Leandy
Well-Known Member
Fair enough. I don't.
Can we cope with ban on spurs/whips etc.?
- Thread starter MagicMelon
- Start date
Fair enough. I don't.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
Agreed. First ride on my loan horse he spooked, and then freaked out. i would guess he's been told off for spooking in the past. i can understand why that makes sense to a human but as you say it doesn't really add up to a horse. it made a big spook a lot worse
He's a bit nervy about whips, but from a general training POV that's so unhelpful and i intend to teach him how to see it as a guide. He's a talented horse and i would like something other than the blunt instrument of a boot heel to help him to learn more advanced things. For me this is where education to a whip and/or spurs is useful. This particular horse goes behind the leg in his *mind* so thumping away does no good and nor would adding a whip for that purpose, he's a proper textbook case in terms of using transitions etc to refresh him forward.
Leandy
Well-Known Member
There is a difference between inflicting pain unnecessarily, and a short brief smack as a "listen to me and please walk on in your own interests to get you away from the scary [whatever] and not fall in the ditch, so we can both continue with our lovely hack which we are both enjoying". If we could stop and discuss it that would be great but horses are simpler than that and such things are part of communication within the benevolent relationship we have with them.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Just on the whip issue - and this is something of a diversion I admit; when I ride out with my family we often take a hunting whip with lash and thong - NOT for whipping our horses but because the handle is terrific for helping with gates and if we meet a rogue stallion on the open hill or some overly enthusiastic bullocks/aggressive dogs etc the long whip can be used to prevent injury or attack. Mostly it does nothing or gets used as an alternative anti-fly device. I am sure people seeing us might think how brutal we were to even carry such a thing but that isn't the reality! And no, I don't want to be in a situation where I am having to use it for defensive reasons! I know lots of people that carry a whip and barely use it - thankfully I don't see much whip use at all in my peer/friendship group. Last weekend at a xc clinic, not one participant used a whip (I saw 3 sessions) - not sure how many people were carrying one (I wasn't). All the horses involved were certainly not all well schooled either. But I hear those that are saying inappropriate whip use is a problem.
sakura
Well-Known Member
I disagree. My mare was a terrible spooker when she was younger (and still is sometimes at her big age of 16). She never responded well to the whip (yes, I tried it) but has always overcome napping and reversing with time and patience. She has spooked in the middle of roads, around ditches etc and I tried everything over the years - the only thing that worked both short term and long term was getting off, leading her past the immediate threat and allowing her to process her fear (when possible). The whip always just made her worse. I appreciate all horses and situations are different, I can only speak for my own.
NinjaPony
Well-Known Member
You can always tell when a whip has been misused because the horse will either be switched off to it, or overreact to it. That tells you it’s not been used correctly as a training aid. I massively prefer using a schooling whip because it feels like an extension of your leg, and a pointer aid. I find short whips are much more blunt’, just by virtue of having to take your hand off the rein to use them, they are not nearly as subtle.
My connie was as good as gold, a proper ‘perfect’ pony but if you had hit him properly with a schooling whip you would have been dumped very quickly because he had been trained (not by me, his previous owner was great) to respond to a light flick of the schooling whip. You could hold it anywhere near him and he wouldn’t flinch, he never expected to be hit with it and he never was. But with a laidback pony, it was helpful to have an extra aid to explain what was needed, eg a little flick on the shoulder before medium so he knew he needed some extra reach but without changing gait.
That said, I’d be fine if whips were banned at shows because at least for dressage, they should be a training aid, therefore in theory you shouldn’t be using one at a show.
Re punishments for spooking, I have always found that it escalates things. My preferred way is always to try and get the horse to stop and think before they react. My Welsh is a big overreactor so the best way is to ignore, let him stop, reassure him and then calmly encourage him to carry on. Years of doing this has helped reduce the drama tendencies, he does at least stop himself after a spook. I was talking to my instructor and she was telling me how she was riding an ex competition horse who would take off after hitting a jump, expecting a smack. So what she did (and it takes real guts to do this which I don’t have!) is she just sat there while he zoomed off around the school and didn’t touch his mouth. Eventually, he slowed down, and got a big pat and a loose rein reward. Now I don’t have the guts/skill to do that myself, but thought it was a really good approach from someone much more experienced. A bit sad as well for the horse, who by all accounts is sweet and talented.
My connie was as good as gold, a proper ‘perfect’ pony but if you had hit him properly with a schooling whip you would have been dumped very quickly because he had been trained (not by me, his previous owner was great) to respond to a light flick of the schooling whip. You could hold it anywhere near him and he wouldn’t flinch, he never expected to be hit with it and he never was. But with a laidback pony, it was helpful to have an extra aid to explain what was needed, eg a little flick on the shoulder before medium so he knew he needed some extra reach but without changing gait.
That said, I’d be fine if whips were banned at shows because at least for dressage, they should be a training aid, therefore in theory you shouldn’t be using one at a show.
Re punishments for spooking, I have always found that it escalates things. My preferred way is always to try and get the horse to stop and think before they react. My Welsh is a big overreactor so the best way is to ignore, let him stop, reassure him and then calmly encourage him to carry on. Years of doing this has helped reduce the drama tendencies, he does at least stop himself after a spook. I was talking to my instructor and she was telling me how she was riding an ex competition horse who would take off after hitting a jump, expecting a smack. So what she did (and it takes real guts to do this which I don’t have!) is she just sat there while he zoomed off around the school and didn’t touch his mouth. Eventually, he slowed down, and got a big pat and a loose rein reward. Now I don’t have the guts/skill to do that myself, but thought it was a really good approach from someone much more experienced. A bit sad as well for the horse, who by all accounts is sweet and talented.
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sbloom
Well-Known Member
I am, in part, being devils advocate, but not entirely.
The horse doesn't know what is necessary and unnecessary. I'm not talking about stopping to discuss it, if you read again I'm talking about changing our relationship with horses so those situations don't arise for umpteen reasons. I agree, when it comes to safety, sometimes needs must, and yet many people deal with dangerous situations without using pain.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I'd devils advocate back on that and say you can use a wide flappy whip to generate a reaction/make a stimulating noise without causing pain, and sometimes that is all you need to turn a situation around. Like everything it depends on the horse and rider in question and their understanding of the world and each other eta oh and their intentions.
This diversion is endless, you can probably cause more pain patting a horse than lightly slapping with a flappy whip. I think it's been shown that patting is not that well received anyway. It's so hard to have absolutes.
eta oh and their intentions. This diversion is endless, you can probably cause more pain patting a horse than lightly slapping with a flappy whip. I think it's been shown that patting is not that well received anyway. It's so hard to have absolutes.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
oh the patting thing bugs me. we probably all do it. Though i know all my horses prefer a scratch and some would rather they weren't touched anyway, thanks! we are all conditioned to pat our horses aren't we?! back to the constantly trying to do better thing.
see it mentioned so often on here that xyz pro rider "didn't even pat their horse" after the XC or whatever. it's pretty much cultural!
see it mentioned so often on here that xyz pro rider "didn't even pat their horse" after the XC or whatever. it's pretty much cultural!
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
I would add that in a herd horses use pain and threat of pain as communication all the time amongst each other to stop undesirable behaviour. it is therefore something they use themselves as communication. Watch mone together in an 8 acre field and 2 of the boys seek each other out to have a fight… they regularly double barrel each other in a kick that would put me, if not in hospital then in plaster… and anyone whose horse has ‘groomed’ them (my babies have now learnt that im a wuss but used to try and groom me back when i scratched their itchy bits) knows how much that hurts but they love it…. My thin skinned kwpn left you in no doubt that the only brush that i was allowed to use on him was the very scratchy stiff dandy brush etc etc. Which hurt if i lightly ran it along my arm
My point is that horses perception of pain is so different from humans that im not sure we are very well placed to assess the equine experience .
My point is that horses perception of pain is so different from humans that im not sure we are very well placed to assess the equine experience .
palo1
Well-Known Member
As another slight, but relevant, aside; when international Endurance started to feel uncomfortable about some practises within the sport they began to 'ban' stuff. It was very well intentioned BUT it meant that those who wanted to, were able to invent a whole load of other, far more abusive practices which have led to an ongoing welfare disaster in the sport in some places. We should definitely not tar all riders with the same brush here BUT it helps to demonstrate how banning things really, truly may not result in change.
Endurance for eg banned the use of whips. Some riders then started to ride with VERY long reins - used to whip the horses. So they banned those but some riders found other ways to abuse their horses. Various drug practises were outlawed so some riders went freestyle with all manner of substances that were known but hard to detect because the detection systems for those substances hadn't actually been devised. It became, and possibly still is, something of an arms race with detection of abuse always being behind the curve.
You have to make change really imperative and not focus on tools because as others have said you need nuance around how to use training, tools etc. When does what might seem like a friendly 'pat' actually become so hearty or enthusiastic that it is actually 'hitting/slapping' etc. You rarely, if ever hear people criticising that yet is it really any better than using a whip on the shoulder or behind the leg from the horse's perspective? If a response to that 'pat/slap' hasn't been trained it is probably also just unpleasant and confusing for a horse too.
Endurance for eg banned the use of whips. Some riders then started to ride with VERY long reins - used to whip the horses. So they banned those but some riders found other ways to abuse their horses. Various drug practises were outlawed so some riders went freestyle with all manner of substances that were known but hard to detect because the detection systems for those substances hadn't actually been devised. It became, and possibly still is, something of an arms race with detection of abuse always being behind the curve.
You have to make change really imperative and not focus on tools because as others have said you need nuance around how to use training, tools etc. When does what might seem like a friendly 'pat' actually become so hearty or enthusiastic that it is actually 'hitting/slapping' etc. You rarely, if ever hear people criticising that yet is it really any better than using a whip on the shoulder or behind the leg from the horse's perspective? If a response to that 'pat/slap' hasn't been trained it is probably also just unpleasant and confusing for a horse too.
Peglo
Well-Known Member
Ive also seen it. I was shocked. Another rider did some stupid noise and spooked a horse and the horse jumped to the side and trotted forward a couple of steps. The noisy rider apologised and said it was her fault and then the horse got 2 smacks with the whip for spooking. Same horse also got 2 smacks for walking forwards slowly while the reins were being pulled. Apparently the happy whipper is nervous after a bad fall so it makes it ok to treat her horse like that. I should’ve spoken out. ?
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Many years ago, I watched a documentary called "The Path of the Horse" about the filmaker's journey into an alternative horsemanship. I believe that she had a trainer in the American hunter/jumper scene, which is full of all sorts of unsavory practices. It started out with her interviewing people like Mark Rashid, who obviously espouses a kind, horse-centric philosophy but he's not against bridles, saddles, riding in general. She interviews a few more trainers, ending with Alexander Nevzorov, who advocates not riding, ever, and the filmmaker realises she can give her horses so much more happiness and agency by only doing unridden liberty work with them.
It made me think about the ethics of riding. Obviously not that hard, because I carried on riding. But I suppose all training will have coercive moments. However kind we try to be.
Yesterday, I started trailer training with Hermosa. Given complete freedom of choice, Hermosa would not go into a trailer or lorry, ever. But that isn't how the real world works. We weren't in a hurry nor were we actually going to drive anywhere, so I had all the time in the world and I wasn't cowboying her into the trailer. I did, however, exert steady pressure on the rope halter when she went into reverse gear. I also alternated lavish praise and treats with standing very quietly when she was on the ramp, or pawing the ramp, or making any vague attempt to say "yes." Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard. Eventually, she calmly walked into the trailer, then calmly walked out. It took about an hour and a half, but there was no escalation or trauma drama. On the other hand, I was very clear about what I wanted her to do, and I wasn't going to accept her initial "no" as an answer.
I suppose if she had been rearing or running backwards as soon as she saw the trailer, I would have shifted my expectations. Just putting a foot on the ramp. Standing calmly next to it. Whatever. But she was willing to walk to the edge of the ramp and sniff and paw it, so asking her to goin felt realistic.
Conversely, when Foinavon panicked about pigs on the side of the road, I realised that I would not -- in that moment -- succeed at making him go past them, so we turned around and took a different route.
There are slippery slopes on all sides. I guess we have to find our own knife edge ridge to walk between them and navigate the technical, tricky bits as well as we can.
On the other note, I have watched some very cringeworthy unaffiliated showjumping when our yard has held a competition. Kids smacking their ponies with a jumping bat before every fence, or hitting a pony for refusing when the pony was presented to a jump in the wrong place, that sort of mishegoss. I think it's a terrible thing to teach kids -- that whacking a pony simply to get it going is kosher.
It made me think about the ethics of riding. Obviously not that hard, because I carried on riding. But I suppose all training will have coercive moments. However kind we try to be.
Yesterday, I started trailer training with Hermosa. Given complete freedom of choice, Hermosa would not go into a trailer or lorry, ever. But that isn't how the real world works. We weren't in a hurry nor were we actually going to drive anywhere, so I had all the time in the world and I wasn't cowboying her into the trailer. I did, however, exert steady pressure on the rope halter when she went into reverse gear. I also alternated lavish praise and treats with standing very quietly when she was on the ramp, or pawing the ramp, or making any vague attempt to say "yes." Make the right thing easy and the wrong thing hard. Eventually, she calmly walked into the trailer, then calmly walked out. It took about an hour and a half, but there was no escalation or trauma drama. On the other hand, I was very clear about what I wanted her to do, and I wasn't going to accept her initial "no" as an answer.
I suppose if she had been rearing or running backwards as soon as she saw the trailer, I would have shifted my expectations. Just putting a foot on the ramp. Standing calmly next to it. Whatever. But she was willing to walk to the edge of the ramp and sniff and paw it, so asking her to goin felt realistic.
Conversely, when Foinavon panicked about pigs on the side of the road, I realised that I would not -- in that moment -- succeed at making him go past them, so we turned around and took a different route.
There are slippery slopes on all sides. I guess we have to find our own knife edge ridge to walk between them and navigate the technical, tricky bits as well as we can.
On the other note, I have watched some very cringeworthy unaffiliated showjumping when our yard has held a competition. Kids smacking their ponies with a jumping bat before every fence, or hitting a pony for refusing when the pony was presented to a jump in the wrong place, that sort of mishegoss. I think it's a terrible thing to teach kids -- that whacking a pony simply to get it going is kosher.
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blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
Also some horses really like people. I have 2 retired horses that live out at my mums farm — never come in except in the worst of weathers in the winter yet if i go into the field to go for a walk to the river (maybe 2 or 3 times a year) they come with me. They dont have to. They dont get fed. Its not habit. I dont call them or even notice them much til they arrive (massive field) They dont get anything except for a human scratching their ears and the dreaded pat but they walk with me all the way around the field and stop within a couple of meters of me to munch grass and wait for me while i ponder at the river for some time. Neither have them have been ridden for over 3 years (one much longer) both have had whips and spurs on them at times by me but they still want to be with me… go figure… must be stockholm syndrome or something.
I dont presume to know or understand why and what they get out of it but they wouldnt do it if they didnt want to…
I dont presume to know or understand why and what they get out of it but they wouldnt do it if they didnt want to…
Peglo
Well-Known Member
interestingly my wee Italian got scared when I patted her the first time. I felt terrible but after an ex racer who knew a big pat was a well done I never thought anything of it before Tali. I always give her a scratch now but I assume Patting isn’t a thing in Italy.
Tarragon
Well-Known Member
My thoughts:
1. I am not vegan and I have no qualms against keeping and riding ponies and horses
2. To keep and ride a pony, it needs to be trained
3. Training needs to be done with empathy, patience, persuasion and awareness and without force
4. A well trained pony is relaxed and happy in its work
5. All work should be tailored to suit the pony's temperament, health, ability and age, and will change over time
6. I disagree with blanket bans on whips and spurs - they are training aids when used appropriately and with skill
7. I think we need a ground change to the way young riders and novice riders are trained that will then impact their way of thinking for the rest of their lives
1. I am not vegan and I have no qualms against keeping and riding ponies and horses
2. To keep and ride a pony, it needs to be trained
3. Training needs to be done with empathy, patience, persuasion and awareness and without force
4. A well trained pony is relaxed and happy in its work
5. All work should be tailored to suit the pony's temperament, health, ability and age, and will change over time
6. I disagree with blanket bans on whips and spurs - they are training aids when used appropriately and with skill
7. I think we need a ground change to the way young riders and novice riders are trained that will then impact their way of thinking for the rest of their lives
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Not true.
I know just how whips and spurs should be used. I always carry a whip, although I rarely use it, and have in the past ridden in spurs.
The fact remains that in the wrong hands a rider can abuse a horse more severely if they are carrying a whip and spurs than if they are not carrying them.
The non riding public see spurs and whips as instruments of abuse, and in too many cases they are right.
It's all well and good blethering on about 'educated' riders and whatnot, but the fact is that too many horses are abused day in, day out, and often by 'professionals' who know better, but who cba to ride correctly.
Spurs should go now, their use is outdated. Whips used correctly and lightly as a reminder can be a safety feature, but their widespread misuse makes a ban on them too inevitable.
TPO
Well-Known Member
I don't understand this take.
How are spurs "outdated"? When used correctly they refine the aid so there is actually less pressure applied to a horse than a heel or leg, and that taking into account the smaller contact area.
I don't see how a whip used as a "safety feature" is any different than a spur used similarly. Assuming that the "safety feature" is to keep a horse straight to a fence, out of a ditch or to move in a certain direction with urgency in case of some sort of traffic issue why would a spur used to "motivate" or get a quick reaction be any different?
Speaking of good riders who know how to use equipment correctly I'd pick spurs over a whip. Even the best person in the world needs to move their hands to operate a whip/stick so the horse simultaneously receives a hand/bit/mouth signal and a tap/tickle with the stick. At the very least the spur enables ONE aid to be given without interfering with contact/hands.
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
Agree with a lot of this, but honestly, the worst abuse and misuse of equipment I see is from older, more 'experienced'/seasoned riders. I stopped having ridden lessons with an instructor at a riding school who told me to beat the horse I was riding simply because he was distracted by another horse in the school. It turns out these horses never had turn out, the horse I was riding just wanted to follow his mate. Said instructor was very well known/high up in the showing world. Stopped having lessons with another instructor who took whip off of me and hit my horse without my consent, simply because she didn't understand and do what was being asked of her. Both of these instructors were age 40 - 60.
How are young equestrians supposed to learn empathy, patience etc when being taught by people like this, who are meant to be role models?
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
That's horrible, poor horse. Sadly it is so normalised to whip as punishment, I see it on the daily.
catkin
Well-Known Member
Now I know native pony showing is far from ideal - however, one little detail in showing rules - no spurs allowed
palo1
Well-Known Member
That is really sad. I don't think I have been in the company of people who would use a whip as punishment for almost 20 years. Maybe I have been really lucky. I have been on good yards, bad yards and our own property but regularly riding and or competing with quite a wide range of other people. I have seen 3 instances of appalling abuse in that time and called out each one but only one of those involved a whip/spurs. One instance was a rider who strapped down a horse's head with a home-made and very tight standing martingale thingy made of baler twine (oh yes!) and then proceeded to boot and jab the horse still it was shaking on the spot. That was to 'make the horse listen'... Awful. One was at an endurance event where a well known and advanced rider whipped a horse that repeatedly reared. The whipping was considered and abusive. Help was offered with the rearing horse but refused and I reported the woman to the organisers. I was told that this was a regular feature for her but that doesn't mean nothing was done about it; I am not sure cos I didn't stick around at either that event or endurance at all much after that and a couple of other things. The third 'event' was a series of appalling mis-handlings of a weanling; the details of which I don't want to go into but eventually resulted in a dead horse. Help offered and abuse reported but no action taken. It was, in the end, the best outcome (that the horse died) as if it had not it would have had an even more prolonged dreadful time and probably would have injured or killed someone.
I have seen other distasteful horse handling and riding incidents but none where I felt certain that the horse actively suffered as a result of deliberate actions against a horse. Of course poor fitting saddles, lack of appropriate exercise, inappropriate feed, rugging, lack of dentistry, poor grazing, over-stabling etc etc etc are sadly far more common and constitute the greater part of horse misery imo.
In all three of those incidents above, the 'banning' of anything would have made no difference whatsoever - the abuse was the result of personal attitudes, ignorance and ego and those are the things that really need addressing.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
TPO, it's a sad fact that very few riders do use spurs correctly.
Once spurs are banned, and it's only a question of time, riders will have to learn to ride without them. Ditto whips, though while it would never occur to me to wear spurs out hacking, I would be loath to hack out without a whip in case the horse needed extra encouragement at a sticky spot, or was threatening to spook out into traffic.
This isn't really about correct, tactful and subtle use of the whip and spurs by the educated few, though, it's about razors (whips and spurs) in the hands of the great unwashed and how the public sees that.
Once spurs are banned, and it's only a question of time, riders will have to learn to ride without them. Ditto whips, though while it would never occur to me to wear spurs out hacking, I would be loath to hack out without a whip in case the horse needed extra encouragement at a sticky spot, or was threatening to spook out into traffic.
This isn't really about correct, tactful and subtle use of the whip and spurs by the educated few, though, it's about razors (whips and spurs) in the hands of the great unwashed and how the public sees that.
milliepops
Wears headscarf aggressively
I expect peoples POV on this is heavily swayed by the environment they are "doing horses" in.
I see people using spurs correctly day in, day out because the people who ride at my yard are for the most part serious amateurs or small time pros who take a lot of pride and make a lot of effort to be correct in their riding/training. Last very mixed yard i was on, there were few competition type riders and most did a bit of low level everything and probably didn't even own spurs.
I see people using spurs correctly day in, day out because the people who ride at my yard are for the most part serious amateurs or small time pros who take a lot of pride and make a lot of effort to be correct in their riding/training. Last very mixed yard i was on, there were few competition type riders and most did a bit of low level everything and probably didn't even own spurs.
stangs
Well-Known Member
I know I’m preaching to the choir, but I do think poor whip use and whip abuse is also partially reflective of not only anger management issues but a lack of critical thinking as well.
At its very simplest, without the trauma many horses will develop from whip use, a whip is a thin, straight thing: a stick. And, ethics aside, you can train a horse to think of a stick in any way you want: something to target, something to scratch again, something to fear, something to increase awareness of a certain body part, and so on.
People that use the stick as a punishment before or after a jump are unconsciously teaching the horse a stick is something to fear. They don’t actually want the horse to fear the stick, or else they wouldn’t throw hissy fits when the horse starts panicking if someone on the ground hands the rider a stick. They don’t think of what the stick does; they think of what they want achieved, i.e. a clear jump. Now, the critical approach to that would be questioning a) why their instructor says to use a stick in a certain situation, and b) why the stick is effective or not in that situation. The natural progression of that would be to understand, for example, that the stick is being used to make sure the shoulder doesn’t pop out as a tell-tale of a run out to come, or that it works because they’re using it to hurt. Then they’d contemplate the ethics of that, which would ideally dissuade them from overusing it, or using it so strongly or on the most sensitive areas of the horse. And, even more ideally, the rider would go on to wonder why the horse is running out to begin with, and then realise it’s an issue with their jumping position or the horse’s hocks etc, encouraging them to address the cause of the behaviour and not the action itself.
Of course, this is a grave oversimplification: you can’t expect kids to think critically when even adults are abysmal at it, and many people simply don’t care - they lose their temper, they abuse their horse, and, if the horse obeys, then the rider’s behaviour is reinforced in a brilliant act of irony.
But, theoretically, if riders thought critically about whips - and learnt how to cope with emotions, both theirs and the horses’ - they wouldn’t misuse them.
At its very simplest, without the trauma many horses will develop from whip use, a whip is a thin, straight thing: a stick. And, ethics aside, you can train a horse to think of a stick in any way you want: something to target, something to scratch again, something to fear, something to increase awareness of a certain body part, and so on.
People that use the stick as a punishment before or after a jump are unconsciously teaching the horse a stick is something to fear. They don’t actually want the horse to fear the stick, or else they wouldn’t throw hissy fits when the horse starts panicking if someone on the ground hands the rider a stick. They don’t think of what the stick does; they think of what they want achieved, i.e. a clear jump. Now, the critical approach to that would be questioning a) why their instructor says to use a stick in a certain situation, and b) why the stick is effective or not in that situation. The natural progression of that would be to understand, for example, that the stick is being used to make sure the shoulder doesn’t pop out as a tell-tale of a run out to come, or that it works because they’re using it to hurt. Then they’d contemplate the ethics of that, which would ideally dissuade them from overusing it, or using it so strongly or on the most sensitive areas of the horse. And, even more ideally, the rider would go on to wonder why the horse is running out to begin with, and then realise it’s an issue with their jumping position or the horse’s hocks etc, encouraging them to address the cause of the behaviour and not the action itself.
Of course, this is a grave oversimplification: you can’t expect kids to think critically when even adults are abysmal at it, and many people simply don’t care - they lose their temper, they abuse their horse, and, if the horse obeys, then the rider’s behaviour is reinforced in a brilliant act of irony.
But, theoretically, if riders thought critically about whips - and learnt how to cope with emotions, both theirs and the horses’ - they wouldn’t misuse them.
stangs
Well-Known Member
Are there any studies to support this? Mathematically, that’s counter-intuitive.
TPO
Well-Known Member
Nope just decades of practical experience and knowing how legs move and how to use spurs... Although I've said nope, who knows there might be ??
Even my basic maths means that I understand force and area but the spur is for refinement s less pressure not more (if used correctly).
However it is possible to use (correctly fitted spurs of an appropriate size/length) spurs as a "tickle" with a slight movement which is less than the effort required, and therefore felt by the horse) of moving the whole leg back to apply the aid. Hence they are supposed to used as a refinement not to make a horse forward or in place of correct training.
I still don't understand why a tap or "tickle" with a stick is OK, or using it for "safety", but doing less with spurs is such a no-no.
I have no problem with people who do have a stable lower leg/independent seat and hands using spurs as further refinement when at a suitable stage of training. I obviously don't condone missue of spurs in any way. I hate seeing people who grip up using them and I hate even watching the highest level elite eventers going xc with their spurs jabbing every stride.
The use of the whip befuddles me because as I said above you can't is one without moving you hands. So a rider is firing all sorts at the horse that they may not even be aware of when they move to use a stick, even a long schooling stick. I don't understand some of arguments for their use on this thread.
I couldn't even tell you the last time I used a stick excluding a lunging whip (obv didn't use that on the horse) and I've managed to stay straight over fences and hack safely.
I just got the BRC magazine through the door and there's a lot of "wobbly" riders jagging spurs in unintentionally and those pictures have been picked to feature in the magazine?!
As you can tell I don't really have a point, just going around in circles. When used correctly and for the right reasons most things can have their place. When used incorrectly and/or by people not experienecd or capable enough to use them correctly you get what many have described on here.
Welfare discussions are always worthwhile IMO but it does all feel a but pointless. Nothing discussed on here leaves the forum as such, ot doesn't implement change. I'd imagine thst the majority are on the same page but as is proven time ans time again on here just because someone writes something on here doesn't make it true or fact.
For all my spouting off I could be posting on my fb with a strapped shut, tied down horse with some nice pointy fixed spurs and my tack not fitting. I sure as Heck wouldn't be putting my hand up to it on a thread like this or thinking it applied to me. I'm pretty sure I'm a good rider and it couldn't possibly be me that fell into the grippy jabby whippy bracket type thing ?
You could replace spurs and whips with most things; draw reins, tie downs, flashes, drops, cranks, badly fitting tack, unfit horses, overweight riders...there is a lot of room for improvement when it comes to what we ask and expect of our horses
tristar
Well-Known Member
totally agree, spurs should go now
a schooling whip is a wonderful aid which used if needed can be used on different parts of horses body, and the horse has nothing to fear, it can be used humanely as a block, a touch, a tickle, the fact it is there can give the horse confidence in the authority of the rider in moments of need by just knowing it is there, as when hacking or riding on the road and holding in the quarters by resting the whip there as a block
brighteyes
Pooh-Bah
Regandal
Well-Known Member
Anyone ever given themselves a ‘light flick’ with a schooling whip?
My horse is terrified of whips, so I no longer carry one. Heartbreakingly so. We are now, through necessity, experts at shoulder in or out to get past scary/sticky stuff ?
My horse is terrified of whips, so I no longer carry one. Heartbreakingly so. We are now, through necessity, experts at shoulder in or out to get past scary/sticky stuff ?