CDJ withdrawn from paris

[AmyMay]

To ascertain the scale of these "methods" e.g. did he see her at any point on their yard using them etc. As a potential witness

The investigation will be about the incident filmed. Nothing else.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Charlotte Dujardin ‘universally condemned’ by GB team-mate and mentor Carl Hester

British Olympic star seen on video striking a horse 24 times ‘like elephant in the circus’

www.telegraph.co.uk

Carl Hester a signatory to a letter from the IDRC (International Dressage Riders Club) condemning CDJ.

Also signed by Isabell Werth, of Germany, Kyra Kyrklund, Hans Peter Minderhout, of the Netherlands, and Catherine Haddad, of the USA

Cannot read the letter due to the paywall but oh the irony of a signature from Isabell Werth and her squeaky clean welfare record, she is in no position to condemn anyone.

 

[Cortez]

That is stretching the logic. People do learn from examples and mentors of course. And while not holding him liable, it is true that they are so closely and publicly associated that it is possible that the public wonder whether his methods are similar.

In this case he could be interviewed, not as to his own involvement but as to whether he had ever seen her behave in a similar way in his long association with her. That is, if the investigation covers her wider training regime and not just this incident.

By putting his name to the letter released he is very firmly stating that he does NOT use or condone the methods shown being used by Charlotte Dujardin. That is the entire point.

 

[Abacus]

By putting his name to the letter released he is very firmly stating that he does NOT use or condone the methods shown being used by Charlotte Dujardin. That is the entire point.

The question was about whether he might be interviewed, and his signing that letter doesn't mean he won't be, if the FEI think it relevant.

 

[Fellewell]

The only way to get instant results in training is to cut corners, but that wont be ingrained, it will be instant, possibly physically harmful to the horse and instantly forgotten. I've seen this so many times in clinics with a rider way below the standard and expecting miracles. There's a 'name' teaching who eventually gets ticked off by having their time wasted and because of the negative PR they'll get on social media and the money being charged they suddenly lose their marbles. Until you get someone who will say "Get out of my lesson and learn to ride" this will continue.
Incidentally, was that whip sound enhanced in the editing because none of mine sound like that?
Top level professional riders and professional dancers devote their lives to hard work and discipline and messing about with someone who wants to play at it in a half-arsed fashion will only end in tears and the end of a career.

 

[Cortez]

The question was about whether he might be interviewed, and his signing that letter doesn't mean he won't be, if the FEI think it relevant.

How do you know?

 

[Supertrooper]

Yes, this is such a large part of my sense of anger and disappointment. In the video footage CDJ just looks like a cheap, low end dealer (I can't think of the right word and not intending to slur decent people who deal in horses but I think most people will understand a culturally colloquial reference here) - aggression instead of clarity, total lack of empathy for the horse, with only an immediate outcome in mind. There is ego a-plenty and total lack of self awareness.

I thought, hoped, assumed, that with the length and extent of her training, experience and opportunity to think, full time, about horses that she would be 'better', in just about every way. I know people who have had good training experiences with her but this is a world apart from a values and integrity based approach to horses. It is just so, so sad and disappointing that, on this day, our 'top' equestrian couldn't find better tools and a kinder approach.

Completely and utterly agree

 

[Abacus]

How do you know?

How do I know what? Whether he’ll be interviewed or whether the letter would discount him?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I can see no reason why Carl Hester would be interviewed. It had absolutely nothing to do with him.

I would expect him to be interviewed as part of a 'fact-finding' mission.CDJ may even ask for him to be interviewed if she thinks he would say that wasn't usual way if working for her.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

The investigation will be about the incident filmed. Nothing else.

I very much doubt that!

 

[FieldOrnaments]

I see Equisafety have removed their rather unprofessional post. Needless to say it backfired on them!

what was their post? I've used them in the past

 

[Cortez]

How do I know what? Whether he’ll be interviewed or whether the letter would discount him?

How do you know anything about what the FEI will or won't do? It's just idle speculation.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

The only way to get instant results in training is to cut corners, but that wont be ingrained, it will be instant, possibly physically harmful to the horse and instantly forgotten. I've seen this so many times in clinics with a rider way below the standard and expecting miracles. There's a 'name' teaching who eventually gets ticked off by having their time wasted and because of the negative PR they'll get on social media and the money being charged they suddenly lose their marbles. Until you get someone who will say "Get out of my lesson and learn to ride" this will continue.
Incidentally, was that whip sound enhanced in the editing because none of mine sound like that?
Top level professional riders and professional dancers devote their lives to hard work and discipline and messing about with someone who wants to play at it in a half-arsed fashion will only end in tears and the end of a career.

Are you victim blaming by saying the teenager on the horse wasn't good enough to be being taught by CDJ so it's her fault CDJ lost her rag?

Surely she's taken the money to teach the girl, so if the horse isn't ready, you focus on something they can do? I get there's pushy parents, you see it all the time on dance mums but it feels like you're insinuating it's the paying customers who are at fault for this

The combination looked pretty advanced to me, but if she's offering lessons it's her duty to say what standard she's willing to teach

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

I never said there was. I'd be interested to see it that's all. Presumably rest of lesson was normal, so what sparked this incident etc. Whilst I don't condone what she did it I do feel it would be good to see thats all. Most things when taken taken out of context can appear different. Like I say not defending her but equally would be interest to see it. One assumes rest of lesson was absolutely fine.

I understand what you are saying and I don't see that as defending her. I would also be very interested to see a video of the whole lesson, not to find an excuse for why she did what she did, just on an academic level to see the stages that led up to this incident. Of course it is relevant, not as an excuse but might enlighten us on what could possibly have preceded it for such a highly renowned rider and trainer to think that was an acceptable thing to do.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

I'm curious to know how seeing the rest of the video would change what she's done.
Would it make it all better if she gave the horse a hug afterwards?
I understand the moment in time argument when referring to a photo or a short video clip where the horse may have hyperflexed itself and it looks like the rider is riding in rollkur.
However the CDJ video is long enough and clear enough that there can be no mistaking the intent of the use of the whip. Nothing she does before or after that (and nothing the horse or rider may or may not have done) could justify that purposeful response from her.

It's more out of curiosity really. It in no way changes what she has done, or makes it right. I agree totally that the way she behaved in no way looks like a moment of lost control it looks like "her way" of doing things sadly.

One would assume the rest of the training was normal hence it not being shown. Or was there something that made her do this albeit that it's wrong. I just like the full picture its how I am

 

[Ditchjumper2]

I understand what you are saying and I don't see that as defending her. I would also be very interested to see a video of the whole lesson, not to find an excuse for why she did what she did, just on an academic level to see the stages that led up to this incident. Of course it is relevant, not as an excuse but might enlighten us on what could possibly have preceded it for such a highly renowned rider and trainer to think that was an acceptable thing to do.

Thankyou.

 

[scats]

what was their post? I've used them in the past

They have actually left the same comment under another post still up there, but they’d basically said that they weren’t shocked by the revelations because CDJ had thrown a temper tantrum at a photo shoot with them and refused to do what she had been paid to do.

Clearly the relationship between them had broken down a while ago (which I didn’t realise), but it did not look good at all and many people commented as such.

 

[IrishMilo]

The only way to get instant results in training is to cut corners, but that wont be ingrained, it will be instant, possibly physically harmful to the horse and instantly forgotten. I've seen this so many times in clinics with a rider way below the standard and expecting miracles. There's a 'name' teaching who eventually gets ticked off by having their time wasted and because of the negative PR they'll get on social media and the money being charged they suddenly lose their marbles. Until you get someone who will say "Get out of my lesson and learn to ride" this will continue.
Incidentally, was that whip sound enhanced in the editing because none of mine sound like that?
Top level professional riders and professional dancers devote their lives to hard work and discipline and messing about with someone who wants to play at it in a half-arsed fashion will only end in tears and the end of a career.

What in God's name are you harping on about? If Charlotte didn't want to teach her due to the rider's inability she should have said 'I'm really sorry but let's go back to basics for a while, I know XYZ who would be happy to help'.

Not use it as an excuse to beat the everliving Christ out of the horse and then have the audacity to blame the rider.

 

[Fellewell]

Are you victim blaming by saying the teenager on the horse wasn't good enough to be being taught by CDJ so it's her fault CDJ lost her rag?

Surely she's taken the money to teach the girl, so if the horse isn't ready, you focus on something they can do? I get there's pushy parents, you see it all the time on dance mums but it feels like you're insinuating it's the paying customers who are at fault for this

The combination looked pretty advanced to me, but if she's offering lessons it's her duty to say what standard she's willing to teach

The 'victim' in all this was the horse. I always advocate for my horses, wouldn't you? The other two points, yes don't try to run before you can walk and yes refuse to teach if the person on top can't understand what you're asking.

 

[Abacus]

How do you know anything about what the FEI will or won't do? It's just idle speculation.

Yes, so is much of this thread and many others. Please feel free to call out everyone who is speculating - or just the ones who have, mildly, challenged you?

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

The 'victim' in all this was the horse. I always advocate for my horses, wouldn't you? The other two points, yes don't try to run before you can walk and yes refuse to teach if the person on top can't understand what you're asking.

Or...wild idea here...adapt the teaching to a level they can understand or make a recommendation for a teacher who can.

 

[AmyMay]

Or...wild idea here...adapt the teaching to a level they can understand or make a recommendation for a teacher who can.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

The only way to get instant results in training is to cut corners, but that wont be ingrained, it will be instant, possibly physically harmful to the horse and instantly forgotten. I've seen this so many times in clinics with a rider way below the standard and expecting miracles. There's a 'name' teaching who eventually gets ticked off by having their time wasted and because of the negative PR they'll get on social media and the money being charged they suddenly lose their marbles. Until you get someone who will say "Get out of my lesson and learn to ride" this will continue.
Incidentally, was that whip sound enhanced in the editing because none of mine sound like that?
Top level professional riders and professional dancers devote their lives to hard work and discipline and messing about with someone who wants to play at it in a half-arsed fashion will only end in tears and the end of a career.

This is actually hilarious.

Hopefully your whip doesn't sound like that because you're not forcefully smacking your horses with it. But if you are and it doesn't make the sound maybe it's faulty?

 

[Burnerbee]

Way too many people think animals ‘owe them’ a living. No. We - very deliberately - breed them to entertain and enrich us - typically from a social perspective often financially. The animals have no choice in any of it and that is conveniently forgotten.

If they can’t don’t pick their legs up high enough - or whatever the human’s issue is - tough luck, move on. They are not machines and you can’t get your money back if they don’t meet your spec. Adapt or put up with it.

 

[paddy555]

I'm sure everyone is `aware of who the potential "outer" is by now. Daren't discuss it on here in case I get the thread closed especially as the name got removed yesterday.
There are some interesting posts on the FB group

"equestrians it's time to act" pages

where this person is discussed.
I looked at the person's FB page and one of their main pics, to my very innocent little dressage mind didn't look over impressive. Ears back, horse didn't look happy and overbent, BTV. Just like the rest of them.
Obviously as someone who doesn't aspire to GP dressage I cannot in any way comment but I thought the FB page was interesting.

 

[WrongLeg]

I can't get over the fundamental misunderstanding that lifting the legs higher should be trained like a trick rather than emerge naturally from correct gymnastic conditioning. Even if you were to train leg lifting with well-executed positive reinforcement rather than a stupid and poorly timed attempt at negative reinforcement I suppose, it would still be incorrect training and produce potential longer term negative physical consequences for the horse.

I can't get over whacking a ridden horse with lunge whip especially with the rider being a youngster.

Mad.

I think it’s about stopping at nothing to win. Anything was considered justifiable if the cause was success.

This is how many of us were taught, with our instructor’s whip hitting the horse and the child. I saw horses being beaten as a child, and I think it normalised this for today’s adults.

I also don’t think that beating a horse is ever an effective or clever way to improve his way of going, because it makes the horse & rider tense.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

the irony!

The #bekind crew are the worst, they just use it as a socially acceptable shorthand for "shut up, woman, you're saying things I don't like". It's used to silence people and to pressure them to ignore bad behaviour, and has very strong misogynistic undertones.

I feel sure people won't be invoking Caroline Flack for the person who the lawyer is representing. We only #bekind when it suits.

 

[SAS56]

They have actually left the same comment under another post still up there, but they’d basically said that they weren’t shocked by the revelations because CDJ had thrown a temper tantrum at a photo shoot with them and refused to do what she had been paid to do.

Clearly the relationship between them had broken down a while ago (which I didn’t realise), but it did not look good at all and many people commented as such.

I thought this - increasingly Carl had done less and less with her and the media stuff. Don't forget Alan Davies leaving and I remember him saying that Charlotte was a perfectionist and everything had to be done exactly as she said. In some ways perhaps it is good Carl is at the Olympics and away from the yard but it isn't going to be easy for him - i feel so sorry for him.

 

[Mare Stare]

Carl's condemnation (no paywall) - https://archive.md/O6xqE

 

[Velcrobum]

Copied and pasted from D.T.

Is the video a targeted attempt against Dujardin?​

Yes, clearly. In an interview with Telegraph Sport, the whistleblower’s lawyer, Stephan Wensing, acknowledged his client could not stomach the prospect of Dujardin winning another medal.
Explaining why she had taken at least two years to alert authorities, he said his client was initially “thinking this must be normal” after witnessing the whipping. “My client asked around and was warned against speaking out in the UK,” he said. “But last year my client saw others suspended in the UK and elsewhere.” Over the weekend, he added, “she eventually made a decision to let me admit the complaint to the FEI”, who “took this immediately very seriously”.

Could it have been set up by a rival team?​

Less likely. Such suggestions are vehemently denied by the lawyer. Telegraph Sport understands the unidentified 19-year-old woman on horseback for the lesson with Dujardin is English. It is not clear where the sponsor who took the film comes from but Wensing is a Dutch lawyer and the first details of the Dujardin video emerge on an equestrian website in the Netherlands.
It’s understood that bad blood between the British and Dutch equestrian camps stretches back to London 2012, when the team of Dujardin, Carl Hester and Laura Bechtolsheimer swept the board with gold in both individual and team events, leaving the favourites Netherlands with silver and bronze medals respectively. But there are no substantiated links between the claims in the Netherlands and any member of the Dutch equestrian team.
The Netherlands Olympic team, meanwhile, has been busy dealing with its own scandal in recent weeks, facing severe criticism for allowing volleyball player Steven van de Velde to compete despite being previously convicted for raping a 12-year-old British girl.