Can I cry pls?

[Dab]

Thank u x. Ellie the thing is we just don't KNOW what it is, we thought it could be stomach ulcers at one point, which is why she went on the gastroguard, at one point we thought it could be worms even though she'd had a bleeding good dose of equest pramox, so he had pancur for 5 days, she's had bute, antibiotics, cushings test... Liver function, in depth blood tests, I'm a fixer, I can always fix something's and solve a problem, if I don't know something I research the answer, eliminate the possibilities and find the cause and fix it.... But I just can't seem to do it!! I mean it's so flucking bad to see buckets and buckets of food go into your horse and her waste away in front of your eyes and just not being able to fix it or stop it... I'm so angry! And I keep asking myself the question when will I stop? I know I may save her yet but I also know that if I can't I will spend my life coming up with 'what ifs' and I don't want to be someone who keeps their horse alive for themselves, never having gone through this before, never having had to make the decision before, I'm becoming acutely aware of how hard it is to know when. My vet and I haven't even said its that time yet, but I can't bear the thought that I may become one of those owners that keeps their horse going for themselves and I can't bear the idea that I may give up on her too soon... I feel very helpless and very lost

Hi QB sorry to hear all that you are going through.

I havent been through all of the answers so you or somebody might have already discussed this, but with all the bute, heavy dose wormers, lack of weight gain, have you considered hindgut ulcers? GG wont touch those bug*ers, and bute, wormers and too much or changes in feed play havock with the healthy bacteria in the colon, encouraging bad bacteria which then turns the environment acidic and invites ulcers. This leads to weight loss and/or poor doers.

Small feeds are the way forward, with slippery elm and chamomile, a little bran (add water) and a good dose of micronised linseed, plus adlib hay (NOT haylage).

Good luck.

PS I know its difficult because she wont eat properly but be careful with all of the changes in feed, the hindgut needs time to adapt to new feeds - well the healthy bacteria need time to adapt - mess with that and you mess with the bacteria and hey presto hindgut acidious = ulcers = colic = poor doer = weight loss

 

[Vixen Van Debz]

I can't believe the photos: seems so far from the Ebony of the is she/isn't she pregnant mystery! I have no answers, but wanted to say I've been thinking about you and Ebony and I hope you get to the bottom of the problem. She's a lucky mare to have someone so loving and with their head so screwed on. Fingers crossed you get answers and your beautiful healthy mare back soon x

 

[m1stify]

Sorry nothing to add but have been following the story and feel very sorry for you and poor Ebony. Hope you get your answers soon

 

[goldenmint]

Sending you hugs and hope that things pick up for you and ebony soon.

The best feed I have ever used for putting on weight was baileys no.1 but imagine the root problem would need addressing before trying to 'feed up' would work.

I really, really hope you get some answers and better news soon.

 

[Tammytoo]

First of all huge cyber hugs for you both, it really doesn't seem fair.

Following on from DAB's comments about hindgut ulcers, there is a clip on YouTube about a non invasive way of diagnosing ulcers, Equine Ulcer Diagnosis by Mark de Paolo. He is an american vet and, as usual, the americans seem to be ahead of us in lots of "horsey" things.

If Ebony is seeking out herbs and flowers, like Cow Parsley, let her eat them. Animals know instinctively what is good for them. Don't worry about her accidently eating Hemlock, they won't touch it.

It's heartbreaking when you can't fix your horse, but she is so lucky to have an owner who is moving heaven and earth to help her.

 

[Parker79]

Nothing to add except for the fact I am sorry to hear she is so unwell. I hope shepicks up soon and you have some answers. Sounds like you are fighting hard for her

 

[Emilieu]

Nothing useful to say at all but just wanted to send huge hugs to both of you. She's lucky to have you xx

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Im so so sorry, this must be so scary for you. Sending every ounce of positivity your way. Shes a lovely mare & i SOOO want to see pics of her having come through this. If I were you I would have her taken in and thoroughly investigated. Fingers crossed- please keep us posted on how shes doing x

ETA: Another poster has just started a thread about kidney failure.apparently their horse experienced rapid weight loss.........just a suggestion??

 

[rockysmum]

So sorry to read about your girl. I'm no expert and have no suggestions on whats wrong with her.

Just a suggestion for weight gain. My oldie dropped a lot in winter and got colic caused by a tooth it appears. I tried all sorts to put it back but just couldn't get the calories high enough. I was thinking it was near the end.

I managed to turn it around (before the grass grew and helped) by feeding raw molasses. It improved his appetite, he dives on his food now, has gained weight and his coat is beautiful. He will also eat any kind of food when the molasses are added which is useful.

I do know the risks, but he's 36 and never had lami so I took the chance. It has paid off so far.

He also loves cow parsley and it has not done him any harm. His other favourite if we can find them is dandelions.

 

[mjcssjw2]

well i have read most of the responses! but at the beginning my thought was chronic GS I am afraid.
Don't know why as I have never had one with it.
One of the girls at the farm had a horse with a mild form, it never sweated and always did some pooh's, but was very fussy about eating and drinking and lost lots of weight, if you held the bucket up for him he took water better, She did like you and tried allsorts of feed, he liked bananas in fact some days it was all he would have.
He did keep getting a swollen tummy and kept having to have excess fluid drained from his stomach.
He did recover and is still going strong (26)
I did wonder if she should be having bute is there is any suspicion of ulcers as its a NSAID and is contra indicated. my horse had to have metacam instead.
Is she on any pre or probiotics? or live yogurt.
Sorry you are having these terrible problems and have everything crossed for you. Will give this some more thought. Have you tried asking topspec for advice and samples? Nicola I think it is is very knowledgable.

 

[BeckyMason97]

I'm so sorry to hear about your mare, I can't imagine what you're going through.

I'm not much help but have you tried feeding her different fruit and veg? I would expect you've tried it but what about turnips? Mine like pears too. Have you tried a horslyx? It would at least be something to get vitamins and things into her, my lot love them. My pony loves bananas but my other three won't touch it, think the texture is too strange for them. You could maybe try syringing molasses into a turnip and sticking polos into the side, something that might take her fancy and give her something to play with?

 

[KVH]

I haven't read through all the replies, but has the vet suggested stomach tumours at all?
Best wishes to you and Ebony, know what you're going through.

 

[Tiffany]

So sorry to hear Ebony is still ill, I'm not surprised you need to cry. Can't really offer any advice so sending ((((healing vibes)))) for Ebony and a massive ((((hug)))) for you.

Fingers crossed she starts to improve.

 

[HappyNeds]

I'm sorry but I don't have any helpful advice (I wish I did), but I've been following your thread and wanted to send you and Ebony my best wishes and a big hug xxx

 

[brighteyes]

Another one here thinking chronic GS. If so, it's a long haul. Other than that, my only thoughts is some really weird malabsorption thing. You have my absolute sympathy and good wishes for her to turn the corner and soon.

I looked at your 'feed list' and everything I was going to mention is on it plus lots more. Have you checked there are no imbalances and counter productive ingredients? If it's a case of high value fibre, I'm another fan of Fibre (or Alpha) Beet.

 

[JenHunt]

QB I'm so sorry to hear Ebony isn't well, especially after your last summer! - do you think it could be related to that?

another suggestion for weight gain feeds is Sunlustre, which is an extruded full fat soya meal. It smells like digestive biscuits and it's really easy to mix into feeds. worth a try. if you can't get hold of that then MMF who make speedibeet do a micronised full fat soya which is almost as good.

could it be a very aggressive virus perhaps?

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Have you tried Spillers food? their Slow Response Energy Cubes kept weight on mine in the winter when there was poor grazing and he lived out. There's more fibre content in it than in a lot of low energy cubes, even though Response is a competition food.

 

[ozpoz]

so sorry to hear of your poor mare.

I found that pure apple juice concentrate(from health food shops) was the magic feed bucket add on when I had a similar situation. it's a thick syrup, and I used it without diluting, just mixed in with a dollup on top.

I really hope it all turns around for you both soon. Keep on doing your best - she sounds lucky to have an owner like you!

 

[pootleperkin]

If you are still thinking there is a worry of GS, then get your vet to test with phenylephrine - see link:

http://www.grasssickness.org.uk/egsf-page.aspx?pageID=44

easy test to do and might shed some light.

How's she doing today?

 

[Nugget La Poneh]

Have the vets swabbed for things like salmonella? Uncommon, but possible?

Hopefully the further tests/scans will give you an answer, to me it sounds almost if there is a blockage somewhere?

Hope you get some answers xx

 

[Mince Pie]

Just had a thought, didn't Catembi have a similar problem with her old horse? May be worth having a look through her old threads to see if it's something similar?

 

[Queenbee]

Sorry been busy all evening so just seen all these responses! Absolutely shattered and a wee bit pished!!! So will respond in full to you all in the morning, Ebs is doing well though and still chomping on food!

 

[FionaM12]

Sorry been busy all evening so just seen all these responses! Absolutely shattered and a wee bit pished!!! So will respond in full to you all in the morning, Ebs is doing well though and still chomping on food!

Oh, that's a nice post to read as I'm about to go off to bed. Will look forward to news in full, but glad you're feeling more hopeful. Nnight. xx

 

[Trinity Fox]

Just read this glad she is eating, good to hear.

 

[Parker79]

I hope you are both doing ok this morning...was great to hear she was chomping last night.

 

[Queenbee]

First of all, bare with me... Im responding in 2 posts because HHO has just told me my response is waaaaay to long!

Hi QB sorry to hear all that you are going through.

I havent been through all of the answers so you or somebody might have already discussed this, but with all the bute, heavy dose wormers, lack of weight gain, have you considered hindgut ulcers? GG wont touch those bug*ers, and bute, wormers and too much or changes in feed play havock with the healthy bacteria in the colon, encouraging bad bacteria which then turns the environment acidic and invites ulcers. This leads to weight loss and/or poor doers.

Small feeds are the way forward, with slippery elm and chamomile, a little bran (add water) and a good dose of micronised linseed, plus adlib hay (NOT haylage).

Good luck.

PS I know its difficult because she wont eat properly but be careful with all of the changes in feed, the hindgut needs time to adapt to new feeds - well the healthy bacteria need time to adapt - mess with that and you mess with the bacteria and hey presto hindgut acidious = ulcers = colic = poor doer = weight loss

Hi, yes we have considered this, the bute was in the very first week, as were the antibiotics the wormer, following that she came finished her course of antibiotics and wormers and we stopped the bute while we trialled her on Gastroguard for a fortnight, since there was absolutely no improvement during this time I have now popped the bute back into her for a couple of nights, there was a period (right at the begining) when she gained a bit of weight and during this time she was on bute so I thought i may as well give it a go while we are in between treatments.

I have thought of hind gut ulcers and one of the things that we are going to trial is egusin, for this very reason, but we can only logically trial one theory at a time and see if it works... its a process of elimination and dont want her to be on loads of treatments and not know which one is working, we have guarded the 'good bacteria as much as possible' she is on double dose of proteinex probiotic and has been since the very begining.

I hear what you say re the changes of feed, but gradual changes are not an option, only the other week she was wolfing down fast fibre, now if you try and sneak a spoonful into her feed she wont eat any of it, so the rule book is out the window, its a case of whatever she will eat she gets, its all we can do for her.

Im so so sorry, this must be so scary for you. Sending every ounce of positivity your way. Shes a lovely mare & i SOOO want to see pics of her having come through this. If I were you I would have her taken in and thoroughly investigated. Fingers crossed- please keep us posted on how shes doing x

ETA: Another poster has just started a thread about kidney failure.apparently their horse experienced rapid weight loss.........just a suggestion??

thank you, all kidney function is normal though, fluid intake and output are normal so its not kidneys

So sorry to read about your girl. I'm no expert and have no suggestions on whats wrong with her.

Just a suggestion for weight gain. My oldie dropped a lot in winter and got colic caused by a tooth it appears. I tried all sorts to put it back but just couldn't get the calories high enough. I was thinking it was near the end.

I managed to turn it around (before the grass grew and helped) by feeding raw molasses. It improved his appetite, he dives on his food now, has gained weight and his coat is beautiful. He will also eat any kind of food when the molasses are added which is useful.

I do know the risks, but he's 36 and never had lami so I took the chance. It has paid off so far.

He also loves cow parsley and it has not done him any harm. His other favourite if we can find them is dandelions.

she ate the YOs baby willows last night PMSL he was mortified until I told him she was obviously self medicating and he then gave her a scratch and a pat and said they would grow back

well i have read most of the responses! but at the beginning my thought was chronic GS I am afraid.
Don't know why as I have never had one with it.
One of the girls at the farm had a horse with a mild form, it never sweated and always did some pooh's, but was very fussy about eating and drinking and lost lots of weight, if you held the bucket up for him he took water better, She did like you and tried allsorts of feed, he liked bananas in fact some days it was all he would have.
He did keep getting a swollen tummy and kept having to have excess fluid drained from his stomach.
He did recover and is still going strong (26)
I did wonder if she should be having bute is there is any suspicion of ulcers as its a NSAID and is contra indicated. my horse had to have metacam instead.
Is she on any pre or probiotics? or live yogurt.
Sorry you are having these terrible problems and have everything crossed for you. Will give this some more thought. Have you tried asking topspec for advice and samples? Nicola I think it is is very knowledgable.

Hi, thats interesting about the GS, shes good with her water but as youve read a flipping nightmare over feed, I tried bananas the other day 'Queen Bee was NOT amused'
To be honest even though we are not completely ruling out hind gut ulcers we are far more inclined to think it is some malabsorption syndrome or GS, she isnt nearly tetchy enough when you palpate her... infact not really at all and the sheer rapidity of the weight loss is bleeding shocking, more than you'd normally expect, that combined with the lack of response to the pressure points for external diagnosis doesnt really lend itself to ulcers... although as i said, if the other more possible diagnoses dont come through then once again i will look into egusin.

She is on probiotics (proteinex) and I spoke with topspec yesterday they are sending me some samples they were fab

 

[Queenbee]

I'm so sorry to hear about your mare, I can't imagine what you're going through.

I'm not much help but have you tried feeding her different fruit and veg? I would expect you've tried it but what about turnips? Mine like pears too. Have you tried a horslyx? It would at least be something to get vitamins and things into her, my lot love them. My pony loves bananas but my other three won't touch it, think the texture is too strange for them. You could maybe try syringing molasses into a turnip and sticking polos into the side, something that might take her fancy and give her something to play with?

she has carrots and the odd apples, she would normally have a sweede but she cant be bothered with the hassle of chasing it around the floor! I even tried blending carrots up but she still wouldnt eat her feed, so she gets them separately as a treat

I haven't read through all the replies, but has the vet suggested stomach tumours at all?
Best wishes to you and Ebony, know what you're going through.

Hi, another thing that is semi in the back of our mind, although the one thing that we struggle with its the rapidity and the acute nature of her weight loss in the first week... if it was due to a tumour we would expect her have continued to decline with speed if it were a tumor, so we havent completely ruled it out, but there are things that make us question this as a diagnosis.

Another one here thinking chronic GS. If so, it's a long haul. Other than that, my only thoughts is some really weird malabsorption thing. You have my absolute sympathy and good wishes for her to turn the corner and soon.

I looked at your 'feed list' and everything I was going to mention is on it plus lots more. Have you checked there are no imbalances and counter productive ingredients? If it's a case of high value fibre, I'm another fan of Fibre (or Alpha) Beet.

BE, those are exactly the two that i think are the strongest possibilities.

With regards to the feeds, yes there is a lot there, but she doesnt have it all in one day she has what she wants to eat that day, last week it was fast fibre, protein pellets, protinex and haemavite b plus, this week she wont touch FF, so its mollichaff (not my choice.. hers!) and topline build up mix proteinex and haemavite b plus (and now chaste berries for helping to lower the cortisol) Haemavite is full of b vitamins, and is really boosting her, I try and make sure that she has a high calorie feed and a high fibre, her probiotic and her blood tonic although she hates the berries so im thinking of grinding them up and mixing them with puréed carrot and syringing them in... It looks a lot, but thats only because she keeps going off her feeds

QB I'm so sorry to hear Ebony isn't well, especially after your last summer! - do you think it could be related to that?

another suggestion for weight gain feeds is Sunlustre, which is an extruded full fat soya meal. It smells like digestive biscuits and it's really easy to mix into feeds. worth a try. if you can't get hold of that then MMF who make speedibeet do a micronised full fat soya which is almost as good.

could it be a very aggressive virus perhaps?

Yeah, could be a virus... in which case it must just run its course... we dont think its related to her ballooning, but we did discuss the possibility, she has always ballooned (although that was the worst) shes always had a rumbly acidic tummy... always been a stresser, which is why we thought it may be stomach ulcers at one point.

Thanks for the suggestions

Have you tried Spillers food? their Slow Response Energy Cubes kept weight on mine in the winter when there was poor grazing and he lived out. There's more fibre content in it than in a lot of low energy cubes, even though Response is a competition food.

Hi, what we are looking for is really high calorie, high protein food, on the premiss that if it is malabsorption or GS (which are the 2 most likely now) this is the best treatment, if the stomach/gut absorbtion is compromised, and only working at say 25% efficiency we want what it absorbs to pack as much of a calorific punch as possible, balancing that with fibre and good forage and a probiotic to maintain the best possible gut function.

so sorry to hear of your poor mare.

I found that pure apple juice concentrate(from health food shops) was the magic feed bucket add on when I had a similar situation. it's a thick syrup, and I used it without diluting, just mixed in with a dollup on top.

I really hope it all turns around for you both soon. Keep on doing your best - she sounds lucky to have an owner like you!

Hi, yeah i did think of something like this but I am wary of using something like this because of acidity, I dont want to add to the acidity levels in the stomach.

If you are still thinking there is a worry of GS, then get your vet to test with phenylephrine - see link:

http://www.grasssickness.org.uk/egsf-page.aspx?pageID=44

easy test to do and might shed some light.

How's she doing today?

Poots, I was talking to the GS woman and she said that while there are these tests, the only really conclusive test is a post mortem... Ebs could test negative on this and still have GS, also, there is nothing more that I could be doing for her further than the type of care she is having now, Im doing exactly what they would reccomend.

Have the vets swabbed for things like salmonella? Uncommon, but possible?

Hopefully the further tests/scans will give you an answer, to me it sounds almost if there is a blockage somewhere?

Hope you get some answers xx

No they havent but the symptoms have never matched a possible salmonella diagnosis. Thank you anyway

Just had a thought, didn't Catembi have a similar problem with her old horse? May be worth having a look through her old threads to see if it's something similar?

Dont know, Ill have a peek

To everyone else who sent well wishes thank you all.

A wee update this morning... madam is out in the lane with a stable rug and a medium weight full neck turnout rug on, the lane has some lovely grass in it and really high hedges, at the moment the weather outside is gloomy, murky windy and downright miserable, but the rain is holding off so she is having a nibble and a leg stretch. This morning we had forgotten what we were supposed to do with haylage and food... 'YOU EAT IT YOU STOOOOOPID FOOL!!' and about half her nights quota of hay was left in her stable and her breakkie went untouched. I am not too worried though, she is having a tired day today, but to be fair, even her tired days are better than her good days during her first week of being poorly. And Last night as I said she ate all her tea, and I then topped her up again before I went with a big bucket for the night and that was gone this morning, so this is just a blip. Plus Rowan Barbary feed samples arrived today so im going to add one of these to her food in a bit and see if this helps, there is a really nice herby one (solution mash) its got mints and fenugreek in it and smelly lurrrrrvely... if she doesnt want it I may munch it down myself

 

[Oberon]

My Tank is very fussy about feeds. He was born in deepest, darkest Blackburn and he likes grass and haylage and doesn't do 'foreign food'.

But he went absolutely mad for the Solution Mash.

 

[happyhacking:)]

Mine has just come back from Rossdales. Similar sort of issue but not exactly. It has turned out that mine has arthritis in the joint that is below the tongue just under the guttural pouch. So she is going to have to have a section of bone removed on a few months time.

However she has in the meantime come home on bute but due to the number of drugs she is on and a couple of abnormalities in her gut she has also been put on cytotec tablets to ward of gastric ulcers ect. They are not actually licences for use in horses yet but the vets think that it is worth the potential risks to get some weight on her.

 

[Nightmare before Christmas]

Knew a pony that sounded slightly like this (I dont know your full story), this pony had liver issues in the end from suspected ragwort poisoning that would have happened years before, but showed no signs. He also had suspected cushings.

Glad your horse seemed better last night (if I read posts right). Sending wellness vibes your way right now I cant really offer any advise or help really