CDJ withdrawn from paris

[Equi]

Here's what she can do to find some sort of redemption. Go away, stay very quiet for a long time, and train horses without putting them under horrendous pressure or whacking them relentlessly. If she can do that and still produce horses capable of GP competition, that will be proof of how wrong she was. If she can't, it will still prove it, and also expose her as a fraud. She's already apologised, I wonder if she's sorry enough to prove it.

I really respect this response. Especially the last sentence.

 

[Dave's Mam]

She's already apologised, I wonder if she's sorry enough to prove it.

This.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

Feels like de ja vu to Edward Gal. There are a lot of parallels that can be drawn between the two. Both the golden child of their respective countries that brought dressage and equestrian 'sport' more generally into the public consciousness more prominently; both lauded for their 'talent' and results with one particular horse; both fell from grace some years on following allegations of abuse, but apparently too cemented into the culture of the discipline to be usurped entirely. Gal is back competing now so maybe with CDJ it will go the same way, but one has to hope that for the welfare of the horses it won't. A paradigm shift is needed in competitive events across all disciplines - I don't know if anyone else saw the images of the horses already in France in rolkur - but the attitude of abuse and the horse as equipment rather than a sentient, feeling, breathing animal who actually doesn't care about medals or glory or travelling the world, seems grossly cosmopolitan in the higher levels of the 'sport'. Of course it's not every rider, but it is enough and it is too many. I am so utterly appalled by how completely and utterly abusive training practices seem to have permeated it makes me wonder if it even should have a future at all if the drive for medals and accolades overcomes the need to follow principles of sportmanship and respect for one's teammates (the horse).

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I think I’d rather see her try a different sport. Badminton perhaps, where it’s not frowned apon to hit a target with a stick, in fact it’s encouraged. And you can hit harder with a racket.

I played badminton to high level until my ptsd and now spinal damage made that very hard, it’s a game of considerable skill to be able to track and strike an object moving at speeds of up to 500kmph. Dont diss other sports just to try to make a catty comment.

 

[Dust Bunny]

I was okay until we were asked to give her understanding

I agree with you there! Understanding .... why? We are all responsible for our actions, and have to live with the consequences.

 

[magicmoments]

Here's what she can do to find some sort of redemption. Go away, stay very quiet for a long time, and train horses without putting them under horrendous pressure or whacking them relentlessly. If she can do that and still produce horses capable of GP competition, that will be proof of how wrong she was. If she can't, it will still prove it, and also expose her as a fraud. She's already apologised, I wonder if she's sorry enough to prove it.

Now, I may be being naive, but I haven't assumed she has trained her horses in this way, just perhaps taught in this way. My reasoning being, that she is obviously a very talented rider, and is usually riding a very talented horse, so maybe it comes more easily, without the need to use this sickening method. I can only hope.

 

[Peglo]

I played badminton to high level until my ptsd and now spinal damage made that very hard, it’s a game of considerable skill to be able to track and strike an object moving at speeds of up to 500kmph. Dont diss other sports just to try to make a catty comment.

I wasn’t dissing badminton. I was suggesting a sport where hitting an object is the main aim of the game.

 

[cauda equina]

I wonder if there's some soul searching going on more widely-

How many riders or trainers thinking 'There but for the grace of God...'
And those at the top of the FEI who are responsible for the direction dressage has taken - is anyone thinking they might have had a part to play in this too, albeit indirectly?

 

[eahotson]

I wonder if there's some soul searching going on more widely-

How many riders or trainers thinking 'There but for the grace of God...'
And those at the top of the FEI who are responsible for the direction dressage has taken - is anyone thinking they might have had a part to play in this too, albeit indirectly?

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

And those at the top of the FEI who are responsible for the direction dressage has taken - is anyone thinking they might have had a part to play in this too, albeit indirectly?

Very much so. They are the ones who have decreed what deserves the highest marks in competition, what all riders 'should' be aiming for in the discipline. The riders have followed the instructions they have been given, really.

 

[Spotherisk]

Here's what she can do to find some sort of redemption. Go away, stay very quiet for a long time, and train horses without putting them under horrendous pressure or whacking them relentlessly. If she can do that and still produce horses capable of GP competition, that will be proof of how wrong she was. If she can't, it will still prove it, and also expose her as a fraud. She's already apologised, I wonder if she's sorry enough to prove it.

With a 24/7 live stream to all her training facilities…

 

[Ceifer]

I think by the very nature of equestrianism we are told that people who are more experienced than us/ have better competition results are not to be questioned.
I grew up and trained on a yard with a BHSI and she was not to be questioned on anything, her word ruled and that was that.

There are lots of people sharing posts on Facebook by others saying to be kind and let’s all move on, we’ve all made mistakes etc etc. The cynic in me believes they’ve written these posts for likes/shares.

 

[palo1]

I wonder if there's some soul searching going on more widely-

How many riders or trainers thinking 'There but for the grace of God...'
And those at the top of the FEI who are responsible for the direction dressage has taken - is anyone thinking they might have had a part to play in this too, albeit indirectly?

I really, really hope so. I am not involved in dressage and very rarely use any kind of gadget including a whip but it has made me think more generally about my own methods, aspirations etc. True change is very difficult but catalysts for reflection can be really helpful in driving that.

 

[meleeka]

I think by the very nature of equestrianism we are told that people who are more experienced than us/ have better competition results are not to be questioned.
I grew up and trained on a yard with a BHSI and she was not to be questioned on anything, her word ruled and that was that.

There are lots of people sharing posts on Facebook by others saying to be kind and let’s all move on, we’ve all made mistakes etc etc. The cynic in me believes they’ve written these posts for likes/shares.

I worked out a very long time ago that I wasn't going to be hugely successful in my chosen discipline (showing), because I wasn't willing to compromise the welfare of my horse. Top class horses are kept in a way that helps them to win, not in a way that makes them happier. CJD was one of the few I thought who really cared about the welfare of the horse and it turns out, that was a lie. The fact that a big thing was made about their horses being turned out every day in pairs and even hacked, says it all really about the way top class horses are usually treated and the higher the level, the worse it is.

 

[Equi]

I wonder if there's some soul searching going on more widely-

How many riders or trainers thinking 'There but for the grace of God...'
And those at the top of the FEI who are responsible for the direction dressage has taken - is anyone thinking they might have had a part to play in this too, albeit indirectly?

Equestrians will. The public wont look into the fei as part of the problem.

 

[cauda equina]

Equestrians will. The public wont look into the fei as part of the problem.

No not the public, but I hope FEI themselves will accept that they're part of the problem

 

[Equi]

No not the public, but I hope FEI themselves will accept that they're part of the problem

I’m not sure I hold much hope for that but the scores from this games will be telling.

 

[Ifmpw]

Equestrians will. The public wont look into the fei as part of the problem.

But if the FEI doesn't look at itself, ultimately they will be looked at and held to account
I am sure those that held dog fights, cock fights and did a bit of bear bating thought the same
the grand national has even had to bow to peer pressure
Dressage needs to start waking up and quickly
I am in work this morning, and the amount of non horse folk asking me is this what i will be doing this weekend is quite upsetting
I have just been asked "is it cause horses don't scream, you can beat them" ?

 

[scats]

I really doubt CDJ will come back from this, or will even want to.
I hope she does. I hope she uses this as a way of holding up her hands and saying “I’ve let everyone down and I’ve gone about this all wrong, and I’m going to do my best to prove that you can get to the top without these methods” but honestly, I think the damage is too far gone.

The difference between this and Helgstrand is that that the latter didn’t actually get much exposure. I mentioned it on FB the other day in a post and I had a few horse friends text me asking what it was, as they had no idea. CDJ has been given 6pm news slots.

I also remember that CDJ had massive anxiety problems around talking to the media and the media hype after London. I know she obviously worked hard to get through this and has become much more adept at interacting and dealing with the press, but I can’t help think this whole thing is going to cause her a level of anxiety that she’s not going to want to face.

The saving grace for her is that she has made a decent amount of money from her career so I imagine she can afford to give up and focus on family life. But what a sad and soul destroying way to go out of the sport.

 

[sbloom]

I honestly don't think you can get to the top with truly horse centred training. Measuring the success of her rehabilitation by whether she can get ethically trained horses to the top just isn't going to happen imo as the FEI will never change to that extent. I mean even the rules have changed over the decades to allow work that isn't truly biomechanically correct, and movements removed that test the quality of training.

I hope that she stays away from competition, ploughs her own furrow with a combination of amazing training, rehabbing horses and supporting charities, whilst telling her story so everyone learns from it.

I'm dreaming, clearly, but we can wish...

 

[palo1]

I’m not sure I hold much hope for that but the scores from this games will be telling.

I don't think there is much that will change in terms of scoring/judging at these games; it will be really difficult for even determined individual judges to start awarding marks very differently and that would take the lid off another tricky kettle of fish around fairness to competitors who have prepped for how things are. But t it would be really fantastic if some judges had the courage to mark differently - that would suggest that some of them do see how awful some of the rewarded movement is atm and that the knowledge to support change exists. I won't be holding my breath though!

Really frustrating are the SM posts that are showing concern about the loss of big sponsors for dressage - asserting that the money is needed to support the sport to change; being so blind to how money has absolutely led to the current state is very depressing

 

[cauda equina]

A decent time spent in the wilderness plus lots of humility and I think she could return to competition, if she wanted to
Meanwhile I bet there are people who would still want to train with her if they thought she could help them win
Not everyone has scruples

 

[reynold]

I find it sad that she probably started with horses when young because she loved horses but that now it's become such a business that the horse has become merely a commodity to be used.

It will be interesting to see if she does/wants to come back from this. Whether the love of just riding a horse will let her start over.

 

[teddy_]

Feels like de ja vu to Edward Gal. There are a lot of parallels that can be drawn between the two. Both the golden child of their respective countries that brought dressage and equestrian 'sport' more generally into the public consciousness more prominently; both lauded for their 'talent' and results with one particular horse; both fell from grace some years on following allegations of abuse, but apparently too cemented into the culture of the discipline to be usurped entirely. Gal is back competing now so maybe with CDJ it will go the same way, but one has to hope that for the welfare of the horses it won't. A paradigm shift is needed in competitive events across all disciplines - I don't know if anyone else saw the images of the horses already in France in rolkur - but the attitude of abuse and the horse as equipment rather than a sentient, feeling, breathing animal who actually doesn't care about medals or glory or travelling the world, seems grossly cosmopolitan in the higher levels of the 'sport'. Of course it's not every rider, but it is enough and it is too many. I am so utterly appalled by how completely and utterly abusive training practices seem to have permeated it makes me wonder if it even should have a future at all if the drive for medals and accolades overcomes the need to follow principles of sportmanship and respect for one's teammates (the horse).

Just a pedantic correction; Gal was not lauded for one particular horse. Haven’t you heard of Gribaldi? Who by no means had a fate comparable to Totilas. I would also disagree that Gal fell from grace. One case has been brought against him which famously failed.

 

[Hamlet]

Has anyone seen any of her riding demos such as at Your Horse Live or similar? I was there a couple of years ago watching her, she was on a grey mare. There was part of the demo that I think shocked the whole audience, it certainly earned a gasp from the crowd. The horse was riding around in canter (beautifully in my amateur view)…out of seemingly nowhere Charlotte whipped the horse 3 times very sharply and very hard in my opinion. The (confused!) horse shot off to the other side of the arena in a panic. Charlotte then told us breathlessly that is what she wanted, for the horse to react sharply as she’d put her leg on and it hadn’t reacted quickly enough in her opinion. She then continued doing this a few times…really riling the horse up and her saying she does this in training. Every time the horse panicked and bolted forwards. I remember watching really shocked by it and it has never sat easy with me, even as she tried to explain her logic I couldn’t wrap my head around it. She was hitting hard, you could hear the whip deafeningly from near the back where I was sat. Why would you want to create such a panic in your horse so much that it bolts around with you just to get an invisibly sharper reaction. It was complete fear based training and I’ve gone off the woman completely since watching that made me very sad for her horses.

 

[sbloom]

Not much different from the "Spencering" that Carl has shown regularly at demos. Booting with the leg versus thwacking with a whip, not so much in it....

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

If I can find which article I read it in yesterday I will link it, but the president of FEI did not make me hold my breath for change.

It looks like we're going to minimise the issue (a small number of riders, the 'bad apples' type line), play ignorant to the systemic issues clearly present and presumably pray the mainstream media don't pick up more on Helgstrand etc.

The more I think about it, the more I'm disappointed in BDs response. Especially the bit about their policies working in this scenario. How? How exactly have their policies 'worked' here? Judging by the FB comment section it appears to have pacified many BD members to feel better about it all. Change will not come from this. It should feel uncomfortable to us. And instead of shying away, it needs to be truly faced if things are actually going to change.

 

[tda]

Now, I may be being naive, but I haven't assumed she has trained her horses in this way, just perhaps taught in this way. My reasoning being, that she is obviously a very talented rider, and is usually riding a very talented horse, so maybe it comes more easily, without the need to use this sickening method. I can only hope.

Is it a definite that it isn't one of Charlotte's horses, but one owned by the rider? No way to know I guess

 

[I'm Dun]

I really doubt CDJ will come back from this, or will even want to.
I hope she does. I hope she uses this as a way of holding up her hands and saying “I’ve let everyone down and I’ve gone about this all wrong, and I’m going to do my best to prove that you can get to the top without these methods” but honestly, I think the damage is too far gone.

The difference between this and Helgstrand is that that the latter didn’t actually get much exposure. I mentioned it on FB the other day in a post and I had a few horse friends text me asking what it was, as they had no idea. CDJ has been given 6pm news slots.

I also remember that CDJ had massive anxiety problems around talking to the media and the media hype after London. I know she obviously worked hard to get through this and has become much more adept at interacting and dealing with the press, but I can’t help think this whole thing is going to cause her a level of anxiety that she’s not going to want to face.

The saving grace for her is that she has made a decent amount of money from her career so I imagine she can afford to give up and focus on family life. But what a sad and soul destroying way to go out of the sport.

The general public didnt know and didn't care about Helgstrand. They care very much that someone they liked and thought was a role model has duped them. They assume if CDJ trains like this then everyone does. And horsey people/BD/FEI etc are making this a million times worse by either saying horrific things like I've seen worse, you have to push them like this, or putting out wishy washy statements. Pammy Hutton has pretty much defended her. Its been on every group I'm on on facebook, from boating to crafting to politics. The comments are variations on a theme, and don't make for nice reading.

People arent stupid, anyone watching can see how calm and collected that behaviour is. Anyone trying to minimise it or defend it is adding to the problem.

I think its a slippery slope to the end of Olympic equestrianism now. I don't think anything will stop that happening. I also think competitive equestrianism is in BIG trouble. We need to condem this as a united front, in very strong and clear terms. From the FEI downards. Every single one of us needs to say, we don't do this, this isn't right. I don't know if that would be enough, but the current situation is just making the issues worse.

 

[sbloom]

Is it a definite that it isn't one of Charlotte's horses, but one owned by the rider? No way to know I guess

Owned by the Australian lady videoing.