CDJ withdrawn from paris

[BurntontheoutsideTurkey]

I would agree with a lot of that.It is hideous but that's what the judges reward.Why I don’t know.On the other hand I was watching a low key dressage competition the other day and the horses looked relaxed and I didn't see any abuse.No one was competing above novice though.It was a BD comp.
A lot of people do get a lot of pleasure training their horses and going to competitions.I wouldn't want it to stop but the abuse must stop or horse sports will go the way of bear bathing for instance.

I've ridden a couple of horses that were trained (by men, maybe coincidentally) so that with a 'normal' rider (i.e. me) they would not 'go' if you took up the contact. I wasn't prepared or able to do what was necessary to make them go, so I just used to ride them on a long rein and that was fine by me. I read a little while back that horses in this system are having to make a decision about which stimulus is most salient - i.e., which can they achieve a release from? If the contact is always strong regardless of what they do, then when the leg or whip is applied they will go despite the contact because they can at least relieve that pressure. That seems like the most miserable existence I can think of, almost, and I suspect many ordinary competitors particularly at the lower levels are not prepared to/cannot ride like that (or wouldn't even consider that results are obtained in that way because everyone goes on about lightness and harmony...). Which is great - but those that are prepared to ride like that do well because their horses look like those stressed, exaggerated creatures in paintings and statuary that apparently we should aspire to.

Having said that there is at least one photo posted on this forum by a rider where the horse has a visibly discoloured tongue so this isn't the preserve of the very top ranks and I wonder if more of this sort of evidence would be visible at lower levels/national competitions if people went looking for it - which is actually quite sad if you think that people whose hobby it is and who have close relationships with what's essentially a pet are still potentially causing their horses mental and physical discomfort without really being that conscious of it, because that's what riding in the modern way gets you.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

No @eahotson anger management is not meant to be a punishment. It is 'treatment' for a 'behaviour or addiction' and as such is relevant to the crime of animal abuse.

It is a relevant and a suitable 'treatment' for cases like Helgstrand/CDJ in a similar way that Oisin Murphy is getting both attentive testing for alcohol/drug abuse and at the same time getting support counselling for his alcohol addiction.

Similarly people sent to prison are (supposed to) get rehabilitation to prevent them reoffending.

Abuse cases should merit punishment and also remedial training/treatment to prevent recurrence.

There needs to be an animal centred version of those programmes perpetrators of DV can do

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

Well when she shows some remorse for actually beating a horse with a stick, in fact multiple horses with multiple sticks and training other people how to hit horses with sticks, and proves shes using alternative methods then maybe people will stop beating her with a metaphorical stick.

If you are sacked for gross misconduct you will find it next to impossible to get another job, you damn certainly wouldnt be in the same job after a lovely holiday. But lets say you did get extremely lucky, if you repeated the same behaviour you'd be sacked again. But in this instance, she wasnt sacked, she was sent on gardening leave, and shes back, exactly where she was prior to this coming out, showing no remorse and using the same techniques, just hiding them better this time.

What is your version of remorse? Have you gotten down on your knees and begged forgiveness for everything you have done wrong in life? I hardly think so

What proof do you need? Daily videos? You hanging on her back like a monkey waiting for the slip so you can used the big stick again? Honestly you act like she’s not just as human as the rest of us.

Also I hardly think having a child is a restful holiday. I haven’t been pregnant myself however I’ve seen enough to know that it can be absolute hell for some people. You would think from the way some of you are carrying on that she’s gone on a years round the world trip lavishing in luxury whilst she’s been off. You have no idea what this persons life has been like since that incident. Also getting sacked from gross misconduct doesn’t stop you getting other jobs. One company’s version of gross misconduct isnt every companies. So I hardly think everyone who has ever had that put down as their termination is permanently unemployed .

I just think some people need to get off their high horse and stop acting like they have done everything perfectly. God knows I haven’t.

 

[Exasperated]

No it isn't acceptable and my preference would be for horses not to be used competitively at all. But what I find particularly disturbing about dressage is that the majority of modern dressage training, the basic system, is based on compressing the horse by telling them to stop and go at the same time. It's this basic fact that's at the root of most of the terrible training outcomes we are seeing - horses that have decided not to go at all (Heath Ryan), horses that need to be literally driven into the contact (CDJ), horses that need to be made sore and frightened of the aids (lots of people both at high and lower levels), horses flying along off the spur yet with such pressure in their mouths that the blood supply is compromised - the basic system creates all these issues so we shouldn't be saying great, let's let her get on with doing more of that!

Vaguely pertaining to this entire debate is this recent article:

“But my horse is well cared for”: A qualitative exploration of cognitive dissonance and enculturation in equestrian attitudes toward performance horses and their welfare | Animal Welfare | Cambridge Core

“But my horse is well cared for”: A qualitative exploration of cognitive dissonance and enculturation in equestrian attitudes toward performance horses and their welfare - Volume 34

www.cambridge.org

I don’t disagree that senior level dressage is full of ugly contradictions, but this research paper!!?!
22 participants, phenomenological interview technique (altho actually conducted via computer video link, not in person), yet many times more ‘column inches’ of contextual references than quotes for analysis from the actual interviewees - where exactly are the full interviews, or is that all that was ever said by them?
State of our universities in the postmodern era, eh? who signed off on that?

 

[BurntontheoutsideTurkey]

What is your version of remorse? Have you gotten down on your knees and begged forgiveness for everything you have done wrong in life? I hardly think so

What proof do you need? Daily videos? You hanging on her back like a monkey waiting for the slip so you can used the big stick again? Honestly you act like she’s not just as human as the rest of us.

Also I hardly think having a child is a restful holiday. I haven’t been pregnant myself however I’ve seen enough to know that it can be absolute hell for some people. You would think from the way some of you are carrying on that she’s gone on a years round the world trip lavishing in luxury whilst she’s been off. You have no idea what this persons life has been like since that incident. Also getting sacked from gross misconduct doesn’t stop you getting other jobs. One company’s version of gross misconduct isnt every companies. So I hardly think everyone who has ever had that put down as their termination is permanently unemployed .

I just think some people need to get off their high horse and stop acting like they have done everything perfectly. God knows I haven’t.

I for one have not achieved a devoted public following by promoting myself as being one thing and then been proved to be the other thing. The discussion here has come back to her after a fairly lengthy break in which other indiscretions have been discussed because she's just picked up again essentially where she left off, and probably with a decent proportion of her devoted public following intact if SM comments are any guide. I bet she'll now be a good deal more careful about who she lets film her training, but that's hardly confidence-inspiring - if the opposite were true we could feel like she actually wanted to shed some light on how she achieves her results.

 

[BurntontheoutsideTurkey]

I don’t disagree that senior level dressage is full of ugly contradictions, but this research paper!!?!
22 participants, phenomenological interview technique (altho actually conducted via computer video link, not in person), yet many times more ‘column inches’ of contextual references than quotes for analysis from the actual interviewees - where exactly are the full interviews, or is that all that was ever said by them?
State of our universities in the postmodern era, eh? who signed off on that?

Haven't actually got very far with reading it yet but will do so with interest all the same.

 

[Nancykitt]

Her reputation has been destroyed, so yes she was sacked in a sense. Even after being sacked you can get another job doing the same thing in the same industry.

As teaching has been mentioned previously, I just wanted to clarify that, for a teacher, any sort of physical aggression towards a pupil is literally career ending.
There is an organisation called the Teacher Regulation Agency whose panels decided on whether or not teachers should have 'prohibition orders'. This doesn't just stop them from getting another teaching job, it prevents them from having any involvement with children and young people at all, even in a voluntary role. Some orders are for a few years (at which point they can apply to have the order lifted), some are literally for life.

I know teachers who have been goaded to the point where they've snapped - and that's it.
Even verbal abuse can get school staff in very hot water.

Obviously these people can get another job, but it has to be in a completely different area.
The expectation is that you do not ever, under any circumstances, lash out. You will not be forgiven.

This is not to say that CDJ should have a lifetime ban, but I just wanted to point out that the threshold is very different in some occupations.

 

[eahotson]

I've ridden a couple of horses that were trained (by men, maybe coincidentally) so that with a 'normal' rider (i.e. me) they would not 'go' if you took up the contact. I wasn't prepared or able to do what was necessary to make them go, so I just used to ride them on a long rein and that was fine by me. I read a little while back that horses in this system are having to make a decision about which stimulus is most salient - i.e., which can they achieve a release from? If the contact is always strong regardless of what they do, then when the leg or whip is applied they will go despite the contact because they can at least relieve that pressure. That seems like the most miserable existence I can think of, almost, and I suspect many ordinary competitors particularly at the lower levels are not prepared to/cannot ride like that (or wouldn't even consider that results are obtained in that way because everyone goes on about lightness and harmony...). Which is great - but those that are prepared to ride like that do well because their horses look like those stressed, exaggerated creatures in paintings and statuary that apparently we should aspire to.

Having said that there is at least one photo posted on this forum by a rider where the horse has a visibly discoloured tongue so this isn't the preserve of the very top ranks and I wonder if more of this sort of evidence would be visible at lower levels/national competitions if people went looking for it - which is actually quite sad if you think that people whose hobby it is and who have close relationships with what's essentially a pet are still potentially causing their horses mental and physical discomfort without really being that conscious of it, because that's what riding in the modern

As teaching has been mentioned previously, I just wanted to clarify that, for a teacher, any sort of physical aggression towards a pupil is literally career ending.
There is an organisation called the Teacher Regulation Agency whose panels decided on whether or not teachers should have 'prohibition orders'. This doesn't just stop them from getting another teaching job, it prevents them from having any involvement with children and young people at all, even in a voluntary role. Some orders are for a few years (at which point they can apply to have the order lifted), some are literally for life.

I know teachers who have been goaded to the point where they've snapped - and that's it.
Even verbal abuse can get school staff in very hot water.

Obviously these people can get another job, but it has to be in a completely different area.
The expectation is that you do not ever, under any circumstances, lash out. You will not be forgiven.

This is not to say that CDJ should have a lifetime ban, but I just wanted to point out that the threshold is very different in some occupations.

Pity that isn't in the horse world.I have seen children abused by their parents for mistakes in the ring.Nothing said.It isn't just horses that need protection.

 

[eahotson]

As teaching has been mentioned previously, I just wanted to clarify that, for a teacher, any sort of physical aggression towards a pupil is literally career ending.
There is an organisation called the Teacher Regulation Agency whose panels decided on whether or not teachers should have 'prohibition orders'. This doesn't just stop them from getting another teaching job, it prevents them from having any involvement with children and young people at all, even in a voluntary role. Some orders are for a few years (at which point they can apply to have the order lifted), some are literally for life.

I know teachers who have been goaded to the point where they've snapped - and that's it.
Even verbal abuse can get school staff in very hot water.

Obviously these people can get another job, but it has to be in a completely different area.
The expectation is that you do not ever, under any circumstances, lash out. You will not be forgiven.

This is not to say that CDJ should have a lifetime ban, but I just wanted to point out that the threshold is very different in some occupations.

Is any specialist training given to staff in these situations or any support otherwise it becomes a bullies charter for some of those children.

 

[Nancykitt]

Is any specialist training given to staff in these situations or any support otherwise it becomes a bullies charter for some of those children.

All teachers are trained in basic principles of behaviour management and schools will often have their own training related to the particular approaches they use.
Even when children behave in a completely unacceptable manner (including verbal or even physical abuse), staff understand that they must not retaliate.

In some cases, staff may receive specialist training in strategies for physical restraint, but there are strict conditions for the use of force (ie, there must be a risk of the pupil causing actual harm to themselves or others).

I know one long-serving teacher who was hit by a child and made the fatal error of hitting back. He went straight away to the headteacher's office and said 'I understand that this is the end of my teaching career' and went home. He became successful in another career, but in some occupations it's very black and white. You hit out, it's all over. It doesn't matter if you were goaded, provoked, hit...if you can't keep your cool, your career is finished.

Imagine if we had a similar approach for those who work with horses...we've all seen people who would be kicked out and forbidden from working with any animal. (I still shudder when I think of an incident I witnessed at Olympia one year where a famous showjumper lost his rag and took it out badly on the horse; awful, but many of the public seem very forgiving).
Obviously, it's not quite the same as working with children in schools; lots of work with horses goes on behind closed doors and we don't get to find out about it unless there are 'secret' videos.
But I'm really not happy that some people get away with causing pain and suffering with little or no consequences.

 

[eahotson]

All teachers are trained in basic principles of behaviour management and schools will often have their own training related to the particular approaches they use.
Even when children behave in a completely unacceptable manner (including verbal or even physical abuse), staff understand that they must not retaliate.

In some cases, staff may receive specialist training in strategies for physical restraint, but there are strict conditions for the use of force (ie, there must be a risk of the pupil causing actual harm to themselves or others).

I know one long-serving teacher who was hit by a child and made the fatal error of hitting back. He went straight away to the headteacher's office and said 'I understand that this is the end of my teaching career' and went home. He became successful in another career, but in some occupations it's very black and white. You hit out, it's all over. It doesn't matter if you were goaded, provoked, hit...if you can't keep your cool, your career is finished.

Imagine if we had a similar approach for those who work with horses...we've all seen people who would be kicked out and forbidden from working with any animal. (I still shudder when I think of an incident I witnessed at Olympia one year where a famous showjumper lost his rag and took it out badly on the horse; awful, but many of the public seem very forgiving).
Obviously, it's not quite the same as working with children in schools; lots of work with horses goes on behind closed doors and we don't get to find out about it unless there are 'secret' videos.
But I'm really not happy that some people get away with causing pain and suffering with little or no consequences.

So children learn that they can abuse their teachers with no come back? One of my neighbours was a teacher.She really struggled with one child and frankly neglected some of the others sometimes because of it.Finally he left faeces in one of her desk drawers.He was suspended for a week.His father then came to the school and beat up a 50 plus year old woman.She was off sick and her arthritis started then.She returned to work and the father tried again.They had emergency buttons in the class room by then and she said the staff were marvellous at responding. It finished her though.This was in a primary school.

 

[Nancykitt]

So children learn that they can abuse their teachers with no come back? One of my neighbours was a teacher.She really struggled with one child and frankly neglected some of the others sometimes because of it.Finally he left faeces in one of her desk drawers.He was suspended for a week.His father then came to the school and beat up a 50 plus year old woman.She was off sick and her arthritis started then.She returned to work and the father tried again.They had emergency buttons in the class room by then and she said the staff were marvellous at responding. It finished her though.This was in a primary school.

That's a particularly bad case... I know some staff who have simply not been able to return to work having gone through serious incidents.
Schools do have the power to suspend or even permanently exclude pupils - they can also ban parents from the school site if needed.
Things can get complicated if a child has special needs/disabilities; the fact is that many mainstream schools simply aren't resourced to meet those needs. But dealing with some of those children can be very, very difficult. Life for teachers can be extremely tough and there's evidence to show an increase in parental complaints.

However, no matter how badly a pupil behaves, a member of staff can never hit out. I've seen some extreme behaviour from children and tbh I can totally understand why some staff would hit out - but it's career-ending.
When we think about how some horses do nothing wrong and even may be trying hard to please, but they get beaten/physically abused - it just doesn't seem right.

 

[eahotson]

That's a particularly bad case... I know some staff who have simply not been able to return to work having gone through serious incidents.
Schools do have the power to suspend or even permanently exclude pupils - they can also ban parents from the school site if needed.
Things can get complicated if a child has special needs/disabilities; the fact is that many mainstream schools simply aren't resourced to meet those needs. But dealing with some of those children can be very, very difficult. Life for teachers can be extremely tough and there's evidence to show an increase in parental complaints.

However, no matter how badly a pupil behaves, a member of staff can never hit out. I've seen some extreme behaviour from children and tbh I can totally understand why some staff would hit out - but it's career-ending.
When we think about how some horses do nothing wrong and even may be trying hard to please, but they get beaten/physically abused - it just doesn't seem right.

I don't like abuse.I don't like animals or children abused but I don’t like it when children and their parents are abusive either.I worked in a prison for a while as a nurse.Some of the young ones in for the first time would try throwing their weight around.They very quickly regretted it and no the staff didn't hit them,they had other methods.

 

[equinerebel]

I just think some people need to get off their high horse and stop acting like they have done everything perfectly. God knows I haven’t.

Weird way to tell everyone that you think abusing animals is acceptable, but okay.

If someone hit my child, they would have no second chance to do it again.

If someone hit my dog, they would have no second chance to do it again.

Working with and riding horses is a privilege, not a right.

There’s plenty of other occupations out there where your ambition and drive to succeed does not rely on highly sensitive animals that cannot consent. I’d be fully supportive of her trying any of those bc I simply don’t believe the incident was a one off, nor do I believe she is remorseful based entirely of her own words.

I would not be prepared to gamble that with my horse. Would you?

 

[BurntontheoutsideTurkey]

Weird way to tell everyone that you think abusing animals is acceptable, but okay.

If someone hit my child, they would have no second chance to do it again.

If someone hit my dog, they would have no second chance to do it again.

Working with and riding horses is a privilege, not a right.

There’s plenty of other occupations out there where your ambition and drive to succeed does not rely on highly sensitive animals that cannot consent. I’d be fully supportive of her trying any of those bc I simply don’t believe the incident was a one off, nor do I believe she is remorseful based entirely of her own words.

I would not be prepared to gamble that I was right or wrong with my horse. Would you?

There is a telling lack of people prepared to engage with that particular question (here and elsewhere on SM)

 

[equinerebel]

There is a telling lack of people prepared to engage with that particular question (here and elsewhere on SM)

I must have asked the same question about four times on this thread so far

 

[BurntontheoutsideTurkey]

I must have asked the same question about four times on this thread so far

Yup

 

[Upthecreek]

Anyone saying that CDJ should be given a second chance after watching the video of her repeatedly whipping a distressed and confused horse should seriously think about what horse welfare means to them. If it was up to me she would get a lifetime ban. She certainly does not deserve to pick up where she left off after her maternity leave. Frankly I don’t want to hear that this, that and the other is worse than what she did. Making an example of her would send the clearest message possible to all who participate in this ‘sport’ that behaviour like that is totally unacceptable and the consequences are serious and career ending. But no, have a few months off and carry on People who do bad things need to show genuine remorse (for what they did, not for being caught doing it), and commit to doing better to be deserving of a second chance.

 

[moosea]

I think this post needs putting to bed now. It’s run for long enough . Can any of us say really honestly, we had never ever done something we regretted ..??
Give her a chance. She will be in the headlights on every thing she does for next year or so.
Even people in prison get a second chance don’t they. But on Social MEDIA media one can be hung drawn and quartered

I don't want to give her a chance. She had all the chances. She was not some young girl trying to break into top level equestrian sport on a shoestring. She is a wealthy and supposedly knowledgeable horse woman at the top of her sport. There is no excuse for her behaviour.

This. I do think people have to be given a second chance, would you advocate keeping all prisoners locked up for life?

I suspect what happened to her has made a lot of other people reconsider what they do (and less helpfully where) to avoid being in the same situation, and so has maybe done more good than realised. Can any of us honestly say we've never done anything we felt was wrong and later regretted it? I know I can't.

As long as her approach has changed then I wish her all the best for the future.

Prisoners do get a second chance but I assume you wouldn't think it was a good idea to let a child abuser out of prison to work with children?

 

[Nancykitt]

Prisoners do get a second chance but I assume you wouldn't think it was a good idea to let a child abuser out of prison to work with children?

I think this is the point I was trying to make through the teacher examples. There are teachers who get prohibition orders; they haven't been sent to prison, but they are never given the chance to make the same mistake again. They are, of course, at liberty to make a living in another occupation.
The sort of people being discussed on this thread are different because they do get another chance, regardless of whether they deserve it or not.
I'm not denying that there are some talented riders who put in the hours, but people competing at that level are in a fortunate position in many respects...there is no way that they should take advantage of this, especially if this involves advocating a kind approach to training when the reality is very different.

 

[Dave's Mam]

"This one's shit for hitting them with"
Let that sink in if it hasn't already.
That's dripping with intent.

 

[Boulty]

I think the reason most do not wish to forgive & forget is that a large part of CDJs success & popularity came from being seen as different and kinder than a lot of those competing at the same level (largely through her very close association with Carl who has done a lot to promote better ways of keeping and training high level dressage horses) and so there is an extra level of disappointment and the feeling of having been deceived compared to finding out that someone who had long been suspected of abuse (eg Helgstrand) has indeed been doing what they were suspected of.

Realistically I think it would be extremely difficult to enforce a total ban on her competing / training for forever & not in line with how other disciplines deal with similar issues currently but I think team GB should think very very carefully about the appropriateness of ever offering her the chance to represent her country again. (My personal opinion is that this is a door that should remain closed to her & to anyone else found to be promoting abusive training practices).

I don’t think allowing her to compete again necessarily means we have to forgive her, especially if the narrative she’s pushing isn’t a particularly repentant one. Forgiveness is earned not an automatic right.

 

[Caol Ila]

I think the reason most do not wish to forgive & forget is that a large part of CDJs success & popularity came from being seen as different and kinder than a lot of those competing at the same level (largely through her very close association with Carl who has done a lot to promote better ways of keeping and training high level dressage horses) and so there is an extra level of disappointment and the feeling of having been deceived compared to finding out that someone who had long been suspected of abuse (eg Helgstrand) has indeed been doing what they were suspected of.

Realistically I think it would be extremely difficult to enforce a total ban on her competing / training for forever & not in line with how other disciplines deal with similar issues currently but I think team GB should think very very carefully about the appropriateness of ever offering her the chance to represent her country again. (My personal opinion is that this is a door that should remain closed to her & to anyone else found to be promoting abusive training practices).

I don’t think allowing her to compete again necessarily means we have to forgive her, especially if the narrative she’s pushing isn’t a particularly repentant one. Forgiveness is earned not an automatic right.

Yeah, you nailed it. When Helgstrand was done for abusing horses, was anyone surprised....? Crickets...? Bueller...? Anyone....?

But Charlotte was caught, we were all surprised. Well, I was. I think many other horse people were as well, because she'd done so much to promote her brand and her persona as kinder, gentler, horse-welfare orientated upper level dressage (not like Helgstrand and all those rollkury people), proving that you could win international GPs with ethical training. And most of us believed it. So when the video came out, and she was so casual about whipping the sh1t out of that horse, we were all like WTF?

Made even those of us who like watching the FEI stuff question, well, all of it.

 

[Exasperated]

"This one's shit for hitting them with"
Let that sink in if it hasn't already.
That's dripping with intent.

From the notorious video, filmed several years ago?
Objectively, correct: if one wanted to beat anything bloody and bruised, then a flicky, springy, lunge whip probably isn’t the most abusive tool, but she was undoubtedly bullying and tormenting that horse, and fully aware of it, too. Does she intend that now?
I remember initial ‘mea culpa’ from CDJ (maybe fake?), also her stated intention to re establish trust and redeem herself in future. More promising.
Right now, exactly what’s getting whipped, or getting bribed with treats, is unknown. Those who feel duped and disappointed remain suspicious, but actually don’t know - good or bad. CDJ is a very effective rider who has had months to hone empathic techniques towards her recent successes, if she has been so motivated. There is no evidence of further abuse; many detest what she did and will always detest her, but that doesn’t mean that CDJ (or others) are incapable of improvement.
So how should this perpetrator prove rehabilitation?
How could social media doubters be convinced? Or could they never?
If it’s damned if she does, damned if not, what is the inducement for elite riders to operate transparently, to respond to social licence and change?
Re sets in any professional cultures are more likely to occur with encouragement, than despite condemnation; and this issue requires significant cultural shift, not driving underground.

 

[I'm Dun]

From the notorious video, filmed several years ago?
Objectively, correct: if one wanted to beat anything bloody and bruised, then a flicky, springy, lunge whip probably isn’t the most abusive tool, but she was undoubtedly bullying and tormenting that horse, and fully aware of it, too. Does she intend that now?
I remember initial ‘mea culpa’ from CDJ (maybe fake?), also her stated intention to re establish trust and redeem herself in future. More promising.
Right now, exactly what’s getting whipped, or getting bribed with treats, is unknown. Those who feel duped and disappointed remain suspicious, but actually don’t know - good or bad. CDJ is a very effective rider who has had months to hone empathic techniques towards her recent successes, if she has been so motivated. There is no evidence of further abuse; many detest what she did and will always detest her, but that doesn’t mean that CDJ (or others) are incapable of improvement.
So how should this perpetrator prove rehabilitation?
How could social media doubters be convinced? Or could they never?
If it’s damned if she does, damned if not, what is the inducement for elite riders to operate transparently, to respond to social licence and change?
Re sets in any professional cultures are more likely to occur with encouragement, than despite condemnation; and this issue requires significant cultural shift, not driving underground.

If she'd owned what she did it and been repentance it would be a start. But I don't believe she's using different methods. If she was she would be shouting it from the roof tops about her new kinder way of training the way she pushed her apparently kind way of keeping horses.

 

[GSD Woman]

yone saying that CDJ should be given a second chance after watching the video of her repeatedly whipping a distressed and confused horse should seriously think about what horse welfare means to them. If it was up to me she would get a lifetime ban.

I freely admit that this is a complicated situation. On one hand, she did the ban and such. She doesn't appear to have learned what we were hoping she would.

Would I let her train one of my animals, especially in a board and train set up? Not only NO! but H3ll no!

Prisoners do get a second chance but I assume you wouldn't think it was a good idea to let a child abuser out of prison to work with children

In the USA, child abusers often don't serve a single day. I would love it we could unalive baby rap3rs and all such humans.

I don’t think allowing her to compete again necessarily means we have to forgive her, especially if the narrative she’s pushing isn’t a particularly repentant one. Forgiveness is earned not an automatic right.

This sums it up.

 

[equinerebel]

if one wanted to beat anything bloody and bruised, then a flicky, springy, lunge whip probably isn’t the most abusive tool

A lunge whip can cause considerable pain.

 

[little_critter]

I've ridden a couple of horses that were trained (by men, maybe coincidentally) so that with a 'normal' rider (i.e. me) they would not 'go' if you took up the contact. I wasn't prepared or able to do what was necessary to make them go, so I just used to ride them on a long rein and that was fine by me. I read a little while back that horses in this system are having to make a decision about which stimulus is most salient - i.e., which can they achieve a release from? If the contact is always strong regardless of what they do, then when the leg or whip is applied they will go despite the contact because they can at least relieve that pressure. That seems like the most miserable existence I can think of, almost, and I suspect many ordinary competitors particularly at the lower levels are not prepared to/cannot ride like that (or wouldn't even consider that results are obtained in that way because everyone goes on about lightness and harmony...). Which is great - but those that are prepared to ride like that do well because their horses look like those stressed, exaggerated creatures in paintings and statuary that apparently we should aspire to.

Having said that there is at least one photo posted on this forum by a rider where the horse has a visibly discoloured tongue so this isn't the preserve of the very top ranks and I wonder if more of this sort of evidence would be visible at lower levels/national competitions if people went looking for it - which is actually quite sad if you think that people whose hobby it is and who have close relationships with what's essentially a pet are still potentially causing their horses mental and physical discomfort without really being that conscious of it, because that's what riding in the modern way gets you.

Sorry burnttoast I’m not understanding. This reads as “if I take up a contact they won’t go” which I’m interpreting as “horse will only move on a loose rein”. I’m not understanding what is cruel about training a horse to work on a loose / soft rein?
Maybe I’ve got the wrong end of the stick.

I do agree about horses picking which aid they will / can obey in order to gain relief.

 

[BurntontheoutsideTurkey]

Sorry burnttoast I’m not understanding. This reads as “if I take up a contact they won’t go” which I’m interpreting as “horse will only move on a loose rein”. I’m not understanding what is cruel about training a horse to work on a loose / soft rein?
Maybe I’ve got the wrong end of the stick.

I do agree about horses picking which aid they will / can obey in order to gain relief.

They'd been trained with excessive driving aids (as demonstrated by the spur scars) to make them work into an excessive contact, so excessive driving aids or the threat of them were needed when any contact/frame shortening was asked for.
ETA sorry yes, rereading my earlier post it was a bit ambiguous!

 

[reynold]

New double bridle research backs up the need to give riders choice across the levels

Horses can show conflict behaviours in both double bridles and snaffles during dressage tests – as new research backs up the need to give riders choice. In a study published in Animals, researchers from Aberystwyth University and the University of Portsmouth, looked at the effects of bridle type...

www.horseandhound.co.uk

Report into new UK University research into tests ridden in almost equal numbers in snaffle and double bridles.

Typical fluff responses from both BD and FEI quoted at end of article.