Can you turn a hot horse into a calm one?

[daffy44]

I agree, standing while you get on, being able to stand while you stop to chat, or do something useful is an essential life skill, but that doesnt mean that every horse has this skill. Its relatively easy to teach a horse to relax when you drop the reins, a lot of horses teach themselves this one, but it doesnt mean that they retain the relaxation once you pick up the contact and your body language says lets go.

I think it comes down to experience and judgement as to when to let the horse look, and when to keep it occupied. For example one of my horses is a very easy, very trainable horse, not spooky at all, but when he first started going to shows he was very excited by it, he was well behaved to travel, get on etc (I was always alone with him and had no issues at all) but the instant his feet hit the warm up he felt like he wanted to explode, and I'm 99.9% sure if I'd insisted on walk or halt at that stage it would have resulted in me eating surface. I used to straight way go into a rising trot on a contact just for five minutes, circles, changes of rein, nothing difficult, but always telling him I was in charge and he had a job to do, after approx 5 mins of this he was relaxed and absolutely fine to walk on along rein etc. After a little while we could start in walk and be absolutely fine, this horse is utterly safe in the busiest of warm ups now, because I never allowed him to have a bad experience. But conversely, at the same stage, with the same horse, when he went in to do a test the best thing to do was drop the reins entirely and let him look all around at the new arena until he felt he had seen everything, and then I would pick up a contact and he would do a lovely nonspooky test. I dont need to do that anymore either. But it just demonstrates how its impossible to say that you must do one thing or another with a horse, they are all individuals and every situation is different.

 

[oldie48]

Oh dear, I am beginning to feel a bit repetitive but Daffy44 would having your horse stand in an arena have helped him cope with what he found a worrying situation, surely it was the "giving him something to get on with and keeping his focus on you" that eventually taught him that the warm up was not a place to have a meltdown, basically he trusted you to keep him safe so when you stopped and let him have a look round the strange arena, he said, OK Mum thinks it's OK so it is. My previous horse was not good in warm ups and frankly I never felt confident to ride him through it, in our last 6 months together I think I had cracked it but it from a riding point of view (or nearly!) but sadly I lost him to colic.

 

[daffy44]

Oh dear, I am beginning to feel a bit repetitive but Daffy44 would having your horse stand in an arena have helped him cope with what he found a worrying situation, surely it was the "giving him something to get on with and keeping his focus on you" that eventually taught him that the warm up was not a place to have a meltdown, basically he trusted you to keep him safe so when you stopped and let him have a look round the strange arena, he said, OK Mum thinks it's OK so it is. My previous horse was not good in warm ups and frankly I never felt confident to ride him through it, in our last 6 months together I think I had cracked it but it from a riding point of view (or nearly!) but sadly I lost him to colic.

Absolutely, thats what I said, making him stand in that warm up arena would have had a very bad ending, but giving him a simple job to do, allowing him to use some of his energy, and reminding him that I am in charge worked extremely well.

ETA: But I was just trying to show that one size doesnt fit all, dropping the reins and letting the horse look worked well in one situation, giving the horse and job to do and not allowing too much gawping worked best in a different situation.

 

[ihatework]

Tota

Totally agree but what I'm trying to understand is how making a horse stand still for a long time makes it calmer when it does have to cope with something, that's where I'm struggling.

Possibly two slightly different things getting confused.

For me, if you have a horse in a high state of alert/stress and their adrenaline is sky high, you are only going to really get them back with you when that adrenaline comes down. Two main ways to do this - stop, relax, process OR work/distract until you get that relaxation. Either way is fine, if it works for the horse but IME the former is quicker if it’s possible (which it isn’t always) but it might be safer to just work them through it.

Now, this comes back to holes in training, which really does need to be addressed early in the horses education. If the horse is happy to stand still it is helpful in so many situations. Who knew something so basic could be so difficult to achieve though. Maybe your bone idle dobbin will do this automatically, but your slightly busier horse, I find, can just get quite ansty when asked to stand still which if left unaddressed just takes one more tool out of your toolbox in times of stress when it might be needed.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Possibly two slightly different things getting confused.

For me, if you have a horse in a high state of alert/stress and their adrenaline is sky high, you are only going to really get them back with you when that adrenaline comes down. Two main ways to do this - stop, relax, process OR work/distract until you get that relaxation. Either way is fine, if it works for the horse but IME the former is quicker if it’s possible (which it isn’t always) but it might be safer to just work them through it.

Now, this comes back to holes in training, which really does need to be addressed early in the horses education. If the horse is happy to stand still it is helpful in so many situations. Who knew something so basic could be so difficult to achieve though. Maybe your bone idle dobbin will do this automatically, but your slightly busier horse, I find, can just get quite ansty when asked to stand still which if left unaddressed just takes one more tool out of your toolbox in times of stress when it might be needed.

It sounds like the De Cosema article is misleading then? Because it implies that 2 weeks of stand/chill work means horses who can stand/chill anywhere - such as a warm up area at a busy ODE. Amber has no problem standing in the arena at home but can be a handful at an event. It does not generalise. At least it hasn't for her.

 

[Ambers Echo]

And just on the issue of generalizing skills from one situation to another - I did a cow working clinic with Amber. It was fab. Who knew she could be so still and focused. That was a great example of 'dial up/dial down'. She had to be so patient edging a calf to a pen one slow step at a time with long pauses but then quick off the mark to head it off if it broke to run back to the herd. But it was clear she understood the job. I have never been able to get her as quietly focused as that again.

 

[Roxylola]

Those are both interesting points; one thing that occurred to me about the generalisation of stand and chill is that a warm up is much more stimulating than your arena at home. Translating to dogs, I can have rock solid heelwork in the house for very little reward from either of my dogs, take them in the garden it gets a little harder - they are doing dog stuff and have sniffs to check, I might need a biscuit to get a response to training. There's no point taking them to the woods and expecting heelwork for a good girl just because they can do it in the house. The greater the external stimulation the harder it is to get the same response. If you want it rock solid all the time you have to gradually increase the external environment - keep them under threshold.

I think if you train the chill switch you could then train it at clinics, train it at days out, train it at arena hires, train it in the working in (as in literally pay your money to get on, sit and chill and go home again) to the point that it is solid at any time. Could take a long old time and be rather expensive in entries, transport and clinic costs - could it be worth it? Perhaps I guess if you really want to get that response to be your go to every time. Is it better than using a different tool for a different environment - I just cheat and up the reward for the dogs when we go to the woods - if I have a high enough reward they'll heel everywhere. Could I train it better and do it without getting chicken grease everywhere? Sure, does it matter enough to me to bother - nope.

The cow herding, she has a job to do she's focused and working - doesn't make her any less hot naturally, just demonstrates that she's clearly got a good brain and can focus well when she knows her job. In the same way as she focuses on her jumping job cross country, I think you could train her to focus and listen a bit more to you maybe but I don't think you could convince her to tackle it in the same way as she tackled the cow herding.

 

[milliepops]

Those are both interesting points; one thing that occurred to me about the generalisation of stand and chill is that a warm up is much more stimulating than your arena at home. .

agree with this.
we often find that in times of stress or uncertainty, horses revert back to type even with things they have learned about in other situations. The old traits come back out. they might be more manageable because the horse has learned more about how you want it to behave but it's still bubbling under the surface.

Similar to how a horse that used to be crooked on a 20m circle but has learned and become supple enough to be straight when ridden well, will become crooked again when it's asked for a harder exercise - that straightness threshold has been breached. Or a horse that used to barge in hand, gets anxious about loading onto an unfamiliar lorry and the barging comes back because the horse is stressed.

you can move the threshold by practicing whatever it is in different places/circumstances/exercises etc but the trait will pop back up if the horse is pushed beyond the new threshold again.

 

[ycbm]

I assumed most people who train young horses take them to their first events to stand around and do not much. My objective the first few times out is to be there with a calm horse. It doesn't go into the arena if it's not.

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[Ambers Echo]

In the end it sounds like all these quick fixes turn out somewhat less simple than they appear on paper. Trainers say: Teach a horse to respect your space in an arena on a line and they will never barge as they will have learned 'respect', teach a horse to lead well and they will follow you anywhere, install a chill switch and you can get a chilled horse anywhere.... Just not the case. It seems you need to teach what you want in the context you want it. No short cuts!

 

[milliepops]

I assumed most people who train young horses take them to their first events to stand around and do not much. My objective the first few times out is to be there with a calm horse. It doesn't go into the arena if it's not.

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well again I think it depends on the horse.
If you have one that gets worse with the standing around, then in order to have a good experience it can be prudent to let the horse use some of it's nervous energy by moving around in a controllable way.

My aims when taking a horse out to its first show is for the horse to not feel overly anxious, to travel well there and back and for us both to feel confident with each other. If it can't stand still because it's a bit overstimulated then I would decide that will come with time when it's learned that it's nothing to be worried about

eta basically I don't want to end up putting either of us in a position where we can't solve a problem. If a horse is getting more wound up by me asking it to stand still in a stressful situation, then the risk is that it will escalate and we won't get to a position where it is quietly standing, because the challenge is too great. How many hours do you stand there while it throws a paddy and upsets all the other competitors is the horse learning anything positive from that?

If the horse is the type that settles faster by being given a task, even if the task is trotting some potato shapes on a contact for 15 mins, then it will get back on the lorry having learned something useful about trotting potatoes away from home JMO!

 

[Roxylola]

I assumed most people who train young horses take them to their first events to stand around and do not much. My objective the first few times out is to be there with a calm horse. It doesn't go into the arena if it's not.

I'd agree to an extent - I'm certainly not taking something in to an arena for the sake of it when it's lost its mind (I don't bounce any more) but if cracking on in trot and canter for 10 minutes will settle the horse why not do that. I'm not so determined to have a horse that can just stand and chill for 30 minutes in any environment that I'll commit to training it in every single environment, I just want one that does it's job. For me that's a compromise I'm happy enough with.

 

[ycbm]

Yes, sorry MP I meant it figuratively not literally, which was a bit dumb considering the discussion had been about standing absolutely still ?

 

[ycbm]

It wouldn't worry me much if a horse wouldn't stand completely still for long periods, that seems to me to be only required by working western horses.

Lots, TBs in particular, seem to find it very stressful.

I'd normally concentrate on a relaxed amble rather than a relaxed prolonged halt.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Having said all that, I will still do this with Deedee and it seems to be a gap in her education. But I won't expect miracles as a result.

 

[milliepops]

In the end it sounds like all these quick fixes turn out somewhat less simple than they appear on paper. Trainers say: Teach a horse to respect your space in an arena on a line and they will never barge as they will have learned 'respect', teach a horse to lead well and they will follow you anywhere, install a chill switch and you can get a chilled horse anywhere.... Just not the case. It seems you need to teach what you want in the context you want it. No short cuts!

I think you're right that there aren't any short cuts - if there were we'd all be using them as standard for every horse that was broken in
I think all these kinds of techniques can work really well for some horses for some situations and the trick for all of us is to pick and choose according to our own horses and levels of experience.
I think in general nothing can replace the time and repetition of basic correct "normal" training for the horse to learn your cues and then apply them in more and more places and situations. each time you are in a new place then to an extent the horse will probably need a minute reinforcement of what it has learned at home. Eventually that becomes routine and fairly effortless.

 

[oldie48]

Thanks, ihatework, that's understood. Mr B was quite an anxious horse

I assumed most people who train young horses take them to their first events to stand around and do not much. My objective the first few times out is to be there with a calm horse. It doesn't go into the arena if it's not.

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I could take Mr B anywhere and he was calm. He'd stand nicely at the lorry, happily stand outside an arena and watch the world go by, what he didn't like was horses coming towards him particularly if he was between the fence and the oncoming horse. However, a stronger more effective rider than me could keep him focused and get him through the experience. It didn't mean he was any less anxious but it did stop him reacting.

 

[maya2008]

My ‘quick fix’ is my old retired mare - unquestionably the herd leader; has raised almost all the others from youngsters. She has serious ‘words’ if they step out of line, most recently when one youngster bucked my son off and ran all the way home. No one was allowed to talk to her for days! Next time he came off, she ran off, thought better of it and came trotting back, head down, apologetic! Every time one comes back she wants a report on how it went. Her ‘job’ is invaluable!

 

[Michen]

This is an interesting thread. Boggle, is without a doubt a "hot" horse. I'm sure plenty would feel he needs more basics instilled in him, and maybe they are right. My feeling is that you pick your battes with hot ones.

Will my horse stand still for a car to pass, stand simediately after a gallop for me to pick something up and get back on, tie up anywhere, stand on the lorry for indefinite periods of time, stand still hunting, stand at an event... etc etc. Yes absolutely.

Will he sometimes forget his manners, loose his little hot head and need a reminder (usually a bit of a slap on the arse to snap him out of his playpen mind? Yes sometimes.

I don't expect him to stand still and be perfect in every single situation every single time, but I can hand on heart say he's never let me down when I've really needed him to remember his training. I don't know what it is but I swear they just seem to "know" when it really matters. I genuinely feel like I have a good balance with Boggle most of the time between letting him be the hot head buzzy twit he is to an extent because it's his disposition and actually I'd hate to dull him down, but also knowing I can count on him to keep me safe. We have an understanding most of the time and usually we are on the same page. To me, a horse you can pull up mid gallop, mid line and get off to retrieve something and get back on whilst the rest of the hunt field disappear and who will do it impeccably is a great example of manners when it counts. That said I've never managed to get him to stop dancing around when tacking up for hunting!

However he's beyond hot at the moment but that's my own fault for not being able to take him hunting and let him use his currently ridiculous level of fitness.. for the first time in 2 years I'm genuinely wondering whether he's going to deck me...

 

[Ambers Echo]

I don't expect him to stand still and be perfect in every single situation every single time, but I can hand on heart say he's never let me down when I've really needed him to remember his training. I don't know what it is but I swear they just seem to "know" when it really matters. I genuinely feel like I have the perfect balance with Boggle most of the time between letting him be the hot head buzzy twit he is to an extent because it's his disposition and actually I'd hate to dull him down, but also knowing I can count on him to keep me safe.

I love Boggle! And this is great. I used to say exactly the same about Amber. I just really hope whatever was up with her that day was a one off and she is as you describe. Busy, keen, over enthusiastic but basically safe.

 

[Michen]

I love Boggle! And this is great. I used to say exactly the same about Amber. I just really hope whatever was up with her that day was a one off and she is as you describe. Busy, keen, over enthusiastic but basically safe.

I know, and I thought of you the other day when I was hacking. Actually I thought of you because usually Boggle's boggleness wouldn't plant a seed of doubt in my mind, but it was that little bit "extra" and I had obviously seen what had happened with Amber- and it made me question!

It's ironic that not once has Boggle made me feel like he was going to deck me hunting, even in the early days, but at the moment hacking when he switches on I'm sat thinking hmmmm... and breathe. I can't even remember the last time I felt that nervous of his potential explosiveness. It's taking lots of will power to just relax the reins and ignore him.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I've had Amber 3 years. I have come off her a few times but the Somerford behaviour was the only fall I'd blame on her and not me. She has pinged me off, she has spun when a pheasant flew up in her face which I think is fair enough, she once ducked out a XC fence I was not committed to. But never before has she launched herself into orbit for no clear reason and basically bucked me off. But they all seem a bit loopy just now.

 

[tristar]

i have one who when young was reluctant to be mounted, so i leapt on and walked straight off, if i had insisted he stand still i am sure he would have gone up a both ends, so i let him express his right to object,now this is very rare i would not do this normally i would insist on a few moments of submission as i mount then move off pretty sharp and build on the length of immobility before moving off.

he is now very good to mount but still retains the nucleus of that tendancy to dominate, i feel like he has met me half way and i dont expect perfection, its like we came to an arrangement, he is a very intelligent stallion of certain breeding , so i would expect him to never be anything other than who he is, bold and full of courage

when i go to ride i try to put out of mind everything else and think what horse will i be riding today and look out for the smallest signs of over exuberance for example and deal with it accordingly, ie if i did not ride the horse the day before i might lunge it before riding, if its a bit tense or looky looking i make sure its turned out before riding, to me prep is everything and this is where i need to be before expecting a hot horse to stand still, cope with a stressful situation or learn something new.

coping is a learned strategy, which translates its benefits of tolerance, to other situations and develops not just trust in the rider but the horses own self confidence, develops its intelligence and ability to judge things itself and the initiative to make the choice to ignore a tractor for example, to tolerate a scary object, or tolerate stillness when it would rather move off, its like they learn to think rationally and control impulses

i think taking horses to shows just to look around is wise i thought most people did anyway

 

[Sail_away]

I do think horse’s behaviour and ‘hotness’ can change. I think in some scenarios it just won’t, though. If you’ve got a horse that gets hot because it knows its job and wants to get on with it then I think it’s a case of managing it, because however much walking and chilling you do, once it catches sight of its ‘job’ then it knows what to do and wants to get on with it.
But I mean, I’ve have my horse for a year and a half, and he’s had a complete personality swap. He was nervous, rushed a lot, and tended to refuse when pushed. He was also very, very strong. But now his default mode has changed from rushing to chilling. For him, he’s lot better when he knows his job. He's currently got the PC schoolmaster trophy, which made me laugh at first, but it does show how much he’s changed. And obviously part of that is down to training, and consistent work, but part of it is that I’m lucky enough to have a horse who is calmer and more consistent when he knows exactly what he’s doing.

 

[JFTDWS]

He'd stand nicely at the lorry, happily stand outside an arena and watch the world go by, what he didn't like was horses coming towards him particularly if he was between the fence and the oncoming horse.

When horses behaved like this at polocrosse and didn't like close contact, we often did training games where the horses all stood around on a long rein and people were sent to trot / canter around the horse in a circle (diameter dependent on the stationary horse's confidence / training level) while doing stick drills, until the horse learned to cope with its space being invaded. There were variations on this that I saw while training - fences aren't relevant to grass poloX, but do crop up in arena matches (a lot of the established horses didn't like being penned to the fence, actually) and people were probably working on that in a similar way. I did a bit with Skye who really wasn't happy with horses in her space at first - she got loads better, but ultimately I couldn't engineer enough opportunities to work on this, because I only rode with other horses once a month at training and it was depressingly slow going, especially as I couldn't expect to hold up every training session with my inexperienced mare when others were aiming for big competitions. I know that the approach worked with many horses who went on to play successfully. I'm sure it wouldn't work for all horses, though, nothing ever does!

 

[ycbm]

I've had Amber 3 years. I have come off her a few times but the Somerford behaviour was the only fall I'd blame on her and not me. She has pinged me off, she has spun when a pheasant flew up in her face which I think is fair enough, she once ducked out a XC fence I was not committed to. But never before has she launched herself into orbit for no clear reason and basically bucked me off. But they all seem a bit loopy just now.

I'm reluctant to suggest this as it gets said so much, but if Amber gives her standin rider any problems, and this behaviour is uncharacteristic, it will be worth considering the possibility that her change of yards and routine has given her ulcers as well as Deedee. It does sound like a possible 'acid just splashed up my sore stomach' reaction.

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[redapple]

I don't know what it is but I swear they just seem to "know" when it really matters. I genuinely feel like I have a good balance with Boggle most of the time between letting him be the hot head buzzy twit he is to an extent because it's his disposition and actually I'd hate to dull him down, but also knowing I can count on him to keep me safe.

I think this is the difference between a hot but not overwhelmed/out of control horse and a horse that's losing the plot! I've got a mare that dances, swings about and can look and feel very hot. But if I say walk, we can walk. Oddly the same is true for her napping out (a work in progress) she doesn't nap when crossing roads. I'm not sure if that's because I ride in a way that makes it clear that that would be totally unacceptable or she senses that pratting about on an A-road Might not be a smart idea. She can be napping in the forest, cross the road to the next forest and start trying to nap again!

I have however got on hot horses and jumped off because there's nothing there and I'm a total passenger. Can obviously be worked through but it's a different feeling.

 

[Michen]

I think this is the difference between a hot but not overwhelmed/out of control horse and a horse that's losing the plot! I've got a mare that dances, swings about and can look and feel very hot. But if I say walk, we can walk. Oddly the same is true for her napping out (a work in progress) she doesn't nap when crossing roads. I'm not sure if that's because I ride in a way that makes it clear that that would be totally unacceptable or she senses that pratting about on an A-road Might not be a smart idea. She can be napping in the forest, cross the road to the next forest and start trying to nap again!

I have however got on hot horses and jumped off because there's nothing there and I'm a total passenger. Can obviously be worked through but it's a different feeling.

I think it depends on the rider as well though. I’ve had very experienced riders who were sharing boggle come back leading him on foot because they felt he was going to bolt with them! He’s never ever given me that feeling, explode yes. Bolt absolutely not.

The wrong rider on Boggle could have awful consequences, by no means am I an experienced or decent jockey but I have grown with him and understand him and I like to think I know when to reprimand, when to go quiet and how to deal with his hotness to avoid any consequences. I think many riders would end up winding him up more. I truly believe you had to let hot horses express themselves to a certain extent (whilst remaining in clear boundaries).

I do think sometimes we expect too much. I’m not perfect, sometimes when I’m nervous I ride like a pillock etc... forgetting any training I’ve ever had! Why would our horses be any different if they get excited or tense? I’m not advocating they should get away with poor behaviour but sometimes we are so fixated on ensuring they behave in the expected way all the time whatever the situation, rather than thinking ok- horse is reacting like x, how can I mitigate/soothe this situation. Asking a wound up or excited horse to do something it mentally just won’t be able to cope with is just starting an already lost battle.

 

[redapple]

Absolutely agree Michen, you have to adapt to the horse and the day. I don't always stick to plan if I don't feel it's going to work/is counterproductive. I think a lot of training hot horses is not getting to the point that you blow their minds.

Its also why I won't jump one XC yet as even though they've got the jump but I don't trust they have the mental capabilities to focus yet, not enough for me to feel happy tackling anything big and solid. Like somebody said above all the baby steps are not there and pushing/rushing it could be disastrous.

 

[maya2008]

I've had Amber 3 years. I have come off her a few times but the Somerford behaviour was the only fall I'd blame on her and not me. She has pinged me off, she has spun when a pheasant flew up in her face which I think is fair enough, she once ducked out a XC fence I was not committed to. But never before has she launched herself into orbit for no clear reason and basically bucked me off. But they all seem a bit loopy just now.

In 3 years you would have experienced this behaviour before if she was prone to it. Ulcers/a physical issue. You have a sudden change in behaviour at a venue you have been to before, on an amount of turnout she has been on before...

Yes they are all unable to play properly in the field at the moment and a bit more keen to ‘go’ under saddle, but they retain their basic temperaments - my insecure but sweet one is still himself, just a bit quicker; his half sister is her usual bossy self, just more keen to canter; the Shetland is...trying to run home all the time (normal for her at this time of year) and my sweet speedy mare looks after my kids like they are made from glass no matter how much she wants to run (and would seriously ask to with me on board!). At this time of year my TB used to go into orbit regularly but with no malice or intent to lose her human- that was her, happened every year...! If Amber is behaving out of character, then something is wrong.