can welsh ponies be dun?

Cmpips said:
Hi everyone just to add to the thread there are definitely true duns in Welsh breeds there is a Colour Genetics in Welsh ponies and cob FB group where there are lots of photos. Bryncerdin Merlyn is the black dun Sec C stallion people have posted about, his dam is a red dun and her dam was and her dam going back to a Sec A mare. All duns originate in sec A but there are Sec B,C and D however very very few of them. I own 8 duns including a red dun stallion. In 1983 when I was much younger lol I took these photographs of this gorgeous stallion Maescwm Trumpeter red dun, the gene has been around since the beginning of the stud and is ancient, bay dun is the original colour of all horses so it would be nice to preserve it in the Welsh breeds.
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I used to ride a Sec C chestnut with a dorsal stripe back in the 90s. Seems to me that dun can appear on many base colours, my current bay has a dorsal stripe and leg barring and she's not the first bay I've had like this.
 
marmalade76 said:
If the dorsal stripe is what makes a dun a dun, why shouldn't it apply to other base colours?
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Cos it’s a ‘D’ dun gene that makes a dun a dun, not a dorsal stripe
Dun is a modifier that can effect any base colour and occur with lots of other coat modifiers too.
I literally said it can occur on any base colour!

There are 3 genetic options that occur at the dun locus in the genome, they are :


Dun (D) = coat dilution (often ‘peachy’) true dorsal running through tail, leg bars, ear bars, face mask

Nd1 ergo not dun 1= primitive markings with no coat dilution

Nd2 = bog standard no dilution, no primitive markings

That’s as basic as I can make it, there’s some other bits too.
 
millikins said:
An example of how the dorsal stripe on a true dun continues into the tail. View attachment 168252
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that is not true the dorsal does not have to continue into the tail on my bay and black duns it only goes to the dock with very little frosting at all. I think it differs between breeds but also bloodlines. My one bloodline has much better dun factor than my other one but they are all tested
 
Cmpips said:
Yes mine are tested for dun and it is the same Gene in M Trumpeter and B Merlyn ( also tested) dun can be any base colour
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Yes I know, was just curious as you said you have 8 Duns - what I was really wondering I suppose was whether you had specifically gone looking for dun welshies and whether you had tested before purchase or whether you were a specialist dun breeder?
 
Gloi said:
View attachment 168211
My bay dun filly showing how the dun shows in the darkened ear tips and eyebrows, differing from the buckskin shading.
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ear tips are because of being a bay base all bay bases have dark ear tips Barring on the back of the ears is a sign of dun and also a facial mask is a sign of dun and cobwebbing without seeing a better photo this does not look dun
 
Also, why does the phrase "can be on any base colour" keep getting mentioned on this topic? Is it a common misconception or something?
 
DabDab said:
Also, why does the phrase "can be on any base colour" keep getting mentioned on this topic? Is it a common misconception or something?
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yes because a buckskin is only bay plus cream so the only dun it resembles is a bay dun hence the confusion however dun can be on any base not just bay
 
DabDab said:
Yes I know, was just curious as you said you have 8 Duns - what I was really wondering I suppose was whether you had specifically gone looking for dun welshies and whether you had tested before purchase or whether you were a specialist dun breeder?
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I had a very nasty car accident got interested in colour genetics while I recovered. I believed I had seen true dun welshies went on to prove it and did a lot of research on bloodlines then randomly saw one at my local sale. When tracing the duns I found one not far away from me and was offered buy her. I was tracked down by an elderly breeder who had been breeding duns and she was retiring and asked me if I would like her remaining two. Since then I have lost a couple and bred a couple but it is not easy to breed a dun it is only 50% chance and we have so few numbers to begin with it is hard to believe we can preserve the gene. Differentiating between buckskins and bay duns would help to identify the true duns and perhaps save the gene.
 
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M. Trumpeter is chestnut according to this, with no duns mentioned in his breeding. Why do you consider him dun rather than Nd 1?
 
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