Can we please do away with the term 'cubbing'?

[Jesstickle]

Oh dear, another attempt to sanitise hunting. Cubbing/autumn hunting is merely foreplay for the bloodthirsty.

No matter how much the hunt supporters shout, it will never be socially acceptable by the majority of Uk citizens, -both country and town dwellers.

I don't really care. Lots of people do lots of things I find unsavory and that is their perogative. Just as it is mine to hunt within the limits of the law. Whether the majority of people find it acceptable or not doesn't overly concern me I'll be brutally honest!

 

[MerrySherryRider]

I don't really care. Lots of people do lots of things I find unsavory and that is their perogative. Just as it is mine to hunt within the limits of the law. Whether the majority of people find it acceptable or not doesn't overly concern me I'll be brutally honest!

As is your right. And my right not to respect that.

 

[twiggy2]

Missed that!

Silly me. I've seen my lurcher kill things up close. It is bloody quick, can only assume the hounds are equally as fast!

for me it is not the killing it is the prolonged hunt and it is why i support the ban on hunting with a pack of hounds

my lurcher has caught many things in the past- many hares we were not out hunting but she was doing what comes naturally, every one of those has gone in the pot and raw left overs in the dogs as at least then they did not die for nothing

 

[Jesstickle]

As is your right. And my right not to respect that.

Absolutely Although the name calling isn't terribly becoming of you... I'm not particularly 'bloodthirsty' believe it or not and I certainly don't think of cubbing as foreplay. I try my hardest to only buy ethically reared meat for the table, I treat my own animals impeccably, I can't stand war and verge on the side of pacifism. I enjoy hunting and I find it a lot less cruel than the way a lot of intensively farmed meat is kept. I also find it less cruel than poison and the incorrect use of traps in controlling the fox population. I have weighed up both sides of the argument and made my decision. I am not sure why the antis feel the need to be rude about it really.

 

[happyhunter123]

Oh dear, another attempt to sanitise hunting. Cubbing/autumn hunting is merely foreplay for the bloodthirsty.

I don't think that people who go out hunting are especially bloodthirsty. I know I'm not.

 

[Leo Walker]

a lurcher will catch its quarry in a very short time frame

A GOOD lurcher will, but there are far too many people getting them now without much of a clue and hunting ILLEGALLY with them. I have lurchers but dont hunt foxes but i know an awful lot that do, and there are more bad than good at the minute

 

[Nancykitt]

i did say a good shot how anyone can be a bad shot on such a young fox and then not follow it to ground to end its suffering is beyond me

Have you ever tried shooting a fox - or anything else, for that matter? It's really not that easy.
Foxes do get wounded and they can run off and 'disappear' - following them is often just not possible.
If you apply for a firearms license specifically for fox control you're likely to be given permission only for a small bore rifle...shooting to bring about instant death takes some considerable skill, believe me.

I do know people who've shot foxes with a shotgun and killed them, but they were very close to the animal. Anyone attempting this at too great a distance is likely to wound rather than kill.

People often come up with this argument about shooting foxes being the kindest method of control but there's more to it than this.

 

[AengusOg]

Back in the day, when Horse & Hound was full of hunting reports and hunt-related articles, cub-hunting was about entering young hounds, dispersing young foxes, and preparing horses for the season ahead.

What would be the point of 'slaughtering' young foxes before the season even began?

 

[Nancykitt]

Interesting, because that was always my understanding of cub-hunting, more about 'dispersal' than slaughter. I have no direct experience of any form of 'live' cubbing but perhaps the activity varied from hunt to hunt?

 

[AdorableAlice]

. I have no direct experience of any form of 'live' cubbing but perhaps the activity varied from hunt to hunt?

Not at all. AengusOg, is totally correct. All hunts enter young hounds during cub hunting, occasionally you will see a young hound coupled to an experienced hound if the younger hound is a little giddy.

Cub hunting provides the farmer/land owner with a service, by dispersing young foxes, young hounds with education, hunt staff with the opportunity of getting to know any new horses that may have come into kennels and gets the hunt horses fitter.

 

[Goldenstar]

Back in the day, when Horse & Hound was full of hunting reports and hunt-related articles, cub-hunting was about entering young hounds, dispersing young foxes, and preparing horses for the season ahead.

What would be the point of 'slaughtering' young foxes before the season even began?

That's my memory of it too.

 

[Nancykitt]

So the thing about surrounding the wood and sending hounds in to slaughter cubs is not the case - anywhere?

Just interested, really.

I have to say that I am always at the back and have never jumped a hedge in my life (I'm too much of a wimp), but I have seen hounds pick up on live quarry - both fox and hare - and the huntsman has had to call them off.

 

[cptrayes]

It was routine with the Berkeley in the 1980s and early 90s.

I did it at the invitation of friends of mine who wore hunt buttons and they told me that it was normal.

It may perhaps depend on how large an area the hunt has to disperse hounds within. At the time, it's my understanding that the Berkeley did not have a lot of ground to hunt.

 

[happyhunter123]

So the thing about surrounding the wood and sending hounds in to slaughter cubs is not the case - anywhere?

Yes it was the case in some of the country-not all of it however. Down here, we never held up coverts. Hunting just proceeded like a normal day in the main season, though we'd cover much less ground. We would try and hunt younger foxes only, but frequently found adult foxes and hunted them too.

Having said that, in the area in which it did take place, it does not mean that hunting would solely consist of holding up. Can't say I have much experience of it though.

 

[AengusOg]

So the thing about surrounding the wood and sending hounds in to slaughter cubs is not the case - anywhere?

The purpose of cub-hunting was not to slaughter cubs. Hunting was about sport, providing a pest control service, and conservation. If cubs were slaughtered, there would be little to hunt for the remainder of the season. There is no doubt that a few cubs would be caught during such early outings, but the purpose was never to wipe litters of cubs out.

Young hounds learned to hunt, and to be controlled by huntsman and whippers-in, and fox cubs would disperse which is what they would do anyway. Dispersal of young stock from parental territories is a natural phenomenon, and prevents close breeding between related animals.

I have seen hounds pick up on live quarry - both fox and hare - and the huntsman has had to call them off.

Hounds have been selectively bred for hundreds of years to hunt. Hunt staff selected their breeding stock from those hounds with the best conformation, scenting ability, and temperament for the job of hunting their quarry, and a change in the law means nothing to a well-bred hound.

It may be that hounds will be selectively bred in the future to hunt a smelly rag only, and take no interest in live quarry. Many excellent breeds of canine have been ruined by idiotic breeding...the same could be achieved with hounds, although I doubt that hound breeders would be so destructively inclined.

 

[Nancykitt]

Thank you, AengusOg, I have no experience of live hunting but that was my understanding of 'cub hunting'.
Incidentally, every time I, personally, have seen hounds pick up on a live animal, they have been successfully called off.

 

[NellRosk]

I've been 'cubbing' this season with my hunt and the only way I could describe it is as a big posh hack around countryside I'd never normally be allowed to ride on. Excellent chance to jump a few things and get the young hounds out. We didn't see any foxes, never mind slaughtered any cubs!

 

[turkana]

I only go cubbing/autumn hunting or whatever you want to call it as it's cheap (I can't afford proper hunting) & like NellRosk, for me it's a good way to have a nice hack round over land I wouldn't normally have access to. I've never seen any foxes either!

 

[Ditchjumper2]

The purpose of cub-hunting was not to slaughter cubs. Hunting was about sport, providing a pest control service, and conservation. If cubs were slaughtered, there would be little to hunt for the remainder of the season. There is no doubt that a few cubs would be caught during such early outings, but the purpose was never to wipe litters of cubs out.

Young hounds learned to hunt, and to be controlled by huntsman and whippers-in, and fox cubs would disperse which is what they would do anyway. Dispersal of young stock from parental territories is a natural phenomenon, and prevents close breeding between related animals.



Hounds have been selectively bred for hundreds of years to hunt. Hunt staff selected their breeding stock from those hounds with the best conformation, scenting ability, and temperament for the job of hunting their quarry, and a change in the law means nothing to a well-bred hound.

It may be that hounds will be selectively bred in the future to hunt a smelly rag only, and take no interest in live quarry. Many excellent breeds of canine have been ruined by idiotic breeding...the same could be achieved with hounds, although I doubt that hound breeders would be so destructively inclined.

Agree with this...way back when one used to hunt the cobs for cubbing therefore saving the quality hunters for the season proper. And please don't say I am a cob knocker......I am not that is just how it used to be.

We use earlies (we are harrier pack and "leveretting" just does not work as a title !!) to enter young hounds, school new hunters, and get the show all ship shape ready for the season ahead. New Masters and hunt staff get acquainted with our ways.

Those of us who hunt, know what is what....those who don't are entitled to their own opinion.

 

[AengusOg]

Those of us who hunt, know what is what....those who don't are entitled to their own opinion.

I don't hunt, and probably never will, but that doesn't stop me educating myself on matters hunting. I wanted to get into hunting employment when in my late teens and, after making some enquiries, was offered a job as kennel-huntsman with a well-known Scottish hunt. Unfortunately, I failed my driving test and had to pass the opportunity up. I never got another chance.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

I don't hunt, and probably never will, but that doesn't stop me educating myself on matters hunting. I wanted to get into hunting employment when in my late teens and, after making some enquiries, was offered a job as kennel-huntsman with a well-known Scottish hunt. Unfortunately, I failed my driving test and had to pass the opportunity up. I never got another chance.

Sorry I did not mean that those that don't know are not entitled to!

 

[AengusOg]

Sorry I did not mean that those that don't know are not entitled to!

No no, I'm just saying that it's easy to have an interest and to learn about hunting without actually taking part. As you know, there is more to it than killing foxes.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

No no, I'm just saying that it's easy to have an interest and to learn about hunting without actually taking part. As you know, there is more to it than killing foxes.

Very true...but you will not get a true picture on a forum and that is the truth.

 

[kentridingclubber]

Those of us who hunt, know what is what....those who don't are entitled to their own opinion.

Quite.

Having followed yesterday I must have missed the murderous part. Infact I was accosted by a member of the general public, who decided to inform me that "Hunting with hounds is illegal".

Much to absolute giddy amusement a fox then preceded to leg it past all hounds and riders top speed and not one hound even stood a paw out of place.

Good time had by all, expect Mr Fox of course who was out of breath but lives another day (No doubt to be shot very soon, unless he is very Wiley of course).

 

[AengusOg]

I'm a bit sad. I have a huge amount of literature on hunting, from old H&H editions to books (old and modern), and lots of stuff downloaded off the net.

I also collect prints and hunting-related items, too.

 

[FairyLights]

please explain the difference to me. I put down rat poison in my barn and also go ratting with my JRT. If I didnt kill the rats we would be over run. Most seem to approve of this. Likewise foxes need their numbers reducing or we'd be over run with mangey foxes biting people [see media press cutting, foxes biting babies and so on].So whats wrong with finding and killing them? They too are vermin. There is a purpose , a result and a social good. So why do the same people who approve of rat control, condem fox control?

 

[kentridingclubber]

please explain the difference to me. I put down rat poison in my barn and also go ratting with my JRT. If I didnt kill the rats we would be over run. Most seem to approve of this. Likewise foxes need their numbers reducing or we'd be over run with mangey foxes biting people [see media press cutting, foxes biting babies and so on].So whats wrong with finding and killing them? They too are vermin. There is a purpose , a result and a social good. So why do the same people who approve of rat control, condem fox control?

Or think its ok to shoot them which is less likely to kill them instantly.

 

[cptrayes]

Or think its ok to shoot them which is less likely to kill them instantly.

This argument only succeeds if you ignore the repeated chases before a Fox is killed.

Around me, they have been successfully shot when required for twenty years or more. I ride all over the area and I have never seen a mangy or a half shot Fox.

There are marksmen who have posted on this board before who are utterly sick of the fact that their help was wanted while the ban was actively being fought, only for people to turn round since and say that they leave foxes to die in agony.

 

[Clodagh]

As someone of 40+ who hunted for 25 seasons, I would say cubbing from pre hunting ban to now has been a fairly seamless change. I love the pro hunt 'only we know about the countryside' people on here! The hunt still meet at ours but I no longer follow, I am so on the fence about it. Cubbing is teaching the hounds to kill, no one cares if the foxes are dispersed or not. If you wanted to disperse them you wouldn't sit round the covert tapping your whip and making a noise - albeit that is only done on private out the way woods now.
We now shoot our foxes, 20 so far this year, all dead before they hit the ground. I have seen one fox that had been shot and injured and that was by an airgun, which is as illegal as straightforward hunting with hounds.

 

[Nancykitt]

I have seen one fox that had been shot and injured and that was by an airgun, which is as illegal as straightforward hunting with hounds.

Really? Although it is certainly not advisable to shoot a fox with an air rifle I have never seen or heard anything to say that it is illegal? Infact, looking at a recent 'Fieldsports Britain' video there is a very powerful large caliber air rifle (FAC) that seems to be marketed for that purpose. It is a controversial weapon and, in my view, not something that I would want to use on a fox - but it is certainly not illegal, and the testers confirmed that it would deliver a shot comparable to a .22 rimfire rifle. Even though it is an air rifle, it is my understanding that a firearms license is required.

I am just concerned that some people are under the impression that shooting foxes is 'easy' and always results in a quick death. In my experience, this is definitely not the case.