Can a dog that killed a sheep be trusted around horses?

[planete]

Sorry but dogs who like to chase can take great delight in harrassing a placid horse or cow in order to make it run just so they can then give chase. I have seen it.

Sheep usually run at the sight of a dog, initiating the chase instinct.
Horses are less likely to run, especially if used to dogs, so dog doesn't react and chase in the same way.

 

[stormox]

Sorry but dogs who like to chase can take great delight in harrassing a placid horse or cow in order to make it run just so they can then give chase. I have seen it.

Yes, but it was said that these dogs would be on leads through the horse fields and I'm assuming the owners wouldn't let them harass a horse.

 

[spotty_pony2]

What sort of dog is it out of curiosity? I don’t think the horses are at risk but I’d be fencing them securely.

Our guard dog (Doberman) catches all sorts of wild animals - rabbits, rats etc but we have rescued fencing around the whole house property so she can’t get out. She will chase the horses if given the chance so we don’t walk her through the horse fields but we have enough land to be able to juggle the horses and the dogs and keep them separate. She will jump up at the stable doors and try and bite them and after catching my boy on the nose a few weeks ago, she only comes down to the stables with a muzzle on. She likes hunting for rats in the hay barn so still comes out I just have to manage them all carefully.

 

[irishdraft]

It sounds a horrible situation to be in OP, I probably wouldn't move my horses I would see how your sister/ family deals with the dog going forward. Your OH doesn't sound like he's being reasonable quite the opposite but you say he's in pain and this can make people extremely difficult. I hope you can get a successful outcome for everyone.

 

[nagblagger]

@MCP030405 are you ok?
Throughout this thread you have never once defended your OH, even though many posters have commented about his behaviour and to get rid of him.
(My pm box is always open.)

 

[babymare]

So many more experienced people posting with advice but I couldn’t read and run. I’m so sorry you are in this position and I hope you can sort this. Big hug sent.

 

[AmyMay]

No, I wouldn’t move my horses. I would expect sister to take measures to prevent this happening again (plus clean up after her dog). I appreciate she’s doing the former. Your OH needs to take a breath and calm down. Presumably it’s your parents farm so your OH can’t dictate what happens. Obviously if he wants to move his own horse(s), that’s his prerogative.

 

[BigRedDog]

@MCP030405 are you ok?
Throughout this thread you have never once defended your OH, even though many posters have commented about his behaviour and to get rid of him.
(My pm box is always open.)

The OP has explained that her OH has medical issues and is in pain which effects his behaviour.

Re: dog and family relationship, I have a dog who killed a sheep (one incident when he was young, I have made sure it will never happen again). I apologised and compensated farmer who was a neighbour. I asked the neighbour if he wanted me to PTS the dog, he was prepared to give me a chance to manage the situation - which I did successfully until moving away. He also said we had been good neighbours for 20 years and he wasn’t going to let what had happened change that. His only stipulation was I took the dog to sheep-aversion training, dog was bloody terrified of sheep by the end of that! A lesson perhaps that with goodwill on both sides and accepting responsibility for what had happened you can rebuild the situation.

 

[Time for Tea]

I have a young GSD with a high prey drive. He has killed two roe deer that got into our garden. It takes 30 seconds. He cant be allowed loose on our paddock land, unfortunately, because of the vast numbers of deer. My previous GSD would chase the deer out of our fields and stop at the boundary. Very useful. But not my young one. He is however, absolutely fine with my ponies, and protects them if other dogs get too interested when we are out riding on the heathland. He is also absolutely fine with the small grandchildren and all visitors to the house, all delivery people etc, loves everyone. I’ve done a lot of training with him. But he has a good fenced area, can wear a muzzle if necessary, is used to being on a lead including a long rope from a horse, and is generally obedient.
I have inadvertently managed to get my last 3 dogs trodden on by a horse. Usually squeezing through a gate or similar. A dog that has been trodden on by a shod hoof is careful not to get too near a horse afterwards.
They all retained all their toes by the way.

 

[Sanversera]

The dog needs shooting.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

The dog needs shooting.

Bit late on that, a farmer can only shoot a dog when it's on their land and seen worrying livestock.
Not many farmers would do this (some do), but would try and catch dog and get police involved.
However, a farmer can get a destruction order via courts or police, in which case the animal would be pts by a vet, not shot.....

 

[Ceifer]

In my opinion there are 3 choices. Rehome, management or pts.

Management can fail.

Rehome would be best from the dog's pov.

That could apply to the boyfriend too in my opinion

 

[MCP030405]

Could you swap houses with your sister? Meaning you're closer to the horses

I don't know? My house is mine about 15 mins away, my sisters is rented from her parents... I suppose its a possibility but I doubt my husband would go for it

 

[Bellaboo18]

As sheep farmers, my partner and I's worst nightmare is a dog attack.

My concern going forwards is if this dog or any dog that has tasted blood, was to turn it's attention on a young child. I do believe that if they've done it once, they'll do it again.

There's no link between the two scenarios.

 

[MCP030405]

In my opinion there are 3 choices. Rehome, management or pts.

Management can fail.

Rehome would be best from the dog's pov.

I agree, I want to manage it whilst sister comes to terms with either removing herself from the farm with the dogs or just rehoming the one dog.
I doubt she'd PTS if it can be managed by her just not being on a farm

 

[Abacus]

Having had a reactive/protective dog, I would say that it’s simply impossible to be vigilant for their whole lives. We were super careful, knowing she was tricky with other dogs - but one day the gate was left open and she attacked a dog (I was pregnant which made things worse at that time). She was pts because we felt that it was impossible to manage another 6 years of being on guard constantly. This was 12 years ago and with hindsight I should have acted sooner. (The other dog thankfully survived).

The thing that did absolutely work to prevent her chasing livestock was an electric collar. There are mixed views on this and I’m prepared here to be shot down in flames, but they damn well work, and very quickly.

OP, you’re in the middle of other people acting badly, and I sympathise. I hope you have some support.

 

[MCP030405]

It sounds like your OH is behaving very badly. Causing a scene about this is highly unnecessary and not at all constructive. I would suggest that if he’s not happy, he can quietly take his horse and find his own livery situation, at his own expense, but I’d do what I wish with mine. I would not let his bad behavior negatively affect my family relationships.

That being said, I would not personally want to keep my horse where I might encounter an uncontrolled Rottweiler. They are tricky dogs, known to be incredibly strong and aggressive if not handled with expertise. They are highly intelligent working dogs with herding heritage, and are best suited to the kind of home that will keep a working dog disciplined and active. Not exactly the best pet dog material, however beloved, unless owned by a very responsible person.

I don’t think I’d perceive the owner’s level of responsibility as sufficient. The dogs have escaped and ended up in the horse field once before, the dog then chased sheep on one occasion, and then was subsequently allowed to escape and remain unaccounted for for two hours during which it killed and injured sheep.

I don’t think that the sheep killing episode can be considered all that much of a surprise, given the dog has form for escaping, has shown that it will chase sheep and is of a breed which is known to be tricky and very powerful - this is not a Bichon Frise which has got out.

I wouldn’t be confident in that person making the best risk assessments around the dog going forward.

I agree.
My sister has made a huge error of judgement and I don't trust her.
My OH is reacting strongly and with no room for conversation, it's his way or the highway. He's also said he wants nothing to do with my sister again, just what I need before Christmas, not only am I trying to keep my relatives sane and rational about what needs to happen, at home I'm vilified for it. It's been 48 hours, it's Christmas, it's not surprising to me that nothing has been sorted yet.

I want to manage it with the fence and hope to god my sister realises she can not stay on a farm with the dog

Thank you, I haven't really got anybody to be honest, my husband thinks I'm being an idiot trying to help My sister so hasn't stopped being angry for the last 48 hours, my sister is in a mess knowing shes messed up so badly and parents are furious, I'm having to talk to the farmer and keep everything on me because family don't want this getting out, so I'm not able to talk about it

 

[MCP030405]

Having had a reactive/protective dog, I would say that it’s simply impossible to be vigilant for their whole lives. We were super careful, knowing she was tricky with other dogs - but one day the gate was left open and she attacked a dog (I was pregnant which made things worse at that time). She was pts because we felt that it was impossible to manage another 6 years of being on guard constantly. This was 12 years ago and with hindsight I should have acted sooner. (The other dog thankfully survived).

The thing that did absolutely work to prevent her chasing livestock was an electric collar. There are mixed views on this and I’m prepared here to be shot down in flames, but they damn well work, and very quickly.

OP, you’re in the middle of other people acting badly, and I sympathise. I hope you have some support.

So did I, my dog was muzzled outside the house at all times and around strangers in it, just in case. It was awful, it was tiring and now I have cats

I want to manage it until sister realises it's not going to be okay for doggy to stay on the farm

 

[AmyMay]

I agree.
My sister has made a huge error of judgement and I don't trust her.
My OH is reacting strongly and with no room for conversation, it's his way or the highway. He's also said he wants nothing to do with my sister again, just what I need before Christmas, not only am I trying to keep my relatives sane and rational about what needs to happen, at home I'm vilified for it. It's been 48 hours, it's Christmas, it's not surprising to me that nothing has been sorted yet.

I want to manage it with the fence and hope to god my sister realises she can not stay on a farm with the dog

Thank you, I haven't really got anybody to be honest, my husband thinks I'm being an idiot trying to help My sister so hasn't stopped being angry for the last 48 hours, my sister is in a mess knowing shes ****** up so badly and parents are furious, I'm having to talk to the farmer and keep everything on me because family don't want this getting out, so I'm not able to talk about it

Please can you amend your post to remove the f’word.

 

[MCP030405]

Sorry

Please can you amend your post to remove the f’word.

Sorry, done

 

[teapot]

I used to muzzle my reactive collie just in case - Sister thought I was a cruel idiot.
The rottie now has a harness

I was under the impression a farmer can only shoot a dog if caught in the act with no control, I haven't read anywhere that the police will euthanise? I hope thats not the case as the dog is a loved family pet, who we now know can never be trusted on the farm, but she's never posed a danger before, my sister has rabbits and a cat, she's grown up with them

What if said dog manages to get out again and goes for not a sheep, but a child on a footpath near by? Sorry, but with dog showing those instincts, I'd be making only one decision.

Info here re sheep worrying: https://www.battens.co.uk/insights/sheep-worrying-and-the-law-2 and https://www.brachers.co.uk/insights/stop-worrying-your-rights-when-it-comes-to-protecting-your-sheep

 

[Clodagh]

What if said dog manages to get out again and goes for not a sheep, but a child on a footpath near by? Sorry, but with dog showing those instincts, I'd be making only one decision.

Info here re sheep worrying: https://www.battens.co.uk/insights/sheep-worrying-and-the-law-2 and https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-46799918

That is so unlikely. Mine are rocksteady around everything but sheep running away from them make them very excited. It’s the bouncy rear end view I think. They have never attacked a horse or child.
OP’s OH is being an arse. OP’s sister is being an arse.

 

[Clodagh]

I would also add, I walk and work my dogs in sheep all the time and if one actually attacked one I’d have to pts or rehome as my life would become impossible.

 

[teapot]

That is so unlikely. Mine are rocksteady around everything but sheep running away from them make them very excited. It’s the bouncy rear end view I think. They have never attacked a horse or child.
OP’s OH is being an arse. OP’s sister is being an arse.

Unlikely but not impossible (nothing is). Plus public perception esepcially at a time of other dog laws coming in (different breed/type I know I know, but you know what the general public are like!)

I just think OP and family need to think this one through very carefully, because if the dog was to be actually caught sheep worrying (and remember it doesnt have its mouth around a sheep's neck to count,
simply being loose in the same field does!) the farmer has the legal right to shoot as a last resort.

 

[Bellaboo18]

What if said dog manages to get out again and goes for not a sheep, but a child on a footpath near by? Sorry, but with dog showing those instincts, I'd be making only one decision.

Info here re sheep worrying: https://www.battens.co.uk/insights/sheep-worrying-and-the-law-2 and https://www.brachers.co.uk/insights/stop-worrying-your-rights-when-it-comes-to-protecting-your-sheep

There's no link between livestock attacks and attacks on children.

 

[Bellaboo18]

Unlikely but not impossible (nothing is). Plus public perception esepcially at a time of other dog laws coming in (different breed/type I know I know, but you know what the general public are like!)

I just think OP and family need to think this one through very carefully, because if the dog was to be actually caught sheep worrying (and remember it doesnt have its mouth around a sheep's neck to count) the farmer has the legal right to shoot as a last resort.

It's not impossible for any dog to attack a child but we're not going to put them all to sleep.

 

[teapot]

It's not impossible for any dog to attack a child but we're not going to put them all to sleep.

No they don't, but most won't have previous history of attacking sheep either, which is kinda my point. There may not be any known links, but I personally wouldn't trust any dog that had attacked sheep, or anything else for that matter.

Granted that's personal preference.

 

[Clodagh]

Unlikely but not impossible (nothing is). Plus public perception esepcially at a time of other dog laws coming in (different breed/type I know I know, but you know what the general public are like!)

I just think OP and family need to think this one through very carefully, because if the dog was to be actually caught sheep worrying (and remember it doesnt have its mouth around a sheep's neck to count,
simply being loose in the same field does!) the farmer has the legal right to shoot as a last resort.

Yes he does, and that is completely right, but the fact still remains a dog that has killed sheep does not tend to start hunting everything from toddlers up.

 

[teapot]

Yes he does, and that is completely right, but the fact still remains a dog that has killed sheep does not tend to start hunting everything from toddlers up.

I get that but it's also about public perception. As OP has said, they're trying to keep it quiet. You have to ask yourself why.

 

[twiggy2]

Unlikely but not impossible (nothing is). Plus public perception esepcially at a time of other dog laws coming in (different breed/type I know I know, but you know what the general public are like!)

I just think OP and family need to think this one through very carefully, because if the dog was to be actually caught sheep worrying (and remember it doesnt have its mouth around a sheep's neck to count,
simply being loose in the same field does!) the farmer has the legal right to shoot as a last reresort.

So do you feel that that applies to a dog that chases a wild rabbit, rat, mouse, cat, deer etc etc?
My lurcher is not safe with sheep or deer she is as good as dogs can be with kids.