Can we cope with ban on spurs/whips etc.?

[DizzyDoughnut]

I am torn on this, I can see that whips and spurs aren't a problem if used correctly, but you see so many people using them incorrectly! I've given up watching any high level competition of any discipline because it makes me feel uncomfortable. The same goes for all the photos that pop up on facebook of local shows, and just in general of people doing random things with their horse that the horse is clearly unhappy about but they are completely oblivious to. Obviously this isn't everyone, but there is a lot and the more I notice it the more I seem to see. I can see that some things like spurs are used to refine aids but generally I don't think you should need harsher bits, nosebands etc to have control, and if you find that you do need to keep adding harsher equipment then to me it would be a training issue and would need to be worked on rather than just covering up the issue with gadgets. Obviously different horses respond to different bits etc, I'm not saying everyone should be going round in a headcollar.

I've had a bit of change in attitude recently, I've gone from working on racing yards and training in a fairly traditional method. Now I'm mainly doing a combination of following Warwick Schiller, clicker training and just trusting my instincts. I'm now the person that younger me would have scoffed at. But since I've started changing my ways my ponies have become so much more willing and enthusiastic, the youngster thinks learning stuff is the best fun ever and the older one has gone from being a complete twit to lead in new places or across open spaces with rearing spinning and trying to bog off, trying to threaten and intimidate people in the field, refusing to leave his mates and would have a total panic, now a small child can lead him and do anything with him and at the grand age of 20 he's going to his first ever show next month as moral support for the young one, I still can't quite believe the change from pony I used to dread having to do things with, to one that is now a super good boy with his own little fan club of small people.

 

[milliepops]

As for criticising amateurs instead of professionals... Professionals get paid for this. Professionals are the 'role models' for the sport; they're who represent us at the Olympics, whose example tells amateurs what's acceptable, and whatnot. There needs to be a change in our attitude towards, and education about horses from bottom-up but being stricter on competitive riders is about as quick a "fix" as we've got.

i have been far, far more upset helping out at a local RC show than watching any professional level competition that i can recall. I was gutted for some of those horses and i never went back.
the quick fix will have no impact on those riders whatsoever. I don't want to detail all the particularly dreadful "horsemanship" that happens at some of the grass roots but I'm going out on a limb to say the role model thing isn't particularly meaningful because otherwise people would try to do better.

 

[maya2008]

I completely fail to understand how a light flick with a dressage whip is worse than a hefty kick. Or yanking on the mouth on an unruly horse in a snaffle is better than a harsher bit used lightly.

 

[eahotson]

My two cents on the matter (expressed as tamely/PC as I can manage):

Spurs should never be compulsory. And they certainly shouldn't be consistently used in SJ and XC either. I can understand the refinement argument for using them in dressage, but nothing about jumping requires refined aids.

Bitless should be acceptable, as should going in one of those bit-no-bridle things. If that means that even one horse can compete in tack it prefers, and be a little more comfortable when competing, then that's what needs to happen. Sometimes I wonder if, with all these restrictions, we're not getting a fair sample of high-level riders, since the ones that want to be more alternative may not be able to compete.

The normalisation of flashes is absolutely foul. Almost every time I see someone riding with a flash, it's much too tight, both amateurs or professionals, though professionals seem especially reliant on them. I believe it was Sylvia Loch that said she'd never met a horse that actually needed a flash? Regardless, mouth opens for a reason. You don't deserve to just shove some leather on a horse so you get to ignore why this is happening. I'd quite like for there to be heavy restrictions on their use and serious consequences for anyone who has too tight a flash (again, this is me being tame). (ETA: same with drop nosebands. Very rarely do I see them loose enough, upsettingly often I see them too low down the horse's muzzle, and their use doesn't address why the horse was crossing its jaw, if that's what you're using them for.)

Sure, theoretically, it's about who uses the bit/gadget/etc not the gadget itself, but if something is consistently being used incorrectly, then there need to be restrictions.

As for criticising amateurs instead of professionals... Professionals get paid for this. Professionals are the 'role models' for the sport; they're who represent us at the Olympics, whose example tells amateurs what's acceptable, and whatnot. There needs to be a change in our attitude towards, and education about horses from bottom-up but being stricter on competitive riders is about as quick a "fix" as we've got.

like very much.

 

[oldie48]

I can't help thinking that if someone feels that spurs and whips should be banned, then I think they should also add saddles, bridles, bits and all the gadgets that people use incorrectly on horses. I do not condone abuse of any kind but I see more harm coming from saddles etc that don't fit, that are used every day on a horse than a horse being touched with a schooling whip to ask it to move it's H/Qs or get in front of the leg. A properly trained horse will know immediately what is being asked because it will have been used to being touched and a poorly trained horse will not. It's not tack and gadgets that are the problem its the riders using them and general ignorance. I also would like to see any abuse at competitions treated very seriously and that should be as much for low key UA shows as for high profile ones.

 

[stangs]

i have been far, far more upset helping out at a local RC show than watching any professional level competition that i can recall. I was gutted for some of those horses and i never went back.
the quick fix will have no impact on those riders whatsoever. I don't want to detail all the particularly dreadful "horsemanship" that happens at some of the grass roots but I'm going out on a limb to say the role model thing isn't particularly meaningful because otherwise people would try to do better.

We're not in disagreement. I completely agree that there's a lot of abuse, some from ignorance but not all, at lower levels, and that harsher restrictions on professionals would have a very limited effect on this (hence why I put fix in quotation marks). But I do believe the normalisation of certain pieces of tack at high level competition and how its used has some influence on amateurs.

And the role model thing is meaningful when it comes to non-horsey people who are currently looking at the sport very critically as regards animal welfare, and rightfully so. They don't see the local UA; they see the Olympics and 5*s and they make their minds up off of that.

 

[NinjaPony]

Hmm I’m not sure about spurs. I certainly think they should only be used by experienced riders but god knows how you police that. I found spurs very useful on my connie once we were schooling medium level stuff at home and elementary out competing. A round blunt spur allows you to be much more precise about where you put your leg, which is particularly useful for lateral work, counter canter etc where aids can get muddled. For me the main problem with spurs is that people use them to get a lazy horse off the leg, when spurs should be used to make an aid much smaller and more refined on a horse that is *already* off the leg. I haven’t used spurs since I retired my connie from competing, because once we stopped schooling the higher movements they were no longer necessary…

To ban them altogether could be really detrimental to dressage at the high levels because of the precision involved in the aids eg between halfpass and canter.

That said, I’m glad to see them tighten up the rules on marking, and I can’t honestly think why you would need spurs for jumping? Perhaps something with much more SJ/XC experience could explain.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Yes banging on the ponies sides to get it to jump for OUR own satisfaction apparently is acceptable. Not in my school it wasn't. You respect the animal your riding and learn how to ride it from your seat and leg aids.

Absolutely! I was 12 and quite tall for my age when I started riding lessons at a local rs, one of several quite similar ones, run by members of the local Hunt.
I was started on an elderly cob, whose workload was carefully monitored. He had been owned by the family for years. Then I graduated onto the horses that hunted regularly, the smaller ponies were shown and hunted by the family's children. Those equines only taught at the weekends, in the main and had varied lives.
Those equines were not behind the leg because they had such a varied workload and were regularly ridden by very experienced riders. All those local family run RS have closed and now RS have to be able to operate virtually every day, so their equines don't get variety in the same way.

 

[scats]

I used to freelance at riding schools and I absolutely hated hearing other instructors telling young riders to kick. I don’t think young riders (or any riders) should be encouraged to see an animal as something you kick to get it to do what you want.
Yet those are the words I grew up hearing when I was on riding school ponies- kick it, whip it etc.

The problem with a whip is that it can and is often used as a weapon of punishment. I’d like to say that every time I’ve seen a whip being used, it’s been to gently reinforce a riders leg, but the reality is I have seen whips being used in absolutely horrendous ways, by both amateurs and professionals. And I see many videos on social media, and occasionally on this forum, of people with extremely unstable lower legs spurring their horses side with every stride and seemingly being completely unaware of it. And these aren’t novice riders either, quite the opposite.

I use spurs to school Millie if we are doing lateral work. She finds it much easier to respond to a light sideways aid with the spurs on and I feel better not having to apply a stronger leg aid to get the same result. They are little round blunt spurs though, I wouldn’t feel comfortable riding in anything else, nor do I feel I would need to for our rather minuscule level of work.

 

[Chianti]

This almost makes me go down this slippery slope about what or why we're even subjecting these animals to riding anyway.

Sometimes I get a weird moment and wonder if we should be doing any of this at all. Odd mental struggle at times, don't know how to explain it well.

Exactly my thoughts now. Since I read 'I Can't watch Anymore' I've really started to question the whole horse world. I'm quite happy to have a horse/ pony as a pet. The last one was retired for ten years but most people want to 'do' something with their horse- not just be with it.

 

[jules9203]

Wow, tricky isn't it!! Most of us seem to agree that bits/hands/nosebands/whips/spurs/legs used with subtlety and kindness are ok. Someone earlier mentioned learning on a mechanical horse. This might be a good way forward for all those poor long suffering RS ponies. Also the inclusion of bitless bridles (although these can be cruel in the wrong hands). I think the two of the main problems are 1.How the non horsey public (NHP) see us, and 2. What language we use when coaching.
The first - how do we educate the NHP? It absolutely needs a change from the top, which is seen on TV. Whether you are pro or anti racing CH4 have done a brilliant job re gaining more understanding into the racing world. This should be encouraged in all other equine sports.
The second - Our language... Coaches need to understand that if they are teaching young child in a RS the chances are there are mum, dad and possibly granny watching. As has been said the phrases "kick on, hit it" etc don't go down well anymore.

 

[eahotson]

Exactly my thoughts now. Since I read 'I Can't watch Anymore' I've really started to question the whole horse world. I'm quite happy to have a horse/ pony as a pet. The last one was retired for ten years but most people want to 'do' something with their horse- not just be with it.

that book is an eye opener isn't it.I think it's caused a bit of a stir.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

What does annoy me is everyone wears a grackle now. Dressage, jumping, hacking etc. It has become the norm. Does the horse really need it? Are you just using it as a tool to avoid schooling your horse properly? There is one so called producer near me who rides every single horse and pony in a grackle. She even breaks them in using one! When I questioned her on it - when she posted 6 different hordes and ponies doing intro-novice level dressage tests - I got my comment deleted ?

We use grackles on our horses racing for 2 reasons - 1. It gives the Jockey a wee bit more control if the horse is too keen. 2 it helps the horse breath by not allowing it open its mouth wide enough to swallow its tongue and choke on it. Apart from that everything is in a snaffle or dextor. We can't really use any other bits or anything other than simple mouthpieces without permission from the BHA vets and we need a good reason.

 

[fetlock]

What does annoy me is everyone wears a grackle now. Dressage, jumping, hacking etc. It has become the norm. Does the horse really need it? Are you just using it as a tool to avoid schooling your horse properly? There is one so called producer near me who rides every single horse and pony in a grackle. She even breaks them in using one! When I questioned her on it - when she posted 6 different hordes and ponies doing intro-novice level dressage tests - I got my comment deleted ?

We use grackles on our horses racing for 2 reasons - 1. It gives the Jockey a wee bit more control if the horse is too keen. 2 it helps the horse breath by not allowing it open its mouth wide enough to swallow its tongue and choke on it. Apart from that everything is in a snaffle or dextor. We can't really use any other bits or anything other than simple mouthpieces without permission from the BHA vets and we need a good reason.

A grackle seems to be more the norm than not in WHP classes now too. Guessing it's to look more "performance pony" like and a showing fashion accessory in most cases, than because the pony actually needs it. Likewise with the martingales and pelham/grackle combos.

 

[tristar]

i`ve never used spurs, sometimes carry a schooling whip, training is all about responsiveness, creating sensitivity, and having a partnership with another living creature, you understand each other, get pleasure from each other

to see a happy faced horse after its been ridden is a joy, i think an achievement to be proud of

 

[catkin]

What does annoy me is everyone wears a grackle now. Dressage, jumping, hacking etc. It has become the norm. Does the horse really need it? Are you just using it as a tool to avoid schooling your horse properly? There is one so called producer near me who rides every single horse and pony in a grackle. She even breaks them in using one! When I questioned her on it - when she posted 6 different hordes and ponies doing intro-novice level dressage tests - I got my comment deleted ?

We use grackles on our horses racing for 2 reasons - 1. It gives the Jockey a wee bit more control if the horse is too keen. 2 it helps the horse breath by not allowing it open its mouth wide enough to swallow its tongue and choke on it. Apart from that everything is in a snaffle or dextor. We can't really use any other bits or anything other than simple mouthpieces without permission from the BHA vets and we need a good reason.

There was a research paper published a few years ago that found that grackles were more comfortable for the horse than other nosebands.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

There was a research paper published a few years ago that found that grackles were more comfortable for the horse than other nosebands.

If done up correctly. However the majority are not and you see the flesh bulging around the leather as they are done up far too tightly.

 

[Flicker]

I’m definitely in the ‘light touch behind the leg rather than a kick‘ camp but I’m not a fan of spurs. Having recently invested money that I would have been spending on livery on lessons at a very good riding school, however, I feel that I only now really use a schooling whip correctly. My leg aids are now very light and I have a much better feel of when to follow up with a light flick of the whip. As my instructor says, ‘your horse knows when I fly lands on his skin. He is sensitive enough to feel the tickle of your whip behind your leg. You don’t need to boot him or tap too hard’.

With my last horse, I competed at a dressage competition where whips and spurs were not allowed. All the combos that would normally be in the ribbons really struggled and the horses and ponies that just went forward naturally in a nice rhythm did really well. It was nice to see.

 

[stangs]

There was a research paper published a few years ago that found that grackles were more comfortable for the horse than other nosebands.

People keep saying this, but I’m yet to see this in an actual study. All I’ve seen is the Fairfax website claim this, but their own study has nothing to do with grackles.

 

[milliepops]

I’m definitely in the ‘light touch behind the leg rather than a kick‘ camp but I’m not a fan of spurs. Having recently invested money that I would have been spending on livery on lessons at a very good riding school, however, I feel that I only now really use a schooling whip correctly. My leg aids are now very light and I have a much better feel of when to follow up with a light flick of the whip. As my instructor says, ‘your horse knows when I fly lands on his skin. He is sensitive enough to feel the tickle of your whip behind your leg. You don’t need to boot him or tap too hard’.

With my last horse, I competed at a dressage competition where whips and spurs were not allowed. All the combos that would normally be in the ribbons really struggled and the horses and ponies that just went forward naturally in a nice rhythm did really well. It was nice to see.

I think this illustrates that some people use those aids without understanding the correct application of them, rather than whips/ spurs are inherently bad.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I often carry a whip. On hacks I've found it useful for a few things and while schooling I use it every now and again. Mostly a light tap to ask for more activation in the hind end, not to go faster. I also use it to train Spanish walk, piaffe, and other in hand stuff. It doesn't really touch the horse in these exercises and is just sort of an extension of my body. I also taught my horse to pick up the whip from the ground and he thinks this is cool ?

There's a lot of misuse of spurs that I see. When your horse is lazy or dull to your leg, the answer (here) is spurs. People use them so much and are applying them nearly every step. It often looks rough and just laborious

I was actually surprised that spurs and a whip are allowed at the low levels here.

To me a spur can be used for refinement. As in the dressage horse has a few different buttons on its sides, the spurs can allow you to precisely and clearly push those buttons. Therefore, at the upper levels with a more educated horse and rider, they could be allowed (but not mandatory) at the lower levels, no. You do not need spurs for basic walk, trot, and canter work, IMO.

Don't even get me started on the double which can be used as a crutch for so many things. Again, this is a refinement tool. It's for communication. It's not to manage your heavy or strong horse. You manage that with training, in a snaffle, before you go to the double. Sure it can make the horse feel lighter or more controlled, so it must be for that, right? No, not in my opinion.

Sure, some horses "like leverage" right? Um, well, I don't know that they like it but it's just that they respond to it based off of basic mechanics. This response can vary.

Sure the double has its place and uses, but I think it can be overused or used incorrectly, as with most things, really.

If you have the skill and the brains, whips, spurs, and/or the double bridle should not hurt the horse. They can enhance communication but should still be used with finesse and an understanding of the basics. They're not to be used because "they should be" or because "so and so top level rider does it" there is a top level rider that competed here at S level (high level) with a snaffle. This doesn't make her any less educated, capable, or refined in her riding, IMO (she won the class, btw). People really feel as though it should all be a part of the horses education, and to some extent, yes, but some are way to rigid and black and white about it. It's not, "Oh, we're riding at M level so time for a double!" It's not just a box to check, there are other things to take into consideration.

All that being said, I am merely a nobody with these opinions ? I often look at my horse and wonder if he should just be a pet, and maybe one day he will be. Only for grooming and the odd handwalk or something. I know that riding causes him stress he wouldn't otherwise have. I know that while he seems to enjoy interacting, it doesn't have to be via riding. I know that I'm not entitled to ride him merely because he is a horse. I struggle with it, and I'm not quite sure what to do sometimes. If he was the more ho hum type I might not think about it so much, but he's very mental.

 

[sbloom]

You could have badges or whatever instead to chart progress: Your 'trot' badge or your 'canter' badge that basically says you can trot without falling off. Like 5,10,25m badges for swimming.

I spent a couple of years at a place called European Equestrian Sports - if you were a beginner you started on the lunge and could only ride the horses graded for beginners once you were off the lunge. As a rider you continually went for regrades so you could ride the better horses who had a grade range they could take. There were horses that were working up to GP, it wasn't perfect (the GP horse was often ridden in draw reins which these days I would HATE, didn't like it much then, but they were used now and again to give beginners a feel on what was a very strong mare. The horses didn't have as much variety in their work as they really should have, even then, but they did the odd hack, most jumped a bit, and they didn't get horribly stale or at all dead to the aids in the way that so many RS horses do.

very easy to dish out the criticism at pros rather than look closer to home, innit.

I think changing things at the top enables things to be better implemented lower down. Those who abuse horses, stepping over current rules and codes of conduct, will always do it. Anyone plugged into a PC, RC, RS or any other competitive environment would at least be shown better ways. There are very few ways of enforcing change on lower level riders unless we massively up the welfare rules.

This almost makes me go down this slippery slope about what or why we're even subjecting these animals to riding anyway.

Sometimes I get a weird moment and wonder if we should be doing any of this at all. Odd mental struggle at times, don't know how to explain it well.

Yep, I'm teetering on this much of the time.

I completely fail to understand how a light flick with a dressage whip is worse than a hefty kick. Or yanking on the mouth on an unruly horse in a snaffle is better than a harsher bit used lightly.

I used to think this 100% and I'd still say it's a truism, doesn't mean its the best model we can follow. I think a double bridle and spurs, in the right hands, perhaps a Legerete trainer, anyone working on CORREC classical principles, are still a very good way to do upper level dressage using the current paradigm. However, if we went to a completely new one, working solely with the nature of the horse, connecting with them, never pushing them into learned helplessness, always giving them choice, then I think we leave all that behind. I don't think I'd be sad if that happened but we'd all have to become completely different kinds of horsepeople, and many would give up. For me that's not a problem. Can't see it ever happening, I think PETA will get horse riding banned before that happened (decades away in all likelihood), though I wish it wasn't so.

(And if we were giving our horses choice in all things then we'd KNOW they'd be happy ridden, so all these worries and feelings of guilt that some of us have would evaporate).

 

[CanteringCarrot]

FWIW, we have badges and competition qualifications. A whole system. It works to some extent and perhaps has some advantages over not having this, but there's room for improvement.

 

[catkin]

If done up correctly. However the majority are not and you see the flesh bulging around the leather as they are done up far too tightly.

Ah yes, fully agree
(Isn't it sad that the proviso 'correctly' always has to be added)

 

[milliepops]

I think changing things at the top enables things to be better implemented lower down. Those who abuse horses, stepping over current rules and codes of conduct, will always do it. Anyone plugged into a PC, RC, RS or any other competitive environment would at least be shown better ways. There are very few ways of enforcing change on lower level riders unless we massively up the welfare rules.

Telling Carl Hester that he can no longer use spurs is simply not going to stop a weekend rider from thumping their horse in frustration, I just don't buy it I'm afraid.

 

[tristar]

I’m definitely in the ‘light touch behind the leg rather than a kick‘ camp but I’m not a fan of spurs. Having recently invested money that I would have been spending on livery on lessons at a very good riding school, however, I feel that I only now really use a schooling whip correctly. My leg aids are now very light and I have a much better feel of when to follow up with a light flick of the whip. As my instructor says, ‘your horse knows when I fly lands on his skin. He is sensitive enough to feel the tickle of your whip behind your leg. You don’t need to boot him or tap too hard’.

With my last horse, I competed at a dressage competition where whips and spurs were not allowed. All the combos that would normally be in the ribbons really struggled and the horses and ponies that just went forward naturally in a nice rhythm did really well. It was nice to see.

great, it would make people look deeply into cause and reaction, and those whose horses go nicely from leg alone have proof of training correctly,

which after all is what dressage is supposed to founded on

 

[sbloom]

Telling Carl Hester that he can no longer use spurs is simply not going to stop a weekend rider from thumping their horse in frustration, I just don't buy it I'm afraid.

Nothing is as linear as that, and everything takes time to filter down. Nothing will stop some owners thumping a horse, but taking away these aids AND adding stricter welfare laws leads eventually to at least peer pressure even if the law doesn't reach these people when it needs to. When faced with change we all tend to think that it won't work, or that it's the end of the world, and so often we're proven wrong. Different topic entirely, and would relate more to the aids/kit than to how we physically deal with our horses, but interesting that raising the age that cigarettes can be bought from a school age 18, to 21, has reduced smoking rates in under 18s too. If spurs, harsh bits, other aids, weren't sold in shops that would make a change that would filter down, but I'd NOT endorse that as a change on its own. We need the welfare rules to change so there's a shift of attitude.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Telling Carl Hester that he can no longer use spurs is simply not going to stop a weekend rider from thumping their horse in frustration, I just don't buy it I'm afraid.

While it may not stop that weekend rider, it may stop other riders. I totally get what you're saying and I can see both sides of this. However, if those at the highest levels stop doing something or start doing something, whatever that may be, it does trickle down. It does not and cannot reach everyone though, but it's hard to make a change that can.

Anyone can buy a horse and just go off and do whatever, so while we cannot expect a full effect or while we may not reach that weekend rider, we may reach some.

Changing from the bottom up is incredibly difficult, changing from to top down, is difficult but generally more effective. Or, it could be tackled on both ends, ideally.

There are no doubt some sub par riders out there overusing spurs that do pay attention to the top riders and want to be trendy or like them. If CDJ stopped using spurs I know some mediocre riders out there that would worship this decision and stop using spurs too. Are there bigger and more fish to fry? Yes, definitely. Would it end incorrect or harsh riding? No. I don't know what would aside from ending riding all together.

This does not negate the fact that we do need to look "closer to home"

 

[tristar]

could there be an element of when pushing a horse faster than it needs to go at any time from backing onwards by use of heavy aids, dodgy bits etc is what is leading people to question riding horses at all, because they feel something is not right when riding a horse that has not gone completely through the long process of being allowed to develop every muscle necessary to give that great feeling that tells you, ` this is a well broken, well trained horse who enjoys its work`

we all know fad and fashion are components that filter down

judging by the disillusionment expressed on here about modern top level dressage, `cant bear to watch` its probably time things did change from the top down, in this case or the bottom up

and from the early training which is critical to making a horse, that very expression, making a horse is exactly what happens, not rushing through the early stages like a blind lemming, and expecting results and judging it by competition scores but learning to make a horse from scratch instead of destroying it, and then sitting there blaming the horse, or saying should we not be riding horses, when its out own stupid fault and there is nothing wrong with the horse, only our methods which have failed

 

[milliepops]

Personally, no. I have horses that seem to enjoy their work and whose development I've been totally at ease with. I still have this nagging feeling that they shouldn't be ridden at all. They deserve to exist just for themselves rather than as a conditional thing that depends on them working. ?