Can we please do away with the term 'cubbing'?

[Clodagh]

Really? Although it is certainly not advisable to shoot a fox with an air rifle I have never seen or heard anything to say that it is illegal? Infact, looking at a recent 'Fieldsports Britain' video there is a very powerful large caliber air rifle (FAC) that seems to be marketed for that purpose. It is a controversial weapon and, in my view, not something that I would want to use on a fox - but it is certainly not illegal, and the testers confirmed that it would deliver a shot comparable to a .22 rimfire rifle. Even though it is an air rifle, it is my understanding that a firearms license is required.

I am just concerned that some people are under the impression that shooting foxes is 'easy' and always results in a quick death. In my experience, this is definitely not the case.

Sorry, I thought it was illegal, I don't know anyone that would use or advise as suitable an airgun for a fox.
It is much easier and more efficient to shoot them than to hunt them.

 

[paddocktractor]

The sick ,old and often suffering from been clipped by cars were mainly the foxes that were killed before the ban .
People hunt because they enjoy been out in country that they wouldn't normally have access to and with a group of other people on horses
If they only did it out of blood thirst then why is it still popular after the ban.
These so called cruel people are trying to keep and create a habitat and surrounding that wildlife can live in and makes good country to hunt over.

 

[JulesRules]

As I plan to take my horse cubbing to try to liven her up, I have been doing lots of reading on the pro hunt/anti hunt argument as I'm still not sure where I sit. One argument for hunting as opposed to shooting is that hunting promotes Survival of the fittest whereas shooting is indiscriminate.

Once I have been cubbing maybe I will be able to report back what actually happens.

 

[Shysmum]

"Cubbing" is used regularly by terrier men to train their young dogs. BEHIND the scenes. i have seen videos of this (and the sexual excitement it caused for a few really nasty blokes) ....the suffering of both the cubs and the terriers was dreadful. And yes, they were investigated.

This was in Surrey.

Perhaps, whilst sitting on your horses, you are not aware of what work is being carried out by the terrier men - IMHO, the really nasty, truly evil side of hunting. All hushed up.

 

[marianne1981]

The thing I struggle to understand though, is that if it really is survival of the fittest, how is that so when even if the fox has given a good chase, but gone to ground, he is still dug out by terrier men? That is not fair. It wouldnt be as bad if the fox had at least a sporting chance, but when they are ultimately going to die even if they go to ground and got away that is not right.

 

[Shysmum]

It is the terrier men who have a LOT to answer for. One guy comes into our local with his terrier, and it's face is mashed to pieces.. I sooooooooooo want to say something serious to his face, but it isn't my job any more.

 

[marianne1981]

I totally agree Shysmum and we posted at the exact same time with the same subject. It must be thrilling to go hunting and I would love to try drag hunting/bloodhounds but I bet all the people sitting on their horses fox hunting having a nice day conveniently forget the reality of the darker side of hunting. I am very interested in hunting but totally against it, it is very interesting particularly the older books, as they didnt have anything to hide then and so wrote it as it is....

"Never lose sight of the fact that one really well-beaten cub killed fair and square is worth half a dozen fresh ones killed the moment they are found without hounds having to set themselves to the task. It is essential that hounds should have their blood up and learn to be savage with their fox before he is killed."
Cubbing as described in an extract from Fox hunting by the late Duke of Beaufort, Master of Fox Hounds, published by David & Charles, 1980.

 

[Shysmum]

Out of sight, out of mind. very convenient, eh ? I suspect that many of these hunters have no idea how it all really works. All such a jolly day, eh ?

A captured animal is protected under UK law, and the foxes/cubs that are trapped are being held captive. That includes foxes trapped and released just for the enjoyment of the hunt. And yes they ARE folks. And so are badgers for that matter.

I cannot understand why so many people think that hunting is within the law, just because they do not see what goes on out of eye shot.

It is terribly cruel, terrible painful for the trapped fox and terrier, and totally illegal. But hey, what the hell, it's damn good fun.

 

[Tiffany]

Killing wth hounds is not what I would call natural

 

[Countryman]

There seems to be a lot of rubbish being posted on this thread, particularly about terrierwork, by people who have never one hunting and resort to sound bites from Saboteur websites. Badgers being released for hounds to hunt?! How ridiculous!

Remember, properly conducted, pre-ban fox hunting was a combination of three things; Sport, Wildlife Management, and Pest Control.

Sport-the mounted field crossing country at pace, a pack of hounds working together to puzzle out a line and follow it.

Wildlife management -culling old sick weak, diseased and injured foxes, allowing the strong to survive and improving the health of the local fox population.

Pest Control - Primarily done via Terrierwork. Problem foxes if put to ground can be dug out to be shot at the landowners request.



Terrierwork if done properly can be an effective and humane method of pest control. It is a method used by farmers and keepers -and anyone with permission and a terrier across the countryside. When used by the Hunt, it is not in a sporting role, it is for pest control pure and simple.

A Hunt Terrierman was a humane expert, who had to be fully trained, registered with the MFHA and licensed by the Home Office.
If pre-ban hounds marked a fox to ground, it would be dug if the landowner or keeper insisted on it. Remember hunts aimed for a balanced, healthy fox population. Digging a fox pre ban was fairly quick and humane. The terrier used had to be 'soft' -it was not allowed to attack the fox just to bark at it. Any terrier that attacked or tried to fight a fox could not be used in digging again. Anyway, the terrier would bark at the fox and confront it- a not unnatural emotion for the fox similar to his vying for territory with other foxes. This kept the fox in one place until it had been dug down to when it was shot. A Quick, well regulated and humane pest control service for farmers.

 

[Shysmum]

It is very interesting how many people think that killing one canine species with another is not actually natural.

 

[Tiffany]

The sick ,old and often suffering from been clipped by cars were mainly the foxes that were killed before the ban .
People hunt because they enjoy been out in country that they wouldn't normally have access to and with a group of other people on horses
If they only did it out of blood thirst then why is it still popular after the ban.
These so called cruel people are trying to keep and create a habitat and surrounding that wildlife can live in and makes good country to hunt over.

Could it be that people who are blood thirsty don't mind if it's illegal or not. There are some who enjoy things more when they know they shouldn't be doing it.

 

[Shysmum]

good point. Could it partly be about all the dressing up and "having the right clothing, and horse turnout" that I've seen. Oh yes, so posh to go out and do what is done. URGH.

I can not get my head round someone loving a horse, and their dogs - and then justifying hunting.

Not forgetting that the whole thing is ILLEGAL.

 

[Countryman]

Another major misconception people seem to have about Autumn Hunting - perhaps perpetuated by those wo know it's not true but wish to discredit hunting - is that it is about "training hounds to kill by wiping out all the cubs in a wood". This was never what it was about.

Pre Ban, It was primarily to train the young hounds NOT how to kill -all dogs instinctively know how to kill their prey because it is natural - It was to train them to hunt using their noses. This is why it took place in the cool coverts where there was some scent. It was also to disperse the "cubs" - bear in mind a "cub" is a fully grown fox in September, and provided an element of pest control in areas with perhaps too many foxes, killing a few weak ones.

 

[Fiagai]

It is very interesting how many people think that killing one canine species with another is not actually natural.

Shysmum - a bit of a bee in the bonnet there by the looks of it ....

Firstly the hunting act allows exemptions - this may not be traditional cub hunting but young and older foxes are now legally shot
Probably not natural either but they you are.

Secondly humans using hawks etc to kill pigeons would be also unnatural by your definition. But guess what - this does happen in the wild already and is 'natural'

Predation does not normally commit to non specific animal species - there are plenty of examples of this in nature

Foxes are opportunists and will prey upon just about anything - they rarely discriminate. See for example http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/a...head-urban-fox-bitten-Surely-wouldnt-die.html

There are plenty of other examples of foxes and this type of behaviour

As fox hunting is now restricted we have mainly shooting to control fox populations.

Whilst there are excellent & skilled individuals who can and do shoot properly - however too often the quality of marksmanship leaves foxes shot and wounded to die a lingering death - this did not happen with hounds.

Foxes hunt and there is nothing wrong with that in my opinion.

 

[Clodagh]

I am not totally against hunting although I wouldn't go any more but...
foxes were/are/whatever killed on days when the scent is good. A screaming scent and the right weather conditions means any fox no matter how fit or healthy is more likely to die. An old mangey one could get away on a day when the scent is poor.
Foxes are chopped if they don't hop up and run quick enough, their health is irrelevant.
Heavily pregnant vixens are slow and easy prey.
I agree that hunting is better for the whole population - we have as near to zero foxes on our land now that we lamp them, when we were rabid hunting fans they were all allowed to live so the hunt was guaranteed a find when they came here.
If cubbing was to disperse foxes why is the covert surrounded? Surely to make it easier for the hounds?

 

[Countryman]

I am not totally against hunting although I wouldn't go any more but...
foxes were/are/whatever killed on days when the scent is good. A screaming scent and the right weather conditions means any fox no matter how fit or healthy is more likely to die. An old mangey one could get away on a day when the scent is poor.
Foxes are chopped if they don't hop up and run quick enough, their health is irrelevant.
Heavily pregnant vixens are slow and easy prey.
I agree that hunting is better for the whole population - we have as near to zero foxes on our land now that we lamp them, when we were rabid hunting fans they were all allowed to live so the hunt was guaranteed a find when they came here.
If cubbing was to disperse foxes why is the covert surrounded? Surely to make it easier for the hounds?

Clodagh, it is true that a good scent will help the hounds-but it does not automatically follow that any healthy fox would be killed! Many healthy foxes got away even on days with a screaming scent. Likewise on bad scenting days, it is likely that an injured fox would still be caught by the hounds - though as you say it gets less likely. However, hunting is not a precise science so these things happen-but it is a pretty good way to manage a fox population.

As for chopping foxes, its wrong to think they are chopped just because they don't run. Any fox will run to keep away from the unknown that is a human rambler, or dog walker, so they certainly do when a pack of hounds enters their covert. Some foxes are chopped-why have they not run? Almost always because they are too sick to move, too injured to move quickly, blind, deaf or unable to smell. In these cases, the hunt is doing these foxes a service and euthanising them from the miserable life of starvation they will be suffering from. That is what happens when a fox gets old. Its body wears out-it may go blind, or its teeth may fall out-and it slowly starves to death. A quick chop is infinitely preferable.

Your point about heavily pregnant vixens making slow and easy prey is entirely wrong. Remember, hounds hunt by scent. By a quirk of nature, heavily pregnant vixens give off no scent; even on a day with perfect scenting conditions, a great pack of hounds would be hard pressed to hunt a pregnant vixen more than a few yards.

The point you make is true about hunting being better for the fox population - many hunting farmers will not shoot their foxes, but will allow the hunt to manage them so that there is a sustainable population.

You seem sceptical that cubbing is to disperse foxes. It is the primary aim, along with training the hounds to hunt (not to kill) and with pest control in areas with too many foxes or where the landowner demands it.

These 'cubs' - I use the term in inverted commas because they are fully grown - remain in the same area-a couple of hedgrerows and a wood for instance, where they were born. This is not good for them, as they fight among themselves and depopulate that area of prey, while allowing other areas with no foxes to have their prey species grow unchecked. It is better for all if the fox population is spread out and not concentrated. Farmers also prefer this-many keepers can tolerate the odd fox on their land, but would exterminate all of them if they found there were 5 in their best wood.

You will be aware most covers were not surrounded, though some were. This is because, due to the heat in September, scent is often non existant outside of the covert. Keeping the foxes inside didn't really make the job easier for the hounds, it just let them hunt at all! As time went on, by October most foxes were allowed to cross country -though hounds have no hope of catching them in October due to the (relative) bad scent, it was good training for the hounds to puzzle out a line across country. People seem to think that a fox would necessarily be killed in the wood if it was surrounded. Not true at all. Once the hounds had had a good run around in it they would often be taken out. If there were too many foxes in the area, hounds *might* be allowed to kill one. It was all part of dispersing foxes, and managing an area's fox population.

 

[happyhunter123]

On the subject of hunting being 'natural', here is an interesting video of some wolves chasing and killing a coyote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXCvLzDNWz0

 

[Shysmum]

At the end of the day, hunts will carry on whatever. They are that arrogant. Foxes will be killed by hounds. That is why people get all dressed up - for the kill. The "given right" will continue. Terrier men will continue to torture foxes and cubs. The law will be ignored.

But I will not turn a blind eye to the law. I simply care too much, and think hunting is outdated and a very nasty lifestyle. AND ILLEGAL.

Hmmm - thinking it may be time for Shy and I to retire to a new forum. We are not really into hunting are we

 

[Countryman]

They are that arrogant. Foxes will be killed by hounds.
That is why people get all dressed up - for the kill. The "given right" will continue.

But I will not turn a blind eye to the law.
I simply care too much, and think hunting is outdated and a very nasty lifestyle. AND ILLEGAL

Unfortunately this post epitomises the typical uninformed, self-righteous anti-hunt mindset. Firstly their dislike of hunting is first expressed in that hunts are "arrogant" and think they have a "given right". Then comes the ridiculous assertion that people "dress up" for the kill! Now that truly is an absurd statement and nullifies any points previously made by the poster. It makes me wonder whether they know anybody who knows anybody who has ever been hunting! It is such a false statement.

Lastly the poster gives away perhaps her primary reason for her opposition to hunting - that it is an outdated and nasty way of life. She seems to think that that is a reason to ban it.

 

[marianne1981]

Another subject entirely, and I may be wrong, but does anyone recall the Isle of Wight originally had no foxes on it and they were actually brought over in order to hunt them? Also, Countryman, I realise what you are saying sounds kind of humane re the terrier work, but do you really think that everyone does it by the book? I doubt it really happens like that unfortunately. If a fox has given a good chase and gone to ground, he should win and be given a sporting chance. All the people who say that it is only the weak ones that get killed, how does that apply when a healthy fox has gone to ground and is going to die anyway? What I cannot understand is (despite trying to over the years) is how you can justify anything- why are hounds bred for stamina and not speed? Surely it would be more humane if you were hunting an animal, for it to be a quick chase and not a prolonged one? But then, I suppose that would ruin the fields thrilling long chase which is what you probably enjoy most (the equestrian people anyway).

 

[A1fie]

Another subject entirely, and I may be wrong, but does anyone recall the Isle of Wight originally had no foxes on it and they were actually brought over in order to hunt them? Also, Countryman, I realise what you are saying sounds kind of humane re the terrier work, but do you really think that everyone does it by the book? I doubt it really happens like that unfortunately. If a fox has given a good chase and gone to ground, he should win and be given a sporting chance. All the people who say that it is only the weak ones that get killed, how does that apply when a healthy fox has gone to ground and is going to die anyway? What I cannot understand is (despite trying to over the years) is how you can justify anything- why are hounds bred for stamina and not speed? Surely it would be more humane if you were hunting an animal, for it to be a quick chase and not a prolonged one? But then, I suppose that would ruin the fields thrilling long chase which is what you probably enjoy most (the equestrian people anyway).

The thing is Marianne - a hunted fox that had gone to ground still needed to be dispatched as that would have been the purpose of hunting it, not for the 'sport'.

Hounds are bred for stamina as they needed to be fit enough to be out for hours. Before the ban hounds were unlikely to have been hunting a fox for hours but they would have been constantly on the move and they needed to be fit.

I have to say that I like the way that you try to understand the arguments for hunting, even if you don't agree with them.. Questioning things is good and although you might not ever agree with hunting, at least you are considering all sides without resorting to personal abuse

 

[Doug]

As most hunts are treating the ban as temporary, maybe they don't want to change what they call the activities to avoid confusion for when (if) the act gets repealed.

 

[BWa]

Our pest control man uses a terrier to flush foxes, he shoots them but he doesnt put out snares. All those are legal and nothing to do with the local hunt, we do it protect our lambs and game birds. That's the issue though isn't. It is perfectly legal to snare a fox and only check that snare once every 24 hours, but people only consider pre ban hunting to be cruel. Open your eyes folks, the ban did nothing to protect foxes

 

[cptrayes]

Our pest control man uses a terrier to flush foxes, he shoots them but he doesnt put out snares. All those are legal and nothing to do with the local hunt, we do it protect our lambs and game birds. That's the issue though isn't. It is perfectly legal to snare a fox and only check that snare once every 24 hours, but people only consider pre ban hunting to be cruel. Open your eyes folks, the ban did nothing to protect foxes

Why do you assume that I and others approve of snares? It is possible to believe that something which is legal is wrong, just as I did with Fox hunting pre ban. I think snares are foul.

Why do you also assume that all those who are against hunting with hounds disapprove of killing pest foxes? It's clear that most of us don't, we just don't like the way you choose to do it.

 

[BWa]

You have taken my post the wrong way Cptrayes, I am completely against the ban, I don't like snares. I am a paid up member of my local hunt supporters club and if I had a sane horse when he hears the hounds and a better pair of brave pants I would be out with the field, not just on foot.
However my point was to the folks saying how cruel autumn hunting is. The ban was never about the fox but about the lifestyle choices of the hunting folk IMO.
Didn't mean to offend you.

 

[marianne1981]

Thank you A1fie, it is nice of you to say that. I am not on here to be abusive, it is not my thing, but it is interesting to hear all the different opinions. CpTrayes I have always thought how well constructed your posts are and it's interesting that you have actually hunted and changed your mind. Was there a turning point or a certain thing that triggered you to stop? Since I was a little girl I have found foxhunting both awful but fascinating and I am drawn to learning about it. I will certainly never be pro hunting but I would love to go out with bloodhounds one day, it must be so much fun.

But I often find holes in things pro's say... e.g many a time people on here have argued that it's only the weaker, older foxes that you almost "weed out", but then you have just said, it doesnt matter if the fox is a fit and healthy one or not, it will still be killed. There are so many contradictions in hunting.

 

[dogatemysalad]

Hmmm - thinking it may be time for Shy and I to retire to a new forum. We are not really into hunting are we

Don't do that. Hunting is only a very small part of the forum and an activity supported by a minority. They aren't representative of the several million horse riders in the UK.

 

[Nancykitt]

At the end of the day, hunts will carry on whatever. They are that arrogant. Foxes will be killed by hounds. That is why people get all dressed up - for the kill.

This is one of the daftest things I've ever read on the hunting forum! Presumably the poster is against 'dressing up' for shows, dressage etc too? And are those activities OK because they are not 'posh'?

I have never been 'live' hunting in my life as I only started hunting post-ban. I currently hunt with a bloodhound pack - and hunting with bloodhounds has never involved a kill. I still get 'dressed up' and make sure my pony is clean and smart. Absolutely nothing to do with getting dressed up 'for the kill'!

And as for 'posh' - I'd suggest that anyone who thinks this has never been out hunting, you really do get people from all walks of life. I do not think of myself as posh, I was born and lived for 18 years on a rough council estate. Not exactly the landed gentry!

 

[Copperpot]

I believe you can still use a terrier to dig to a fox as long as the terrier "bays" and the fox is shot when it is reached. As for the terriers not wanting to do it, tell that to my 4 month old fell terrier who I cannot keep out of holes! If you have the landowners permission I am pretty sure terrier work properly carried out is not illegal, for instance in the protection of game birds on a shoot.