it's very satisfying and rewarding for a dog to carry out that sort of act it may or may not start to see horses as prey if they are running around its usually the flightless of sheep that draw the dogs attention.
Just because a dog has bitten sheep does not mean it will bite a child.
My lurcher maz is not safe with sheep, I am a full time shepherd living on an estate with sheep all around me, she is walked daily offlead and unmuzzled but only in secure areas, she is reliable with sheep in trailers and the sheds but not on open ground or fields, in the fields we would probably be able to control her but it's a risk I won't take, it's not worth it.
I live on a 17000 acre hill estate and she is never offlead outside of a securley fenced area, if we go for a walk on the hill she is on lead always.
Will your sister be reliable enough for that?

 

[dottylottie]

can’t comment on anything re the dog, but i wouldn’t move my horses off. i’d make sure there was absolutely no access to the horses fields for the dogs, but i’d be fairly reassured that a horse can kick off a dog, and i think it’s worth taking into account that horses generally have people around them often, and they’re also usually sane enough to allow people to help them - im assuming the sheep aren’t humanised, if it’s a working farm? much more difficult to help a sheep who’s terrified of both people and the dog!

 

[skinnydipper]

My concern going forwards is if this dog or any dog that has tasted blood, was to turn it's attention on a young child.

Nothing to do with tasting blood. The dog gets a buzz from chasing sheep

 

[CorvusCorax]

Managed to keep very high-prey driven German Shepherds, who would absolutely have chased if allowed, in the middle of sheep country, across the road from field full of sheep for many years, utilising leashes, secure dog runs (WITH A ROOF!!) and a bit of sense/never letting one's guard down. Ever.

Dogs can generally distinguish between sheep, horses and small children. My much smaller than 30kg female has scaled 6ft several times.

Rehome the OH.

 

[SEL]

Good luck with keeping a rottweiler on a lead if it wants to go - I've seen one pull a grown man over. That one had started to go for horses legs (their own horses) and didn't stop even after a well placed kick. Cancer took that dog quite young and they kept it muzzled away from their property.

Horrific for you to witness OP. I think it sounds like you're sorting fencing so personally I'd want to make sure your sister never walks the dog "horse side" of the fence and if that can be managed I'd stay where you are

I have a feeling your sister might not get any choice in PTS though now the police are involved. Is she compensating the farmer?

 

[ycbm]

The only issues my other half had before this attack was the barking / running up and down the manege fence during riding, and the dog poo they'd leave (which the fence was being built to stop). Now he hates my sister for letting her dog out and me by extension for not wanting to cause a huge rift in my family and pulling the horses out with nowhere to go in 48 hours.

He's saying he's going to lock up the gates i've paid for so sister can't walk her dogs through the fields at all and me not seeing it as an issue is me being an enabler of "sheep murder". I don't want to kick my sister whilst she's down.

I'd get rid of the other half for talking to me like this before I'd dump my own sister for a mistake.

 

[maya2008]

Can I recommend, if your sister is flaky, that SHE be the one to deal with farmer/dead sheep now and in the inevitable future. If everyone else solves her problems for her, how is she ever to learn to take responsibility for anything?

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Parents are fine with her being in the field as long as the rottie is on a lead

Out of interest and for clarification, the field that the sheep were in - is that owned by your parents and leased out to the sheep farmer? If so then that farmer will almost certainly insist absolutely no dogs whatsoever are allowed in the fields he has use of ever again even on a lead, and quite rightly so. If that is not the case my apologies for misunderstanding.

 

[Melody Grey]

As sheep farmers, my partner and I's worst nightmare is a dog attack.

My concern going forwards is if this dog or any dog that has tasted blood, was to turn it's attention on a young child. I do believe that if they've done it once, they'll do it again.

Beloved pet or not, this too is my opinion. It’s mentally such hard work not being able to trust a dog and having to make constant and special provision for it and fearing another escape. PTS to avoid further distress to anyone, tough though that is. The dog will know nothing of it.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

It sounds like your OH is behaving very badly. Causing a scene about this is highly unnecessary and not at all constructive. I would suggest that if he’s not happy, he can quietly take his horse and find his own livery situation, at his own expense, but I’d do what I wish with mine. I would not let his bad behavior negatively affect my family relationships.

That being said, I would not personally want to keep my horse where I might encounter an uncontrolled Rottweiler. They are tricky dogs, known to be incredibly strong and aggressive if not handled with expertise. They are highly intelligent working dogs with herding heritage, and are best suited to the kind of home that will keep a working dog disciplined and active. Not exactly the best pet dog material, however beloved, unless owned by a very responsible person.

I don’t think I’d perceive the owner’s level of responsibility as sufficient. The dogs have escaped and ended up in the horse field once before, the dog then chased sheep on one occasion, and then was subsequently allowed to escape and remain unaccounted for for two hours during which it killed and injured sheep.

I don’t think that the sheep killing episode can be considered all that much of a surprise, given the dog has form for escaping, has shown that it will chase sheep and is of a breed which is known to be tricky and very powerful - this is not a Bichon Frise which has got out.

I wouldn’t be confident in that person making the best risk assessments around the dog going forward.

 

[skinnydipper]

In my opinion there are 3 choices. Rehome, management or pts.

Management can fail.

Rehome would be best from the dog's pov.

 

[PeterNatt]

Your sister lives on a farm and as such is being irresponsible, keeping that dog for a second longer on the family farm. As long as everyone is happy for you to keep your horses on the family farm then continue doing so. You may like to consider dumping your better-half who sounds completley unreasonable.

 

[stormox]

Sheep usually run at the sight of a dog, initiating the chase instinct.
Horses are less likely to run, especially if used to dogs, so dog doesn't react and chase in the same way.