CDJ withdrawn from paris

Exasperated said:
If it’s damned if she does, damned if not, what is the inducement for elite riders to operate transparently, to respond to social licence and change?
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We need to create this inducement. A lot of money to succeed in dressage or any horse sport is from sponsorship and for brands (saddles, tack, grooming, transport etc) to be able to offer sponsorship money that money needs to come from us, from the community. They will also make money from teaching, from producing horses etc but one very easy thing everyone can do is not support any brand that sponsors riders that train in this way. You can also not go to their clinics, don't subscribe to their social media, don't work with the people that work with them. You can make that clear on your own social channels too. Keep commenting on FEI posts, or BD or ITV. The reason they all post on social media is to get you to give them money in some way so withdraw that. It's a drop in the ocean but maybe you'll influence a friend who will influence another friend and on and on it goes. I'm glad there are people writing directly to the FEI too but money is where it will hurt them. If our money didn't matter they wouldn't be advertising to us! If you find someone who trains ethically and fairly then support them! Support them publicly and with your money and your social media views and clicks!

Speaking up in your own social circle is valuable too. Point out hyperflexion, talk about the correct scales of training, push back if you hear or see someone treating a horse unfairly even if it's at an intro training day. One other thing you can do is stop making excuses for her and people like her. Either it's acceptable to treat a horse that way or it isn't. If the problem is "fairness" then push for other riders who have gotten off lightly to be properly punished so it's all equal.
 
equinerebel said:
A lunge whip can cause considerable pain.
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Lucky the horse was wearing leg boots.
Distress caused there was to psychologically browbeat the animal - I am in control, can do what I want, you have to accept it, I (literally) have the whip hand.
If she’d tied him up and set about with a schooling whip, cane, or cat o’ nine tails ( from human penal codes of whipping).....
It was deliberate, casualised, bullying and intimidation, with no place in horse training.
 
Boulty said:
I think the reason most do not wish to forgive & forget is that a large part of CDJs success & popularity came from being seen as different and kinder than a lot of those competing at the same level (largely through her very close association with Carl who has done a lot to promote better ways of keeping and training high level dressage horses) and so there is an extra level of disappointment and the feeling of having been deceived compared to finding out that someone who had long been suspected of abuse (eg Helgstrand) has indeed been doing what they were suspected of.

Realistically I think it would be extremely difficult to enforce a total ban on her competing / training for forever & not in line with how other disciplines deal with similar issues currently but I think team GB should think very very carefully about the appropriateness of ever offering her the chance to represent her country again. (My personal opinion is that this is a door that should remain closed to her & to anyone else found to be promoting abusive training practices).

I don’t think allowing her to compete again necessarily means we have to forgive her, especially if the narrative she’s pushing isn’t a particularly repentant one. Forgiveness is earned not an automatic right.
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100% this ^^^^
 
I'm Dun said:
If she'd owned what she did it and been repentance it would be a start. But I don't believe she's using different methods. If she was she would be shouting it from the roof tops about her new kinder way of training the way she pushed her apparently kind way of keeping horses.
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You may be right, but you don’t know, and if CDJ crowed from the roof about a fresh approach, are you sure you wouldn’t just retort that should always have been the case, no credit for finally doing the right thing; or maybe you would just continue in disbelief?
Makes complete sense to keep her head down, mouth shut, whatever she is doing - which won’t help to change perception and culture, and that’s a big problem.
 
Exasperated said:
Lucky the horse was wearing leg boots.
Distress caused there was to psychologically browbeat the animal - I am in control, can do what I want, you have to accept it, I (literally) have the whip hand.
If she’d tied him up and set about with a schooling whip, cane, or cat o’ nine tails ( from human penal codes of whipping).....
It was deliberate, casualised, bullying and intimidation, with no place in horse training.
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What has wearing boots got to do with it?
 
smolmaus said:
We need to create this inducement. A lot of money to succeed in dressage or any horse sport is from sponsorship and for brands (saddles, tack, grooming, transport etc) to be able to offer sponsorship money that money needs to come from us, from the community. They will also make money from teaching, from producing horses etc but one very easy thing everyone can do is not support any brand that sponsors riders that train in this way. You can also not go to their clinics, don't subscribe to their social media, don't work with the people that work with them. You can make that clear on your own social channels too. Keep commenting on FEI posts, or BD or ITV. The reason they all post on social media is to get you to give them money in some way so withdraw that. It's a drop in the ocean but maybe you'll influence a friend who will influence another friend and on and on it goes. I'm glad there are people writing directly to the FEI too but money is where it will hurt them. If our money didn't matter they wouldn't be advertising to us! If you find someone who trains ethically and fairly then support them! Support them publicly and with your money and your social media views and clicks!

Speaking up in your own social circle is valuable too. Point out hyperflexion, talk about the correct scales of training, push back if you hear or see someone treating a horse unfairly even if it's at an intro training day. One other thing you can do is stop making excuses for her and people like her. Either it's acceptable to treat a horse that way or it isn't. If the problem is "fairness" then push for other riders who have gotten off lightly to be properly punished so it's all equal.
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Sounds like some good ideas, possibly a bit proactive for so many of the people who just ‘follow’ horse sport, or sport generally, for that matter, have to hope enough are sufficiently motivated to do more than moan.
 
So what happens next? She's back out competing now. Would anyone say anything to her at these shows? There is little in the way of voicing your opinion towards her, as most comments are disabled on SM. This forum is an exception but it's unlikely she'll ever see this discussion (although you never know. Night feeds are lonely and many mums doom scroll through the night!!). So if you saw her at a Premier League show, for instance, would you tell her what you thought of her? I imagine if you did, you'd be asked to leave. The show organisers wouldn't want any perceived trouble at their venue. So she never gets to directly hear what thousands of her previous supporters really think of her.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
So what happens next? She's back out competing now. Would anyone say anything to her at these shows? There is little in the way of voicing your opinion towards her, as most comments are disabled on SM. This forum is an exception but it's unlikely she'll ever see this discussion (although you never know. Night feeds are lonely and many mums doom scroll through the night!!). So if you saw her at a Premier League show, for instance, would you tell her what you thought of her? I imagine if you did, you'd be asked to leave. The show organisers wouldn't want any perceived trouble at their venue. So she never gets to directly hear what thousands of her previous supporters really think of her.
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Yes, this. I know people keep going on about how she's been lynched on SM but do they really think she hasn't been told very firmly by everyone around her not to read SM?
 
reynold said:
www.horseandhound.co.uk

New double bridle research backs up the need to give riders choice across the levels

Horses can show conflict behaviours in both double bridles and snaffles during dressage tests – as new research backs up the need to give riders choice. In a study published in Animals, researchers from Aberystwyth University and the University of Portsmouth, looked at the effects of bridle type...
www.horseandhound.co.uk www.horseandhound.co.uk

Report into new UK University research into tests ridden in almost equal numbers in snaffle and double bridles.

Typical fluff responses from both BD and FEI quoted at end of article.
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🤪 there’s serious fluff coming out of university research - full stop!
Employees on research contracts have to routinely produce something, under and post grads similar, sometimes even advertise on here to have their God-awful questionnaires completed.
‘horse-courses’ have minimal training in (or understanding of) investigative techniques from social science, I’m not convinced how solid the pure science is, either, who on earth is supervising these?
Anyway, majority of this stuff really isn’t worth shelf room when you look at how it was conducted - just a click bait sound bite to conclude.
 
Burnttoast said:
I wouldn't be so sure. She still has a lot of support from equestrians (the ones who have normalised this kind of behaviour, which is a lot of them apparently) and that's who sponsors are interested in.
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Agreed.
I was reading a Facebook post made by a Gloucestershire newspaper.
In typical fashion, the comments section is a row between two pretty binary positions - but there is certainly a lot of support for her.
Those supporting CDJ tend to use one or more of the following 'reasons':
1. she's 'done her time'
2. the person filming it is every bit as bad
3. horses are physically aggressive to each other all the time, we can never hurt them as much as they hurt each other
4. there are loads of examples of worse cruelty to horses going on.

1. This makes it sound like some sort of custodial sentence. She was banned from competition, not working with horses, not training. It may have had some impact on an income stream, but just how much of a 'punishment' was the ban?
2. Given that we have very limited information about the person filming the incident, it's hard to say whether or not they are 'as bad' - but to me, the person swinging the whip is the one with direct responsibility.
3. and 4. - this is very much about normalising abusive approaches to training.

Like many here I was a huge fan of CDJ and admired her greatly. I desperately want to be confident that she would never do anything like this ever again - but of course none of us can ever have that reassurance.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
So what happens next? She's back out competing now. Would anyone say anything to her at these shows? There is little in the way of voicing your opinion towards her, as most comments are disabled on SM. This forum is an exception but it's unlikely she'll ever see this discussion (although you never know. Night feeds are lonely and many mums doom scroll through the night!!). So if you saw her at a Premier League show, for instance, would you tell her what you thought of her? I imagine if you did, you'd be asked to leave. The show organisers wouldn't want any perceived trouble at their venue. So she never gets to directly hear what thousands of her previous supporters really think of her.
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You can not attend a show, or get up and leave when she is in the ring. There are non-obtrusive ways to withdraw the semblance of support.

Did this myself at a local show. There was a child beating her horse round a showjumping course, we happened to be in earshot of a steward from the riding club so I clearly said "This is awful, I don't want to watch this, do you?" and we left. Child didn't hear me, she is a child and the responsibility lies with the adults around her, but I did the minimum I could do as a spectator without causing A Fuss.
 
Roasted Chestnuts said:
Her reputation has been destroyed, so yes she was sacked in a sense. Even after being sacked you can get another job doing the same thing in the same industry.

Honestly I just don’t get why people can’t just let others move the heck on and stop beating them with a stick. I just hope all these people holding the stick have never made a mistake or chose the wrong path in their lives. Makes the whole thing seem a bit hypocritical IMO 👀
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Ironically she was the one with the actual stick.

The problem with her behaviour for people who value horse sport is that it weakens the claims equestrianism makes to the general public that it is respecting horse welfare and deserves to be taken seriously and allowed to continue in its current form, while in addition turning ethical people away from horse sport, leaving just those who are fine with poor welfare, which in turn weakens equestrianism even further.

For me I just don't want horse abusers around horses so no, not inclined to give her my blessing.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
So if you saw her at a Premier League show, for instance, would you tell her what you thought of her?
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Unfortunately it’s pretty frowned upon in polite society to tell people what you really think of them so no, like the many other folk I have fairly negative opinions of I would not say anything to her.

It’s unlikely I would be at an event where she was riding but if I was I may use her slot for a toilet break or to check up on H&H etc.
I would also boycott her sponsors and make sure to continue the discussion of abusive training methods and how unacceptable it is among friends or here because at the end of the day it’s the horse that suffers and they don’t get a voice when their distress is so easily ignored like in the video of CDJ.

I really struggle to have any sympathy for people who’s deliberately abusing/abused animals and I’m not sorry to say that I’m not forgiving them because other folk think they served their “punishment”
 
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Exasperated said:
🤪 there’s serious fluff coming out of university research - full stop!
Employees on research contracts have to routinely produce something, under and post grads similar, sometimes even advertise on here to have their God-awful questionnaires completed.
‘horse-courses’ have minimal training in (or understanding of) investigative techniques from social science, I’m not convinced how solid the pure science is, either, who on earth is supervising these?
Anyway, majority of this stuff really isn’t worth shelf room when you look at how it was conducted - just a click bait sound bite to conclude.
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The paper is open access and is actually pretty heavy on the statistical analysis. I'm not a statistics person myself, but I do have some familiarity as the analysis methods used in this paper are actually very similar to the methods my partner is using in his research on bridge behaviour. It's not very fluffy at all. I'm really impressed with the number of variables, the blind control and the sheer volume of data that has been compiled. I read about 60% before my brain got fried 😂

This part is particularly interesting
The prevalence of conflict behaviour in this study is higher than previously reported [7,8,9,10]. In some studies, conflict behaviour ethograms score the overall severity of the performance of behaviour (e.g., [10]) whereas other ethogram studies require a specific length of time for a behaviour to be performed before it is recorded (e.g., [9]). These approaches reduce the opportunity for appropriate statistical analysis of different variable effects but also tend to underestimate the total performance of the behaviour. The approach taken here of classifying some conflict behaviours as both events and continuous states is considered to provide a more complete quantification of the behaviour in this respect.
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They have seen the limitations of previous ethogram studies and used more complex modelling methods to improve on it and even attempt to filter confounding factors such as the experience level of the horse and rider combination. It is remarkably similar to the approach taken for structural analysis. If my OH wasn't in the middle of a funding application I would ask him to take a look!
 
PoppyAnderson said:
So what happens next? She's back out competing now. Would anyone say anything to her at these shows? There is little in the way of voicing your opinion towards her, as most comments are disabled on SM. This forum is an exception but it's unlikely she'll ever see this discussion (although you never know. Night feeds are lonely and many mums doom scroll through the night!!). So if you saw her at a Premier League show, for instance, would you tell her what you thought of her? I imagine if you did, you'd be asked to leave. The show organisers wouldn't want any perceived trouble at their venue. So she never gets to directly hear what thousands of her previous supporters really think of her.
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I'll be honest - I would be focusing on my own horse and my own competition. I very nearly entered the AM classes that she won on Sunday (but went to watch cricket instead!) and it's very likely that I will be up against her at that venue at some point (I have been in the past). I am disgusted at her behaviour but frankly if I say something, it will probably stress me out more than it would stress her out...not to mention make me unwelcome at my closest venue as I am pretty sure which side of the fence the venue owners will be on.

Sorry if that makes me a selfish coward, but I ride to de-stress from my high pressure job where I deal with enough 'people' problems - I want to enjoy my own dressage journey and my lovely loan horse.
 
Burnttoast said:
Please tell me he's researching inter-player conflict in card games or sentient bridges rampaging around the countryside? No? 🥲😆😂
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If only!! For every paper he writes I also read and copy-edit and these would be just slightly more interesting topics that "what motorway bridge do when warm" 😂
 
Roasted Chestnuts said:
Her reputation has been destroyed, so yes she was sacked in a sense. Even after being sacked you can get another job doing the same thing in the same industry.

Honestly I just don’t get why people can’t just let others move the heck on and stop beating them with a stick. I just hope all these people holding the stick have never made a mistake or chose the wrong path in their lives. Makes the whole thing seem a bit hypocritical IMO 👀
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I have made monumental mistakes in my life. But I have never whipped a horse.

I am assuming from your forgiving nature that you would apply the same forgiveness to child abusers?
 
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