Can anyone educate me on bits!

[millitiger]

I'm more of a fan of changing nosebands than bits now.
I love a combination noseband on a strong horse, just gives you that little extra when you need a sharper half halt.

But I caveat that by saying I HATE horses who are too light and/or sit behind the contact- I like a confident, elastic, contact and I find most bits that are sharper than a snaffle, the horse backs off the rein too much for me personally.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Thanks for all the advice. Lots to think about but I think I am heading towards giving the verbindend universal a trial. With her existing bridle with a grackle.

 

[Goldenstar]

Dr Bristol is a snaffle with an angled plate as the joint
It has no gag action .k

What is the differene between that and the gag you say you hate? (Genuine question - they look the same to me).

Dr Bristol is a snaffle with an angled plate as the joint
It has no gag action .

Never heard of kineton nose bands. What do they do? I've looked them up on the bit bank. Would have no clue how to fit one!

The Kineton wont stop her opening her mouth and works best on horses who bear down on the rein its very strong and works by causing discomfort I own one but the horse needs to be an out and out thug .
I would not even try that on a horse that raises her head.

I agree fully with ihatework that the most important thing is to address issues in training and strong bits have to used with care .
If say a horse leans you have to consider why it does that, because it the horse does not have the tools in its training to remain off its front if its too weak or does not understand using stronger bits wont get you to a happy place .
Likewise if the horse does not understand the rudiments of lateral bend and straightness you can’t bit it make that better you have to train it better and learn to ride the horse better .
Kit changes help they help you sometimes to get the edge that helps you get in and get the job on track .
But it’s always training training then a bit more training that gets you there .

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Lottie came with the habit of locking on and launching, running through the bridle in the process. She is so much better, I am absolutely doing the training. And I want to go lighter not harsher. She is not hard to pull up, she is not a thug. She just gets overly keen and takes over at times. She flattens and accelerates to the fence at times. She is so so much better. Really rideable 90% of the time. But I still need something for those moments where she forgets her training and reverts to old habits.

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s really hard when you have the feeling you need a bit switch half way through an exercise .
My best horse took a lot of training I just stopped in front of the fence or circled away if she got over keen.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

GS - this is the bit that came up when I googled Dr Bristol??

Doctor Bristol 3 Ring Continental Gag

Doctor Bristol 3 Ring Continental Gag

www.horsebitbank.com

 

[RachelFerd]

GS - this is the bit that came up when I googled Dr Bristol??

Doctor Bristol 3 Ring Continental Gag

Doctor Bristol 3 Ring Continental Gag

www.horsebitbank.com

The doctor Bristol is the mouthpiece - a normal doctor Bristol would have snaffle rings. It's the angle of the central plate that makes it stronger.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

thank you! That makes sense. (told you I was clueless…)

 

[tallyho!]

Yes complete minefield. Took me about 15 years probably as many bits to realise that actually, when used correctly, a snaffle is blummin brilliant

 

[teapot]

If you've got a spare couple of hours, Sarah Simpson's doing an online session on bits on 9th March, can be booked here: https://bookwhen.com/woodlands-training#focus=ev-s4m2-20230309190000

Really rate her sessions

 

[MereChristmas]

Step 1: Verbindend mouthpiece as she likes that
Step 2: Something with more control, but not gags or long shanks and for 1 rein?

Maybe something like:

9010U Neue Schule Verbindend Universal 12mm thickness

Neue Schule Verbindend Universal 12mm thickness

www.horsebitbank.com

Out of interest, would anyone agree with the Bit Bank advisor on recommending the Carl K Kimblehook and the FlexZ Elevator?

I have the Expert bits version of that. Bit fitter said she was disappointed in Neue Schule quality recently and EB were as good and cheaper.

 

[Squeak]

Lottie came with the habit of locking on and launching, running through the bridle in the process. She is so much better, I am absolutely doing the training. And I want to go lighter not harsher. She is not hard to pull up, she is not a thug. She just gets overly keen and takes over at times. She flattens and accelerates to the fence at times. She is so so much better. Really rideable 90% of the time. But I still need something for those moments where she forgets her training and reverts to old habits.

After having a horse that trainers told me I must train more, mustn't look at other bits etc. I reached the same conclusion as ihw - you have to be a realist not a purist - if it's really always just a case of training then all the Olympic/ top horses would be in a snaffle. If the different bits and nosebands are a good enough solution for the very best riders then I don't see why amateurs should be stuck schooling and schooling and schooling to achieve something they can't. I also think that the correct bit can help with the schooling e.g. help you to sit them on their hocks / balance them when they go to tank off and then you'd be able to swap back to a snaffle at a later point.

I am not at all saying though that people should just change bit and not train, just that people shouldn't be shamed out of trying new bits and using them as a training aid.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I have the Expert bits version of that. Bit fitter said she was disappointed in Neue Schule quality recently and EB were as good and cheaper.

Is it the comfy mouth universal they do that’s the same? Way cheaper!! X

 

[MereChristmas]

Is it the comfy mouth universal they do that’s the same? Way cheaper!! X

https://expertbits.co.uk/product/comfy-mouth-universal/

 

[MereChristmas]

Bad photo enlarged of Horsemanship Avante bridle and Expert bit comfy mouth universal

 

[Ample Prosecco]

#

https://expertbits.co.uk/product/comfy-mouth-universal/

Thanks I am going to try that one and then ask Joe on Sunday what he thinks of it. I like it because:

-It's the same mouthpiece
- I could use it on the snaffle ring so as she lightens up and progresses in her schooling, I won't need a new one
- It seems less harsh than the elevators or pelhams
- It's cheap so I won't mind selling on if it;s not right. The NS is £150 which is a lot to lose!

Thanks everyone for all the posts. I have read all of them really carefully, making notes. And I think I'll check out the book and seminar recommended.

x

 

[MereChristmas]

#



Thanks I am going to try that one and then ask Joe on Sunday what he thinks of it. I like it because:

-It's the same mouthpiece
- I could use it on the snaffle ring so as she lightens up and progresses in her schooling, I won't need a new one
- It seems less harsh than the elevators or pelhams
- It's cheap so I won't mind selling on if it;s not right. The NS is £150 which is a lot to lose!

Thanks everyone for all the posts. I have read all of them really carefully, making notes. And I think I'll check out the book and seminar recommended. x

That is pretty much what the bit fitter said to me.
If your horse has a long smile, like Finan, the bit, I’m told, should make less or no wrinkles in the lips. If the bit is set too high it bangs on the teeth. Apparently this is what I did with Finan. He was uncomfortable with the placing of the bit in his mouth.
I hope it helps you both.

edited to add.. not sure but I think the cheeks aren’t dressage legal but the mouthpiece is.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

It's not dressage legal but that's fine. I have 2 complete bridles, to make swapping over at events easier.

 

[SEL]

I was brought up to think that kimblewicks were for children’s ponies probably a bit cobby to help with brakes and control.
The slots give some leverage and there straight bar and ported ones too.
Sort of a pelham but more simple

I had one on my jumping pony - saint in the school thug across country. But he was a head down to tank off not a head up.

AE the bit bank have always been incredibly helpful when I've spoken to them about a specific problem. For the microcob they sent me 3 to trial with her floppy palate and weren't cross when they all had to be sent back - just supportive.

 

[Red-1]

Mine usually end up in a snaffle for everything but I am not a purist and if I get out and about having fun, I will start with something stronger.

Step 1: Verbindend mouthpiece as she likes that
Step 2: Something with more control, but not gags or long shanks and for 1 rein?

Maybe something like:

9010U Neue Schule Verbindend Universal 12mm thickness

Neue Schule Verbindend Universal 12mm thickness

www.horsebitbank.com

Out of interest, would anyone agree with the Bit Bank advisor on recommending the Carl K Kimblehook and the FlexZ Elevator?

Mine last year was XC in a kimblewick with this sort of mouthpiece. I got it on Ebay, so a knock off for around £20 though.

https://expertbits.co.uk/product/comfy-mouth-universal/

I believe these people came to a camp at Somerford last year. Maybe they would come to one of your camps? People seemed happy with them.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Hi
So following on from the advice on here, I have tried Lottie on the Expert Bits comfy mouth universal. (Basically the NS verbindend universal.)

Not sure what to make of her reaction so will post here for any HHO wisdom.

Firstly she chomped it a lot to asrart with, which may just be the unfamiliarity - though it's the same mouthpeice. That settled.

2nd she was super, SUPER responsive to it. Which is good - I suppose - but the degree of change un-nerved me a bit. It should not feel so different in her mouth. (Did I have it in upside down lol. I'm only half-joking....)

She started off with the hand-brake on in a very un-Lottie like fashion. Rode her forward and she did start moving more freely, but she came back so easily. Why? I had almost no contact. My hands were super soft and forward but she was responding to breathing and seat cues. Almost grinding to a halt from walk if I asked her to slow a little. So in terms of brakes, I had plenty even thogh I felt like I was only feathering them.

She held her head very still. No fighting the contact, coming up the bit etc. Again good - I guess - but it was just odd. How can a bit make a horse so different? It was the same in w/t/c. No attempt to speed up, easy to being down. Very odd.

I have a Joe lesson on Saturday, so I will let him ride her in it, to see what he thinks. But just wondered if anyone had any thoughts.

 

[MereChristmas]

Perhaps she was working out the different action of the bit?
F felt different immediately too but not as great a change as you felt.
Is there a guideline to the numbers of rides for a horse to become accustomed to a bit change?

I think they’d tell you straight away if it was wrong or uncomfortable.
If the bit sits in her mouth and moves against her tongue, palate etc in a different way but is just strange not painful I'm guessing she may be just puzzled.

You have given her instructions in one way using the old bit for…..however long…. so perhaps like us and new shoes?
Sorry can’t think of a better comparison.

I’m no expert but that’s what came to my mind

 

[Upthecreek]

Could it be the introduction of poll pressure, which she isn’t used to? The Universal version of whatever snaffle a horse likes is usually what I try first for anything that requires a bit more control for jumping. This copied from the Horse Bit Bank website might explain it better than I can:

Any extension above the mouthpiece will cause poll pressure (head lowering), any extension below the mouthpiece will give leverage (head raising). When the two are combined this is generally referred to as a gag action. The Universal is one of my personal favourites. The gag action is not excessive and even strong horses generally appreciate this and respond as opposed to fighting it.

 

[RachelFerd]

Hi
So following on from the advice on here, I have tried Lottie on the Expert Bits comfy mouth universal. (Basically the NS verbindend universal.)

Not sure what to make of her reaction so will post here for any HHO wisdom.

Firstly she chomped it a lot to asrart with, which may just be the unfamiliarity - though it's the same mouthpeice. That settled.

2nd she was super, SUPER responsive to it. Which is good - I suppose - but the degree of change un-nerved me a bit. It should not feel so different in her mouth. (Did I have it in upside down lol. I'm only half-joking....)

She started off with the hand-brake on in a very un-Lottie like fashion. Rode her forward and she did start moving more freely, but she came back so easily. Why? I had almost no contact. My hands were super soft and forward but she was responding to breathing and seat cues. Almost grinding to a halt from walk if I asked her to slow a little. So in terms of brakes, I had plenty even thogh I felt like I was only feathering them.

She held her head very still. No fighting the contact, coming up the bit etc. Again good - I guess - but it was just odd. How can a bit make a horse so different? It was the same in w/t/c. No attempt to speed up, easy to being down. Very odd.

I have a Joe lesson on Saturday, so I will let him ride her in it, to see what he thinks. But just wondered if anyone had any thoughts.

Sounds like possibly too much brakes to me - in that they still need to have the confidence to be able to go forwards into a definitely 'there' contact in order to give you the subtlety you need to make adjustments (coming into a XC fence, you don't want a binary stop/start adjustment - you need them taking you boldly into a contact, but to be able to make a gradual 'woah' if you need to). But that might come over time with a bit more of her getting used to it.

And even if it is 'too much' for jumping in long term, it might be a good educational tool in the short term.

But you'll get better input from in person input in your lesson anyway.

 

[MereChristmas]

Did you use the ‘snaffle’ fixing or the lower ’gag’ position?
I haven’t used the gag position yet as we haven’t been anywhere exciting.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Thanks for replies. I wondered about too much brakes. But I thought the universal was gentler than the pelham she is in now? Though that is rubber mouthed not the verbindend mouthpiece?

It is on the lower ring and with the back strap. Not because I need brakes in the arena but because I want her to get used to it before I jump her on Sunday x

 

[MereChristmas]

As I said I’m not an expert but I’d try the big ring next time.
F went from a hanging cheek verbindend to the expert bits comfy mouth universal.
He didn’t show much difference, a little more forward and not pulling his head down.
I felt generally he was happier. The bit fitter said straight away that the difference in cheeks had stopped the bit banging on his teeth when used.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

As I said I’m not an expert but I’d try the big ring next time.
F went from a hanging cheek verbindend to the expert bits comfy mouth universal.
He didn’t show much difference, a little more forward and not pulling his head down.
I felt generally he was happier. The bit fitter said straight away that the difference in cheeks had stopped the bit banging on his teeth when used.

I know I don't have enough brakes with a snaffle bit. Her existing snaffle bit is basically this bit, and I can jump in it Well I can, but it wasn't fun! Or do the offset rings at the top, the cheek pieces attach to, make a difference even on the snaffle ring? I am not really sure what they are for??

 

[MereChristmas]

I would think they give a little bit more leverage
going to see if I can find the link to the Neue Schule bit pamphlet.
I have aprinted copy of this somewhere but not sure where the link is

 

[Upthecreek]

I always try it first without the back strap. If you feel you need the strap, start with it loose and tighten gradually until you have better brakes. If you put the reins on the large ring it becomes a snaffle so no advantage.