equinerebel
Well-Known Member
Context is good, but I don't think we need anymore here. What context would change or add to what happened?
CDJ withdrawn from paris
- Thread starter Zoeypxo
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EventingMum
Well-Known Member
I have seen the Facebook posts are now starting comparing CDJ to Caroline Flack and the Be Kind comments are emerging. I am sure she is feeling terrible in terms of what this has done to her career at this moment in time but anyone in a position like her has to take responsibility for their actions. To her credit she held her hands up immediately but would she have done had the video not been released?
Personally, I can't see her as scapegoat, it's pretty certainly a fact that worse does go on but that doesn't mitigate anything. Anyone coaching or riding has a duty of care to the horse first and foremost and this sets equestrianism apart from other sports. A horse doesn't have the choice to not compete and has limit ways of expressing it's emotions and we must be mindful of this at all times. CDJ's personality and personal feelings aside, her actions were not acceptable in this day and age.
My biggest hope is that we move forward from this and the focus shifts from her personally to training methods in general and we use it as a catalyst for change across all forms of equestrianism, Each and everyone of us has to be accountable for our actions whatever our role is and we have to be brave enough to call out those who fall short regardless of their status. We must educate those entering our sport and find a way of ensuring principles are upheld at all levels so no horse suffers due to the win at all costs mentality. Now is the time for serious action, we have to be beyond reproach, this is the only way our sport will have a future and we will continue to have the privilege of riding horses.
Personally, I can't see her as scapegoat, it's pretty certainly a fact that worse does go on but that doesn't mitigate anything. Anyone coaching or riding has a duty of care to the horse first and foremost and this sets equestrianism apart from other sports. A horse doesn't have the choice to not compete and has limit ways of expressing it's emotions and we must be mindful of this at all times. CDJ's personality and personal feelings aside, her actions were not acceptable in this day and age.
My biggest hope is that we move forward from this and the focus shifts from her personally to training methods in general and we use it as a catalyst for change across all forms of equestrianism, Each and everyone of us has to be accountable for our actions whatever our role is and we have to be brave enough to call out those who fall short regardless of their status. We must educate those entering our sport and find a way of ensuring principles are upheld at all levels so no horse suffers due to the win at all costs mentality. Now is the time for serious action, we have to be beyond reproach, this is the only way our sport will have a future and we will continue to have the privilege of riding horses.
equinerebel
Well-Known Member
I agree in principal, I just think there's no way this specific one would have gone any differently. Her actions were that uncalled for, any apology would fall flat to most of us.
PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
There's no context in which hitting a horse being ridden by a minor with the lash of a lunge whip is OK.
Ditchjumper2
Well-Known Member
I never said there was. I'd be interested to see it that's all. Presumably rest of lesson was normal, so what sparked this incident etc. Whilst I don't condone what she did it I do feel it would be good to see thats all. Most things when taken taken out of context can appear different. Like I say not defending her but equally would be interest to see it. One assumes rest of lesson was absolutely fine.
reynold
Well-Known Member
Charlotte Dujardin ‘universally condemned’ by GB team-mate and mentor Carl Hester
British Olympic star seen on video striking a horse 24 times ‘like elephant in the circus’
www.telegraph.co.uk
Carl Hester a signatory to a letter from the IDRC (International Dressage Riders Club) condemning CDJ.
Also signed by Isabell Werth, of Germany, Kyra Kyrklund, Hans Peter Minderhout, of the Netherlands, and Catherine Haddad, of the USA
equinerebel
Well-Known Member
Very interesting. Can't be an easy time for him.Charlotte Dujardin ‘universally condemned’ by GB team-mate and mentor Carl Hester
British Olympic star seen on video striking a horse 24 times ‘like elephant in the circus’
Carl Hester a signatory to a letter from the IDRC (International Dressage Riders Club) condemning CDJ.
Also signed by Isabell Werth, of Germany, Kyra Kyrklund, Hans Peter Minderhout, of the Netherlands, and Catherine Haddad, of the USA
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
B00ger trying to put this incident into context.
There is never a correct context in which a trainer repeatedly whacks a horse that is being ridden with a lunge whip to increase activity. It’s spectacularly bad horsemanship that will achieve nothing, the type of action that a jumped up know nothing might resort to as a short cut.
It’s bad on every level.
There is never a correct context in which a trainer repeatedly whacks a horse that is being ridden with a lunge whip to increase activity. It’s spectacularly bad horsemanship that will achieve nothing, the type of action that a jumped up know nothing might resort to as a short cut.
It’s bad on every level.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Good. I'd expect that from him.Charlotte Dujardin ‘universally condemned’ by GB team-mate and mentor Carl Hester
British Olympic star seen on video striking a horse 24 times ‘like elephant in the circus’
Carl Hester a signatory to a letter from the IDRC (International Dressage Riders Club) condemning CDJ.
Also signed by Isabell Werth, of Germany, Kyra Kyrklund, Hans Peter Minderhout, of the Netherlands, and Catherine Haddad, of the USA
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
I feel really sorry for Carl, he must be upset that someone he has nurtured should do something so awful
U.N.Owen
Well-Known Member
Interesting from some of the names on there with videos that are around of their trainingCharlotte Dujardin ‘universally condemned’ by GB team-mate and mentor Carl Hester
British Olympic star seen on video striking a horse 24 times ‘like elephant in the circus’
Carl Hester a signatory to a letter from the IDRC (International Dressage Riders Club) condemning CDJ.
Also signed by Isabell Werth, of Germany, Kyra Kyrklund, Hans Peter Minderhout, of the Netherlands, and Catherine Haddad, of the USA
AmyMay
Situation normal
Yes, I’d be interested too.
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
I think Carl had to move quickly to distance himself from it - I'd imagine he will be interviewed in the investigation as don't they share a yard - be interested to know if he's ever seen anything going on. She was his protege and they shared a yard so of course questions will be asked (NOT saying he does anything!!) You then also have to look at the methods of her students she herself has trained - one notable in particular (again NOT saying said person is but the question must be asked)
A grey area is all her medals and accomplishments, I can only imagine she will be able to keep them as no one will know how they were achieved
A grey area is all her medals and accomplishments, I can only imagine she will be able to keep them as no one will know how they were achieved
pistolpete
Well-Known Member
I think it’s going to be very emotional for the GB team now she’s gone. Incredibly difficult to have the composure and calm they need. Done them no favours at all.
AmyMay
Situation normal
I can see no reason why Carl Hester would be interviewed. It had absolutely nothing to do with him.
Crazy_cat_lady
Well-Known Member
To ascertain the scale of these "methods" e.g. did he see her at any point on their yard using them etc. As a potential witness
DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
Call me naiive but I don't believe that this is a move from Carl. Signing that must have been unbelievably tough for him, and I should think that the decision to do so was more born out of principle than self-preservation.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Interesting.
DirectorFury
Well-Known Member
the irony!The #bekind crew are the worst, they just use it as a socially acceptable shorthand for "shut up, woman, you're saying things I don't like". It's used to silence people and to pressure them to ignore bad behaviour, and has very strong misogynistic undertones.
Ceifer
Well-Known Member
The thing with Caroline Flack is yes, it was incredibly sad she took her own life.
She had mental health problems that had been apparent since her teens and early career that she battled.
Of course the media spotlight on what she did and public opinion didn’t help but it doesn’t change the fact she assaulted someone pretty seriously because she thought he was cheating on her.
She had mental health problems that had been apparent since her teens and early career that she battled.
Of course the media spotlight on what she did and public opinion didn’t help but it doesn’t change the fact she assaulted someone pretty seriously because she thought he was cheating on her.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Erm, he took her on as a young working pupil and supported and encouraged her for many years whilst training her and giving her really good horses to ride. Of course the antics of his former protégée reflect on him.
We’d all like to believe that CDJ did not learn this way of teaching/training from her former mentor. The spotlight is on Carl, like it or not.
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
Interesting combination of names alongside the words "ethical training" ...
Ditchjumper2
Well-Known Member
And for the 3rd time I never said I was condoning her actions! However context is everything I am sorry if you don't grasp that
Example. Someone puts up a picture of you aggressively restraining your horse yanking or pulling on it's mouth. You look awful. But rest of video shows you trying to stop your horse escaping on to a main road. In those circumstances the end justifies the means. You wouldn't just pat it and say there there don't bugger off. You'd do what you could to prevent it happening.
It is no way the same...but it does explain the rational behind context...that's all.
I AM NOT MAKING EXCUSES FOR HER. SHE WAS WRONG I AGREE.
Just be interested to see the whole lesson.
IrishMilo
Well-Known Member
I've only watched the video twice, once yesterday and again just now. I feel repulsed by it. To be able to strike an animal like that not just once, but repeatedly, in the light of day and as a training method rather than a heat of the moment loss of temper is abhorrent.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
By that logic every teacher of every miscreant should be held liable for whatever they get up to?
HollyWoozle
Well-Known Member
Whilst it may be interesting to find out, I don't see what difference the timing of the video, the name of the rider or the context of what happened (ie. the rest of the lesson) should, can or will make to its content. The content is clear, damning and unacceptable.
I think this is a terrible "day" for equestrians and the sport but perhaps a good "day" for horses, at least I hope so. I too question whether we should be using horses in top sport, it seems the lure of money and prestige is simply irresistible to humans. There will always be bad apples at every level and in every discipline but perhaps this shock from a household name will kickstart a change. I hope that aspiring riders will now know, without any question, that training methods like this are unacceptable and will feel more empowered to avoid them and speak out about them. Having said that, I've already seen multiple posts from people defending her actions and to anybody saying "I've seen a lot worse", since when does that ever excuse anything? Does that mean we shouldn't bother being angry about it? OR maybe we should stop and think that the fact so many people have apparently seen worse, or even done worse themselves, is the whole problem with this sport and why we have to change.
I continue to feel sad and disappointed, I think also because I feel complicit. I remember watching CDJ in the Olympics and being in awe, cheering her on, believing (no doubt partly because I wanted to) that her achievements showed this could be done without cruelty and force. Now I find myself questioning everything, including all my own decisions with horses and the ethics of riding in general, but I hope to learn from it.
I think this is a terrible "day" for equestrians and the sport but perhaps a good "day" for horses, at least I hope so. I too question whether we should be using horses in top sport, it seems the lure of money and prestige is simply irresistible to humans. There will always be bad apples at every level and in every discipline but perhaps this shock from a household name will kickstart a change. I hope that aspiring riders will now know, without any question, that training methods like this are unacceptable and will feel more empowered to avoid them and speak out about them. Having said that, I've already seen multiple posts from people defending her actions and to anybody saying "I've seen a lot worse", since when does that ever excuse anything? Does that mean we shouldn't bother being angry about it? OR maybe we should stop and think that the fact so many people have apparently seen worse, or even done worse themselves, is the whole problem with this sport and why we have to change.
I continue to feel sad and disappointed, I think also because I feel complicit. I remember watching CDJ in the Olympics and being in awe, cheering her on, believing (no doubt partly because I wanted to) that her achievements showed this could be done without cruelty and force. Now I find myself questioning everything, including all my own decisions with horses and the ethics of riding in general, but I hope to learn from it.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
No, not the same. Teachers teach many different pupils.
Carl and Charlotte worked so closely together on his yard for so long that they are still very much linked together in the public’s mind. Like it or not.
I don’t want to think ill of Carl, either.
teddy_
Well-Known Member
Quite, and also assumes Charlotte has not evolved her own methods and ideologies since spreading her wings and likely needing less input from her mentor.
Abacus
Well-Known Member
That is stretching the logic. People do learn from examples and mentors of course. And while not holding him liable, it is true that they are so closely and publicly associated that it is possible that the public wonder whether his methods are similar.
In this case he could be interviewed, not as to his own involvement but as to whether he had ever seen her behave in a similar way in his long association with her. That is, if the investigation covers her wider training regime and not just this incident.
little_critter
Well-Known Member
I'm curious to know how seeing the rest of the video would change what she's done.
Would it make it all better if she gave the horse a hug afterwards?
I understand the moment in time argument when referring to a photo or a short video clip where the horse may have hyperflexed itself and it looks like the rider is riding in rollkur.
However the CDJ video is long enough and clear enough that there can be no mistaking the intent of the use of the whip. Nothing she does before or after that (and nothing the horse or rider may or may not have done) could justify that purposeful response from her.