can a farrier trim better than a barefoot trimmer ?

A farrier will be far better at preparing a hoof for a shoe or a grass trim on an unshod foot as that what he trained to do

I feel a trimmer offers a much more informed all round service though - a barefoot trim is not a grass trim end of !

My blacksmith is great at working metal but I question sometimes his knowlege of hoof flexion and circulation

I'm in a barefoot vs shod battle with myself at the moment
 
Miss L Toe said:
A farrier trained for years,trained to shoe horses.
There is often a need to feed for feet, the barefoot taliban sect will agree with me here.
Also your farrier will not advise on training, bedding, and general management, it is not his specialist subject, only a few will have their own horses, so they are limited in their outlook.
Farriers are basically trained to shoe horses, they need to be good with metalwork or they will be bad farriers.
There are several farriers round here who vary from world class to third class, but some people don't mind the soles being pared off so the shoes will last for 12 weeks, yes twelve weeks!

By the way they all train for four or five years, but at the end, they are not all good farriers.

Half the farriers I know would be out of business if half their customers tried barefoot.
I have not trained for any time, but I do rasp off the edges [mini mustang roll , perhaps].
Horse was sound before, and is now, he can do an hour or more hacking with no problems, so why would I revert to shoes?
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Very true, nice post.
 
Ladylina83 said:
A farrier will be far better at preparing a hoof for a shoe or a grass trim on an unshod foot as that what he trained to do

I feel a trimmer offers a much more informed all round service though - a barefoot trim is not a grass trim end of !

My blacksmith is great at working metal but I question sometimes his knowlege of hoof flexion and circulation

I'm in a barefoot vs shod battle with myself at the moment
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Another good post. Barefoot, go on, you know it makes sense, lol.
 
I choose someone who I think does a good job to trim my horses, be that trimmer or farrier. My current farrier is also a trimmer, so I get the best of both worlds. I've never used anyone who wasn't a farrier, but I wouldn't rule it out - if their timming method works for my horse what does it matter if they're a member of the worshipful wotsit, or whatever. If they do a bad job they'll get the boot, whoever they are.

But then I'm not someone who's happy to let someone else work on my horses' feet when I'm not present, like so many people seem to be.
 
Miss L Toe said:
A farrier trained for years,trained to shoe horses.
There is often a need to feed for feet, the barefoot taliban sect will agree with me here.
Also your farrier will not advise on training, bedding, and general management, it is not his specialist subject, only a few will have their own horses, so they are limited in their outlook.
Farriers are basically trained to shoe horses, they need to be good with metalwork or they will be bad farriers.
There are several farriers round here who vary from world class to third class, but some people don't mind the soles being pared off so the shoes will last for 12 weeks, yes twelve weeks!

By the way they all train for four or five years, but at the end, they are not all good farriers.

Half the farriers I know would be out of business if half their customers tried barefoot.
I have not trained for any time, but I do rasp off the edges [mini mustang roll , perhaps].
Horse was sound before, and is now, he can do an hour or more hacking with no problems, so why would I revert to shoes?
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I agree with some of your comments there are bad farriers that will always be bad farriers, owners need to take more responsibility and interest in their horses feet as they do in other areas.

My farrier was a horseman first, still owns and rides, he will happily discuss his work and is very helpful with any problems that may arise but I do not expect him or want him to tell me how to train or manage my horses, that is not his job it is mine.
 
Pale Rider said:
Another good post. Barefoot, go on, you know it makes sense, lol.
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Been there worked for years then something changed, gave up put front shoes on - horse now even more lame - vets (2 different ones) want heart bars say she would never be sound with out ! ... but she was - for 5 years !! Had bloods done for EMS and cushings on Wed trying to find out what the hell is going on. I feel like a ping pong ball

feel like ripping them off myself somedays ... if anyone can reccommend me a vet in the NW that supports barefoot than that would be really appreciated

Thanks for your most helpful response there Sarah1 ! ( rolls eyes )
 
Miss L Toe said:
Also your farrier will not advise on training, bedding, and general management, it is not his specialist subject, only a few will have their own horses, so they are limited in their outlook
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You're right it's not the specialist subject but neither is it a trimmers specialist subject! However, you are also wrong with this comment a farrier learns a bit more than just 'hooves' in their training! I don't know the ins & outs as I'm not a trained farrier but I have an excellent farrier for my boy & he's helped me with far more than jsut the horses feet! :)
 
be positive said:
I agree with some of your comments there are bad farriers that will always be bad farriers, owners need to take more responsibility and interest in their horses feet as they do in other areas.

My farrier was a horseman first, still owns and rides, he will happily discuss his work and is very helpful with any problems that may arise but I do not expect him or want him to tell me how to train or manage my horses, that is not his job it is mine.
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If you don't have your shoes changed often enough for the work they are doing, don't you want your farrier to tell you?
Suppose your your horse is abscessing and has thrush, is it up to you to sort it out, well, in a way it is, it is your bad management, but he is expected to wave a magic wand and sort it out, without the management being changed, and without comment to you, the person who owns the horse and has made it clear that you do not want any advice.
Almost all horse owners start off with no knowledge of feet, and many just pay up and never go beyond that level.
Like most horsey things, it is only after years of hard graft, that anyone could have enough knowledge to tell whether the farrier is doing a good job or not, and even then, one may have no difficult horses, so most farriers can do a decent job, only a few horses need a specialist farrier, and a special type of owner.
 
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maggiesmum said:
But they do get training on all aspects of management, for instance the uknhcp training course covers nutrition, saddle fitting and horse handling!
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I'm happy to be corrected, by a trained farrier, but I think farriers are also trained in more than just feet & metal!
 
Sarah1 said:
I'm happy to be corrected, by a trained farrier, but I think farriers are also trained in more than just feet & metal!
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Well what else is covered, yes they may look at gait, but how many ask you to walk the horse before and after being shod?
I suppose they do anatomy, but only a few could examine an X-ray and say if it is normal or not, most don't examine enough X-rays.
How about the farrier who put a nail in the wrong way round, the owner who put the horse out in a field for a year, and then "got rid" of it, new owner now has a super young horse, well bred, great conformation, and FREE!!!!, because the owner said, its lame, get another one!!!!!
 
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Miss L Toe said:
If you don't have your shoes changed often enough for the work they are doing, don't you want your farrier to tell you?
Suppose your your horse is abscessing and has thrush, is it up to you to sort it out, well, in a way it is, it is your bad management, but he is expected to wave a magic wand and sort it out, without the management being changed, and without comment to you, the person who owns the horse and has made it clear that you do not want any advice.
Almost all horse owners start off with no knowledge of feet, and many just pay up and never go beyond that level.
Like most horsey things, it is only after years of hard graft, that anyone could have enough knowledge to tell whether the farrier is doing a good job or not, and even then, one may have no difficult horses, so most farriers can do a decent job, only a few horses need a specialist farrier, and a special type of owner.
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No he is not expected to wave a magic wand and make things get better, it is the owner that manages on a daily basis and they need to learn hence discussing things with the farrier, I never said I wanted no advice on the feet but it is not his job to advise on my training methods,providing my horses stand quietly so he can do his job.
Everyone has to learn how to care for their horse, I just feel many spend more time worrying about which rug to use or whether the horse needs a different bit, than the fact that the old saying "no foot no horse" is still true today and to take a little time and interest in the way the foot is cared for.
 
Sarah1 said:
I'm happy to be corrected, by a trained farrier, but I think farriers are also trained in more than just feet & metal!
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Where's Moorman when you need him!

Look him up Sarah1. He's a remedial farrier with a wealth of knowledge. Posts on here a lot on the barefoot threads.

Trina x
 
This jumped out at me. I'm sorry to hear about what happened to your mare.

Can I also say that this is a great post because it speaks for having an open mind. Thank you for posting.

Personally I think any threads that attempt to put "farriers vs trimmers" are pretty futile. They don't change anyone's opinions and they don't change the fact that there are good and bad in both professions.

TPO said:
Finally read all the posts!

I can see both sides; you don't have to look far back on my previous posts to see I did not believe every horse (with correct management) could go barefoot and the trimmer I used reinforced that idea.

I had the trimmer out to a QH that was bought unvetted and had navicular. I'd tried everything and some of the posts I'd read on here lead me to barefoot so I called out an EP and it was a disaster. I changed the mare's diet (was advised to feed Hi-Fi lite, mag ox and seaweed), walked in hand, bought the boots and pads yet my mare was still uncomfortable. I changed vet practice and they said to remedially shoe her with wedged eggbars. Straight away she was more comfortable and field sound. This just confirmed to me that barefoot was nonsense.

At the end of June 2010 I lost my horse of a lifetime, my everything revolved around her, because she had advanced navicular (TB this time). Again you can read my previous posts if interested. She'd only ever been shod in front since July 2007 when I got her and had been shod from x-rays. I'd taken her to Dick Vet Hospital in March as I'd moved yards (after losing QH Nov 2009) and new YO insisted that TB mare had Kissing Spine and her vet (mine didn't cover that region) also said KS and a spavin so referred her. The Vet Hospital passed her as sound, definitely not kissing spine or underlying lameness issues (like a spavin).

At that point I moved back to my rented place and got a companion. The hard ground arrived in the May/June and she began to step slightly short so I box rested/cold hosed (there was no heat or swelling). When she didn't improve I called my equine vets who nerve blocked on the Friday and confirmed palmar foot pain. I took her to their clinic on the following Tuesday for full work up and it was "advanced navicular" which the vet rated as 8/10 and it was his opinion that it would have been delevoping for at least 9mths (so vet hospital should have picked up on it?).

I made the unbelievably painful decision to have her pts there and then as I didn't want her to suffer for a second longer. I'd been through it all with the QH and believed myself to be fairly clued up on navicular having read everything I could find on it, mainly vet texts and papers, and spoken with my vets extensively on numerous occassions. I did ask the vet about options (denerving, injecting the tendon or buting her up and leaving things to degenerate without her feeling it were the only ones I was offered). I specifically asked about barefoot and was told barefoot would not help, her feet were balanced so it wasn't a case of a bad farrier/shoeing and going barefoot would not alter/help/make any positive difference.

You've no idea how much I wish I didn't make that call and had just taken her home that day. If I did no doubt I would have posted on here and just maybe one of the "barefoot taliban/vultures" would have replied and given Tanith an option and a chance.

As much as I enjoy reading and learning it's devastating reading books by the like of Jaime Jackson and Pete Ramey because they state in black and white that "navicular" can be "cured"/managed and they have never yet had a horse with navic disease/syndrome not come sound. That could have been Tanith but I can't go back in time and have the small comfort of making the decision for T's welfare, not wishing her to suffer at all, and putting that above the huge gaping hole losing her has left.

You can see in my previous posts that I put CPTrayes on "User Ignore" as I was fed up with what I perceived to be self righteous ranting and using barefoot as a cure all for every problem posted about. When I was looking for yet another whip to flog myself with over losing T I posted in Veterinary asking of barefoot really was a cure for navic (CPTrayes off UI by then!). This lead to me buying the books and reading the websites so that I could make an informed decision.

The more I read the more I got why CPTrayes and the "Barefoot Taliban" get so frustrated and are so insistant. Having read the nonveterinary books I can see a whole different side to how anatomy works, the effects of shoeing and horse management. I get where the passion (for want of a better word) to promote barefoot, when it's managed correctly, comes from. Now, to me, it makes no sense to shoe for reasons others have posted about more eloquently than I could. I would also like to take this opportunity to publically apologise to CPTrayes.

Those who are as vehemently against barefoot/trimmers as I was will no doubt dismiss this post as being overly emotive and not from an objective viewpoint which is fair enough but if just one person reads JJ/PR's books off the back of this and perhaps gives their horse the chance I didn't manage to give mine then that's enough. I'm really not into this baring of the soul on a public forum; you never know who is reading (although in my case I know a few RL people who read everything I write) but I just wouldn't wish the feeling I have over losing T on my worst enemy so if my ramblings help just one person/horse then I'm willing to take the back lash from it.
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be positive said:
No he is not expected to wave a magic wand and make things get better, it is the owner that manages on a daily basis and they need to learn hence discussing things with the farrier, I never said I wanted no advice on the feet but it is not his job to advise on my training methods,providing my horses stand quietly so he can do his job.
Everyone has to learn how to care for their horse, I just feel many spend more time worrying about which rug to use or whether the horse needs a different bit, than the fact that the old saying "no foot no horse" is still true today and to take a little time and interest in the way the foot is cared for.
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Sorry, but I think it is important which rug is used, it has to be appropriate not too hot, not too cold, not chafing, and I also think the bit is important, as a horse without a good mouth is not a horse which will work up the Scales of Training.
 
Sarah1 said:
I'm happy to be corrected, by a trained farrier, but I think farriers are also trained in more than just feet & metal!
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Maybe your post wasn't very clear but I said the UKNHCP training covered more than just feet and you seemed to be suggesting that you were only prepared to be corrected by a farrier??
 
Sarah1 said:
I don't, I expect a farrier to say what training a farrier goes thorugh!
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Farriers are self employed, they can't be expected to give every customer their c.v., and if you ask for it, you will be looking for another farrier.
I would consider myself experienced in matters horsey, but when I told my[new] farrier I did not want him to be too harsh with the rasp on the surface of hoof wall, he said, "I do it this way because it is necessary", [I think he did relent a bit], I am happy to have the rasp used to take off toe and stuff, as it will be six weeks before he will see a farrier again.
No problem now, no shoes.
In ye olden days farriers took on apprentices, good ones made good farriers, others not so good.
College work is not the only work, and a good farrier selects his apprentice carefully.
 
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maggiesmum said:
Maybe your post wasn't very clear but I said the UKNHCP training covered more than just feet and you seemed to be suggesting that you were only prepared to be corrected by a farrier??
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Yes, I said that a farrier trains in more than just feet & metal but that I am happy to be told otherwise by a trained farrier, ie by someone who has done the training required to become a qualified farrier!
 
Miss L Toe said:
Sorry, but I think it is important which rug is used, it has to be appropriate not too hot, not too cold, not chafing, and I also think the bit is important, as a horse without a good mouth is not a horse which will work up the Scales of Training.
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But not much use if the horses feet are causing it discomfort so it cannot be ridden, rugging is basic common sense, somewhat lacking nowdays admittedly, whereas care of the feet is often to some extent neglected .
I am not really disagreeing with you, I just feel more time and effort should be put into learning about feet, barefoot or otherwise , as you said earlier many people just pay the money and that is it until next time.
 
I have used many farriers over many years and never had any advice other than an ancient method of treating thrush and a suggestion to use a hoof hardener, I have used two trimmers and had an excellent service but found them expensive. My horses now mostly self trim but I use a farrier to trim my 2 yr old haffy and my pony (but quite often he doesn't need doing either and the reason I like my farrier is because he doesn't do anything if the hooves are fine). My horses are barefoot when not booted. If trimmers were cheaper I would use them more often..
 
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my 2 penneth and i can't be bothered to read any of the other posts but, i've had great both!

Fantastically knowledged trimmer and my farrier is just as good.

It depends on the individual and how bothered they are about doing a good job for the horse :)
 
brucea said:
Actually, the interestign thing is that a good basic trim can be done by either a trimmer or a farrier. Different trims styles often, but if the hoof is straightforward then a straightforward trim do, and in a couple of weeks natural wear might make each indistinguishable from the other anyway.

Trimmers tend to look at more than just the hoof - they'll have spent a lot of time uderstanding diet, movement etc. and will try to understand the overall helath and chartacteristics of that horse.

So imagine for a momment that you had hooves - would you be happy with a chiropodist who just treated your hoof the same as every other hoof, didn't see how you moved, or explored whether aspects of your diet might be affecting the health of your feet, didn't try to work out why that flare was so big or you had trouble landing on your heels? Would you like it if the chiropodist didn't listen to you about not wanting to wear shoes and scooped your soles dand pared your frog, so that you were sore for a couple of weeks on stony ground? How would you feel?

I think the problem with this argument is that you're trying to compare apples and bananas.
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I think you are being very generalistic here. My husband is a fully trained and registered farrier; he spends alot of time understanding diet and movement. He is quick to suggest going barefoot to those owners whose horses he believes will benefit from it. He actively encourages many to take off hind shoes as so many horses can cope barefoot behind.
It doesn't suit every horse to go barefoot - it doesn't suit every owner. 3 of mine are barefoot, but my mare isn't because it doesn't suit me.

Many competing horses use studs and are shod on that basis if for no other reason. My husband carries out very good barefoot trims. He has also seen some diabolical work by unqualified trimmers, who even with their time consuming grid mappings get the balance totally wrong. He also sees poor farriery without a doubt.

You say about how after a couple of weeks natural wear and tear the foot will look the same from both a farrier's or trimmer's trim then why oh why would anyone want to pay a trimmer double the price of a farrier's trim????? It's a no brainer.

It angers him to see trimmers charging more than double his rate for a trim under the guise of a 'holistic approach' for a skill they have mastered in a weekend. He spent many years in his apprenticeship , he doesn't need a ruler and a grid to see the balance of a foot. And for goodness sake please - good farriers have always been giving dietary advice and watchiing horse movement and trimming/shoeing accordingly. A trimmer cannot shoe a horse so how can they ever give the owner the option of shoes?

There are good and bad in all, but don't underestimate a farrier's experience.
 
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