Ifmpw
Well-Known Member
Does she own any of her own horses though or are the all provided by sponsors ?
CDJ withdrawn from paris
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pistolpete
Well-Known Member
I’ve not really commented and have thought long and hard about it all. CDJ’s biggest crime is being in the public domain as an advocate for ethical training. If we then find out she’s not what we thought we feel cheated on. I think that’s one part of it.
Then there’s the undoubted animal abuse. That’s another part. Then there’s the speaking up in front of an Olympian who abuses you or your animal. That’s another part!
Then there’s the timing which I think is genius if your intention is to highlight abuse behind the scenes of the equestrian world.
Then there’s the inevitable trauma to the individual for the circus caused by all this attention.
It’s so many things. I hope horses are valued and treated better as a result. That’s my main hope.
Then there’s the undoubted animal abuse. That’s another part. Then there’s the speaking up in front of an Olympian who abuses you or your animal. That’s another part!
Then there’s the timing which I think is genius if your intention is to highlight abuse behind the scenes of the equestrian world.
Then there’s the inevitable trauma to the individual for the circus caused by all this attention.
It’s so many things. I hope horses are valued and treated better as a result. That’s my main hope.
Ifmpw
Well-Known Member
But as a group we have condemned the treatment of big lick horses, Arab showing and endurance -we have long championed for change.
For me its the fact she had the audacity to be a Brooke celebrant and was doing this and possibly worse at home - she really has got some neck on her.
I am angry that she has duped us
I am angry for the calculated way she had duped us
I am angry that she thinks this was the right thing to do
Someone posted up above, she wasn't sorry when we didn't know about this and i agree
I hope that others do speak out - the poor horses couldn't.
minesadouble
Well-Known Member
I am a yard owner and no it would not.
We have had someone bring a 3 year old ex racehorse over from Ireland as a mount for their 12 year old daughter and proceed to ask, when shown where the hay and straw was kept, "which one does it sleep on and which one does it eat?"
We have had an adult male livery assault a 15 year old girl.
We have had liveries who have stolen rugs from a horse's back.
We have had a livery complain that a colicing horse was in the lunge pen under veterinary advice when their spoilt brat of a daughter wanted to lunge her pony.
All issues that concern me more than CJDs actions let alone others opinion of them.
Believe me someone posting on Social Media in support of CJD is the least of a YO worries!
reynold
Well-Known Member
From the Telegraph article detailing the legal side of the Dutch complainant's case. He is going down the line of the FEI welfare requirements to report any 'abuse' very quickly after it takes place.
---------------------------------
He then referenced FEI regulations stating reports of potential cruelty should be reported “without delay”. “This obligation to file a protest ‘without delay’ is precisely aimed at preventing animal suffering,” he adds. “Failure by the complaining client to comply with this reporting obligation in a timely manner may result in the alleged complaint of horse abuse against Charlotte Dujardin being declared inadmissible or the sanctions to be imposed remaining limited.
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The Lucy Higginson Telegraph article she talks about the impact of the CDJ case on Olympic particpation, stating a lot that has been discussed here already.
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Further, keeping equestrian sports – which are costly to run, struggle with diversity and are largely contested by a narrow pool of nations – in the Games remains an ongoing challenge
-----------------------------------
She also mentions the horse welfare charters that have been brought in over here by British Equestrian
Also for completeness is the link to the WHW statement on CDJ issue. It is a brief amount and reflects what Roly Owers said in a SKYNews interview yesterday afternoon which was very balanced.
www.worldhorsewelfare.org
---------------------------------
He then referenced FEI regulations stating reports of potential cruelty should be reported “without delay”. “This obligation to file a protest ‘without delay’ is precisely aimed at preventing animal suffering,” he adds. “Failure by the complaining client to comply with this reporting obligation in a timely manner may result in the alleged complaint of horse abuse against Charlotte Dujardin being declared inadmissible or the sanctions to be imposed remaining limited.
----------------------------------------
The Lucy Higginson Telegraph article she talks about the impact of the CDJ case on Olympic particpation, stating a lot that has been discussed here already.
----------------------------------
Further, keeping equestrian sports – which are costly to run, struggle with diversity and are largely contested by a narrow pool of nations – in the Games remains an ongoing challenge
-----------------------------------
She also mentions the horse welfare charters that have been brought in over here by British Equestrian
Also for completeness is the link to the WHW statement on CDJ issue. It is a brief amount and reflects what Roly Owers said in a SKYNews interview yesterday afternoon which was very balanced.
World Horse Welfare statement in response to Charlotte Dujardin's provisional suspension - World Horse Welfare
Equine welfare charity World Horse Welfare release statement in response to Charlotte Dujardin's provisional suspension.
piebaldproblems
Well-Known Member
Thank you @reynold
sbloom
Well-Known Member
most top level horses are getting a significant amount of intervention
The system breaks horses, even maybe twenty years ago the average life expectancy for a sport horse in Germans was 7 years. Is it any better than racing? At least most of their early retirees do get rehomed, though I think we underestimate just how much physical and behavioural/emotional damage they really have. Rehabbing for 6 weeks in a Pessoa ain't helping. We have an absolute epidemic of lameness that can be medicated to the nth degree while not contravening rules. This HAS to be looked at as we go forwards, and the defence is NOT that we owe these horses comfort and pain relief therefore it's ethical. It might be ethical for each horse, at the time, but systemically it is horrific and will give PETA so much ammo if they really understood what passes for normal in equestrian sport.
Do we think she's an aberration? That there are no other hypocrites out there? We are all being duped and people like me get a kicking when we indicate the signs which to us mean the rider is using the horse as a tool. We do see the not so rare chink showing the dark side but it seems so many find it easier just to see the nicey nicey stuff. The industry stinks, it makes all this absolutely endemic.
I know I'm at the fluffy end of things compared to so many, but riding horses in compression is harmful to them, emotionally and physically, yet it is the 100% accepted modern way of training, and probably over 90% of any horse being competed in any sport is compressed at the front end to their detriment. I know it's ridiculously ambitious, and too high a bar, sadly, but we need a BIG shift towards understanding what horses really need to stay sound and happy. We have barely chipped at the edges, and I give kudos to Charlotte for her small part in that, but it's a drop in the ocean and now seen clearly for what it was, lip service, at least in part. There's still a fundamental misunderstanding about how best we can minimise ridden physical forces affecting the horse negatively, as well as day to day management and its issues. This is in part because it's easier than actually dealing with the "should we be riding them, if so how is the best possible way to mitigate harm?" question which will make all competitive riders, and many non competitive, stop short if they were really to think about it.
If I've ever said anything negative, no matter how carefully couched, about CDJ or CH I get shot down in flames. I was shot down in flames when I similarly said things about Anky, Isabel et al back in the day, or and still am about signs a horse is on the forehand/otherwise moving in compensation, even at GP. I'm yelled at about saying how harmful leaning back is, similarly about strong contacts, gripping legs, nagging aiding. When I posted Lockie Phillip's posts yesterday one person accused him of plagiarism, many said that we should "put up" (ie compete with kind training) or "shut up", effectively, and yes, plenty of obfuscation from probably very caring people about the worse ills that are out there, but role models matter.
I'm trying not to yell at my OH as the Strictly revelations unfold (and I do think those played a part in the timing of this release, as this happened in the UK even though the lawyer is Dutch). We've always loved Gio and my OHs immediate reaction to Amanda Abington was extremely negative whereas I was very much of the opinion "believe the victim" or at least keep space for it to be true. He's not made any comment on the fact that it's looking highly likely he was wrong, yet she's been, and is still being, bombarded by death threats (not remotely by him I hasten to add!!).
The more sensitive amongst us are the canaries in the coal mine, and I'm utterly fed up with them (us?) being ignored.
As per she could just POSSIBLY emerge from this, after a suitable period of contemplation, and absolute hero for changing the outlook of many towards how we treat horses. There are more gamekeepers turned poachers (or is it the other way around?!) out there than we realise, and they can contribute more in some cases, or rather be more effective than those who have long campaigned for things.
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Ifmpw
Well-Known Member
Even if the complaint is thrown out by the FEI, the truth is thankfully out in the public domain.From the Telegraph article detailing the legal side of the Dutch complainant's case. He is going down the line of the FEI welfare requirements to report any 'abuse' very quickly after it takes place.
---------------------------------
He then referenced FEI regulations stating reports of potential cruelty should be reported “without delay”. “This obligation to file a protest ‘without delay’ is precisely aimed at preventing animal suffering,” he adds. “Failure by the complaining client to comply with this reporting obligation in a timely manner may result in the alleged complaint of horse abuse against Charlotte Dujardin being declared inadmissible or the sanctions to be imposed remaining limited.
----------------------------------------
The Lucy Higginson Telegraph article she talks about the impact of the CDJ case on Olympic particpation, stating a lot that has been discussed here already.
----------------------------------
Further, keeping equestrian sports – which are costly to run, struggle with diversity and are largely contested by a narrow pool of nations – in the Games remains an ongoing challenge
-----------------------------------
She also mentions the horse welfare charters that have been brought in over here by British Equestrian
Also for completeness is the link to the WHW statement on CDJ issue. It is a brief amount and reflects what Roly Owers said in a SKYNews interview yesterday afternoon which was very balanced.
World Horse Welfare statement in response to Charlotte Dujardin's provisional suspension - World Horse Welfare
Equine welfare charity World Horse Welfare release statement in response to Charlotte Dujardin's provisional suspension.
But what a pathetic measure to try and say - I have been caught out brutalizing's a horse, but because folk were scared at the time, and it was 2 years ago, then I should be allowed to get away with it.
Ifmpw
Well-Known Member
Lets wait and see what else comes out, but right here and right now in order to answer your first question - is she an aberration ? then yes, especially as she has long held us to believe she was an ambassador for the respect and kindness of her training. That is what is leading the vitriol - some other professional horse riders - whilst their would have been an outcry - we in truth would have not been surprised. For CDJ to be the one brutalizing's a horse, and then we are already talking about forgiveness well words just fail me.
Can someone please tell me how you apologize to a horse ? whom is probably now an nightmare to be lunged, approached by a person on the ground, scared of going in a school
Miss_Millie
Well-Known Member
This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I'm quite disappointed by this part of Pammy Hutton's response:
'If riding stops; horses are unnecessary; too expensive to keep for pets. Let the cull begin.'
I don't actually think that this is true, I think that there are many people who care about their horses deeply to the point that it goes beyond riding. I know lots of people with non-ridden horses and ponies who don't treat or view them any differently than their ridden steeds, they get a lot out of joy out of caring for them and doing groundwork activities, just watching them being horses.
I think that anyone who would immediately kill their horse when they are no longer 'useful' is part of the problem. Yes I know that horses are very expensive to keep, but so are many other animals, especially when they reach old age and need medications and extra vet care. Taking on that responsibility is a choice as soon as you purchase an animal and become their guardian.
I would argue that people who would cull their horses if they couldn't ride them anymore, didn't deserve them in the first place.
'If riding stops; horses are unnecessary; too expensive to keep for pets. Let the cull begin.'
I don't actually think that this is true, I think that there are many people who care about their horses deeply to the point that it goes beyond riding. I know lots of people with non-ridden horses and ponies who don't treat or view them any differently than their ridden steeds, they get a lot out of joy out of caring for them and doing groundwork activities, just watching them being horses.
I think that anyone who would immediately kill their horse when they are no longer 'useful' is part of the problem. Yes I know that horses are very expensive to keep, but so are many other animals, especially when they reach old age and need medications and extra vet care. Taking on that responsibility is a choice as soon as you purchase an animal and become their guardian.
I would argue that people who would cull their horses if they couldn't ride them anymore, didn't deserve them in the first place.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
A lot of dogs competing in various sports, including my 2, have regular physio/hydro sessions, sometimes they will show a slight tweak which can be resolved ,other times they are just maintenance visits. So that wouldn't be any sort of red flag for me.
Goldie's mum
Well-Known Member
During this program on Horse and Country TV, CDJ stops a man who is "teaching his horse to dance" by repeatedly hitting it's hind legs . She gets out her phone to show him Valegro "dancing". In a mixture of pidgin English and sign language she tells him this is her and that it is possible to train kindly.
I find myself hoping that man has no TV.
I find myself hoping that man has no TV.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Sure, maybe she's a little "above" most of the others in terms of her "kindness profile" but they ALL plead they love the horse and, because they're locked in a system that has other priorities, they have failed to see that almost all of what they do is, to some level, unkind to the horse.
That is not what we are talking about, this is about repeatedly injecting horses to keep them sound, a literal epidemic of hocks, suspensories, SI, KS, remedial shoeing "just because". So we partake in a sport, and in order to do that we subject our horses to treatments again and again that they would almost certainly not need if they were bred and trained in a way that didn't simply serve the money of top sport.
Imagine if, in a couple of years time, we saw something showing work like this from her (it just stuck in my mind yesterday, there are probably much more applicable posts):
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
A question I have been pondering…
Let us assume (for the sake of argument) that her statement is correct. That she had a one off misjudgement and this was a one off bad day(we have all had bad days and done stuff we ain’t to proud of)
What would
A) the reaction from the press etc if she had ‘fessed up then and used it as example of what shouldn’t be done?
And
B) would you personally have thought?
Let us assume (for the sake of argument) that her statement is correct. That she had a one off misjudgement and this was a one off bad day(we have all had bad days and done stuff we ain’t to proud of)
What would
A) the reaction from the press etc if she had ‘fessed up then and used it as example of what shouldn’t be done?
And
B) would you personally have thought?
WrongLeg
Well-Known Member
Those who competed with Charlotte when she showed (HOYS/ RIHS/ Ponies UK) know that has had a talent for rubbing people up the wrong way long before she had any talent for dressage.
That may be the reason for the witch-hunt.
As for her training methods, they don’t look like they are working in the video. The horse doesn’t understand what is being asked of it.
That may be the reason for the witch-hunt.
As for her training methods, they don’t look like they are working in the video. The horse doesn’t understand what is being asked of it.
equinerebel
Well-Known Member
It's emotive language used because their way of training, and indeed their livelihood, is under threat. My non-ridden horse hasn't, and won't, be sold or pts just because I don't throw a saddle on her back and jump fences anymore.
In the same vein, I absolutely hate the term "dancing" to refer to horses being forced to preform unnatural movements, often under immense stress and strain.
JBM
Well-Known Member
I think this is different. We have all had bad days. But hitting a horse THAT many times..I don’t think she felt a bit bad about it.
It was calculated. You don’t go to that degree of abuse in front of other people because you’ve done it once.
Even if she had fessed up it wouldn’t have made it better I don’t think. It’s too much
Teaselmeg
Well-Known Member
I love this sbloom, for so long how we train horses has been accepted and anyone who puts their head above the parapet and says anything about a training method gets shot down. 'The dressage whip is an extension of your arm' no it's not, its a threat to the horse, as is the lunge whip ( if used in its normal manner, not as per CD). Dog training which I'm more involved in than horses these days is the same, so many people see no harm in yanking on a lead, shutting a dog in a crate etc because they've always done it.
The vitriol aimed at Amanda Abington is abhorrent, just because you like the male dancer, doesn't mean her complaint was not valid, I feel incredibly sorry for her.
This is a serious wake up call for all equestrian sports, do better, take a step back and think about how you train and treat your horses.
Bobthecob15
Well-Known Member
It’s all so sad and disturbing, I have a very sad and upset 9yr old that adored Charlotte, she’s always looked up to her and idolised her. she can’t believe it. What do you say to a child to even begin to explain it? 
equinerebel
Well-Known Member
I can't answer because I don't believe her or anyone claiming that. Beating a horse is never a "misjudgement" or a symptom of a bad day. It's unacceptable, always. I've certainly behaved in ways I'm not always proud of, but I've never beaten a horse on it's legs repeatedly.
Ifmpw
Well-Known Member
so if that is the story being told, there was
no anger, no marching round as if to prove a point
no shouting at the rider/horse
a horse absolutely knackered
and the most tell of all, CDJ wanting something better to hit a horse with
sbloom
Well-Known Member
It’s all so sad and disturbing, I have a very sad and upset 9yr old that adored Charlotte, she’s always looked up to her and idolised her. she can’t believe it. What do you say to a child to even begin to explain it?
Find more classical/kind role models away from competitive equestrian sport? Have her lusting after being like Anya Beran, Bettina Biolik, Lockie Phillips, perhaps even look at Think Like a Pony and Eat Sleep Ride, and there are probably others. Anyone WAY up on a pedestal is likely to fall, at some point, and that is a life lesson. Look beyond the bling and the PR.
Bobthecob15
Well-Known Member
Thank you I will definitely look into these riders
SAS56
Well-Known Member
Something I have been thinking about is the idea that just because someone is a successful competitor this automatically equates to being a good teacher/trainer. Some have it, some do not - one does not mean the other all the time.
I am still slightly annoyed at the way CDJ was turned out to give a lesson - jeans, trainers, no hat and yet using a lunge whip on a large powerful horse from the ground.
Interesting to hear that the sponsor/filmer was an ex student of Charlotte and had paid for the lesson.
I am still slightly annoyed at the way CDJ was turned out to give a lesson - jeans, trainers, no hat and yet using a lunge whip on a large powerful horse from the ground.
Interesting to hear that the sponsor/filmer was an ex student of Charlotte and had paid for the lesson.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
I had wondered if she’d have gotten a better reaction just getting on the horse, rather than what she was doing
MiJodsR2BlinkinTite
Well-Known Member
^^^ This is what I fear; already on the Daily Mail thread there have been "all horse riders are the same" remarks, which I have replied to. To coin a phrase, we ain't seen nuffin yet". I am very much afraid there is going to be a huge backlash on account of CDJ's actions.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Thank you I will definitely look into these riders
More about training than riding, and that also is key. How we relate to horses is what underlies everything, and IMO top competitive riders will always be under more pressure to perform and win (their definition of success) than they are under pressure to absolutely do the right thing by the horse, more the systems fault than theirs. Most of them would poo poo the more ethical ways of doing things as "not understanding horses". It's about the relationship, the connection, the working WITH the horse instead of ON their own goals.
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
Given the few answers here then confessing to doing wrong is the worst thing someone can do because the way she did it she might have got away with it …
I’m not saying I believe what she said - I think I have been quite vocal that I don’t but if no credit is given for telling on yourself then why would anyone ever do so. Thus the not sorry then only sorry now message doesn’t really hold up —
I’m not saying I believe what she said - I think I have been quite vocal that I don’t but if no credit is given for telling on yourself then why would anyone ever do so. Thus the not sorry then only sorry now message doesn’t really hold up —
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Or realising that the horse wasn't ready for the work and finding other exercises, even working from the ground, that would develop the horse to help him do better in a month or two's time. Thinking we can only fix things by (more and more) aiding is how we get into this mess.
JFTDWS
Well-Known Member
I have about as much respect for PH as I had for CDJ before this week - which is to say, not a lot. She isn’t someone who I would consider progressive in terms of horse welfare. I too was disappointed- though not surprised - by her responses to this situation.