CDJ withdrawn from paris

pistolpete said:
Maybe it is unfair but after everything she’s said and done it’s all about her! Still no real remorse as far as I can see. I don’t give a stuff about her reproducing!
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But do you actually think she herself has sat down and wrote that statement? I think it’s unlikely. It will be orchestrated by a team.
 
The FEI has made its decision. Whether people agree or not isn't really relevant. The ban and fine are a punishment but the true punishment is that her name and reputation are ruined.

I don't think she will be gone for good. She will most certainly be competing again, however I think she will largely focus on competitions abroad. The high scores will return and sponsors along with them.

I think that now needs to be the end of matters. That's not to say her actions should be forgiven and forgotten, but the vitriol and spiteful comments need to stop. Ultimately she is still human. Her actions were completely unacceptable but I don't believe they are uncommon amongst high level competition riders. That does not excuse her but she has been dealt her punishment and needs to be allowed to move on with her life.
 
I agree it's not helpful to keep going on at CDJ. At the same time, it's incredibly frustrating to see such lack of renewed commitment to improve horse welfare (from the FEI, from BD, or from Charlotte as far as I can tell).

The Denmark thing is interesting. If the FEI and National organisations continue to refuse to actually regulate horse welfare in sport, it will be done for them.
 
SaddlePsych'D said:
I agree it's not helpful to keep going on at CDJ. At the same time, it's incredibly frustrating to see such lack of renewed commitment to improve horse welfare (from the FEI, from BD, or from Charlotte as far as I can tell).

The Denmark thing is interesting. If the FEI and National organisations continue to refuse to actually regulate horse welfare in sport, it will be done for them.
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It doesn't say doubles though, it says 'curb bits' (admittedly I've not read the attached letter - google translate won't work on the PDF. Hopefully Eurodressage will do a translation and a balanced article on it at some point). That would potentially include anything with leverage - Pelhams, kimberwicks and a myriad of other single bits that are used daily. I don't think that would get a lot of support, personally I've seen some horrendous bruising from riders thinking they were being 'kinder' in a snaffle.
 
I don't believe that sponsors will work with her as extensively as they did before she was outed. Her career will have to be more lowkey from now on which inevitably means she is less of a draw for brands who need their money to go a certain distance. I'm sure some will still want to work with her, but her earnings will be far lower than before. She'll never again have the kind of wholesome, cross-sectional appeal she did post-2012 olympics.
 
pistolpete said:
Maybe it is unfair but after everything she’s said and done it’s all about her! Still no real remorse as far as I can see. I don’t give a stuff about her reproducing!
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What’s remorse supposed to look like? Photos of her crying and saying how Sooooorrry she is? what do you expect? It’s always going to be a carefully crafted statement.
 
change is coming - Stockholm show had a riders meeting where the rules of welfare were laid out and explained by one of the best sjers in the world. Foreign riders were told what they were allowed and not allowed to do under Swedish rules. In Sweden you are not allowed to take your hand off the reins to smack the horse which is a good rule and then only once.
 
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As I have said before, I don't like what Charlotte did and I think it is right that she is punished.Inadvertently she may well have done horse sport a favor because there are very real welfare discussions going on finally.However about 4 or 5 years ago I wrote about how I had seen,on live screen, at Bolesworth,a quite well known show jumper have a stop which in my opinion was rider error.However this very tall muscular bloke upended his whip, leant across and delivered a vicious blow to the horses ribs.He put all his weight and strength behind it.Nothing was said, least by the judges.I wrote and complained to the BSJA and pointed out it was all on camera so they couldn't do the usual denials.They did reply and said they would look into it but I heard nothing more.
I wrote about it on this forum and quite a number of people defended him saying what a lovely man he was.
I wonder if some of what it going on from the horse public about Charlotte is simply because she is a woman.Perhaps if he had been caught doing that it would have been more easily dismissed .
 
eahotson said:
As I have said before, I don't like what Charlotte did and I think it is right that she is punished.Inadvertently she may well have done horse sport a favor because there are very real welfare discussions going on finally.However about 4 or 5 years ago I wrote about how I had seen,on live screen, at Bolesworth,a quite well known show jumper have a stop which in my opinion was rider error.However this very tall muscular bloke upended his whip, leant across and delivered a vicious blow to the horses ribs.He put all his weight and strength behind it.Nothing was said, least by the judges.I wrote and complained to the BSJA and pointed out it was all on camera so they couldn't do the usual denials.They did reply and said they would look into it but I heard nothing more.
I wrote about it on this forum and quite a number of people defended him saying what a lovely man he was.
I wonder if some of what it going on from the horse public about Charlotte is simply because she is a woman.Perhaps if he had been caught doing that it would have been more easily dismissed .
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That's a fair point I'd say - even in 2024 there is certainly still gender bias/inequality.
 
As someone who works in an industry where there is child protection/safeguarding risk and zero tolerance approach to abuse, I struggle with the idea that where there is duty of care and that has been breached, there isn’t a lifetime ban. Yes it cuts a career dead but it’s not the ban that does that, it’s the breach. I’m not advocating the trolling, social media persecution but an appropriate punishment for mistreatment of a vulnerable sentient being by someone who had a clear obligation to do better.
 
Just watched the Geneva international show jumping.

It was terrible in the 1.60m class, some of the best riders in the world crashing into the fences...

Enrich von Eckerman ( Dutch) with his 14 years old King Edwards having stops everywhere..... He is the world number one but the horse look like he had enough....
He had a fall in Paris at the Olympics, the horse stopped and the rider crashed in a filler. In fact, the horse went left and the rider right....

Martin Fuchs ( (Swiss) and Leone Jei completly missed his stride and asking his horse to take off one stride early and crashing the fence and one pole completly.

Barbara Schinper (Swiss) with Canice also loosing her mind and missing badly and crashing the fence.

Markus Ehnig (Ger) with his best horse also missing the distance and crashing...

The Spanish Leonard di Locca had a bad fall, also by missing his stride.

It really looked bad and not good for the public, horses on the floor, riders too and broken poles everywhere.

The speaker when asked by a collegue what was happening said, the hoses just love jumping !

IMMO, King Edward should have a break, the rider might be the best in the wolrd but the horse had enough.

Another Swedish rider had a 18 years old horse, Catch me not, a nice grey, he stopped too.

People seems not to see the obvious...

It wasn't nice to watch, it's just too much for the horses, too high, too technical, too demanding....
 
I watched the same class and my observations were:

It’s a very high pressure class. I have NEVER seen Marcus Ehning make such a mistake and I must have watched him for hours and hours over the years.

King Edward is a VERY sensitive horse and very tricky. The fact he has been so successful is testament to Henrik who is a genius with horses. I watched him in person last year at Geneva and the efforts the team go to to keep him happy and relaxed is nothing you have seen. I commented to @TheMule thst Henrik will not leave any stone unturned with finding out what is going on and he looked class jumping round. You can’t comment that a horse is done when it jumps two exemplary rounds like I watched over the weekend but has a stop in the JO. Your comment on the Olympics is inaccurate. Henrik was off balance and the horse turned the wrong way.

I have watched quite a bit of Barbara over the years and she has some good horses but they are not true world class. Barbara makes mistakes and the horses are probably at the top end. Sometimes it goes well and sometimes she has some poles. Barbara is Swiss which is how she gets into the show, just like London International lets in British riders who are not on world class horses. You will see it on Sunday at London International. William Funnell and Jodi Hall-Mcteer. They will most likely have a few poles in World Cup and that’s a second rate World Cup field compared to others held.

Martin is on a super quick horse and had £1 million on the line due to Rolex bonus. Unfortunately it made him ride badly but the margins are fine and it’s the top of the sport. Modern poles are so light and the horse pinged round even after the howler martin had in the JO. Harrie set down a brilliant first person out round and it put all the others under pressure.

This will be Catch Me last season pretty much he won’t do much now, he is 18 but jumped better than I have seen him for a while (I watch a lot of top sjing) in the first round but he is near the end of his career now.

So what you haven’t said in this hyperbole is:

1) I have never seen so little gear on horses heads. They are in very simple kit on the whole. There is the odd horse like Caymen Jolly jumper which actually is a hackamore and snaffle so not that strong on a very hot horse.

2) lots quickly retired when it wasn’t their day. Every horse had a pat and not a single horse was told off in anyway. It’s a big tricky class with the absolute best in the world. They will come back another day.

3) Modern poles are super light (I can carry 2/3) and the cups are shallow. They fall with very little effort which is why you need a super sensitive and careful horse. You can’t teach a horse that, with that comes a horse who if wrong will stop. I watched two who had an awkward jump and then carried that on to next few jumps. One the Canadian’s didn’t get better or get back its confidence so she retired and another - Marcus’s got better further he went.

4) this is the biggest class in the world for elite competition in doing after the Olympics. It’s the absolute pinnacle to ride here and win this class. With that comes pressure. It was a brilliant class to watch and mistakes got penalised without the horse being penalised. How it should be.

5) two horses were wow - point break and Giles horse. Both 10yo. Exciting for the future.

6) I spent probably 1 hour watching the horse who came 2nd in Geneva at Dublin Horse Show - I watched her in the warm up (which is all open to view). Then jump her class. She is an absolute athlete. She is a bit of a freak as her breeding is very average.
 
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Please may I ask a numpty question?

I haven't regularly followed equestrian sports for many years now, but from what I remember 'back in the day' the top classes used to be around 1.50.

Is the addition of a 1.60 class a regular thing now - is 1.60 the new 1.50? Or is it just the occasional (literally World Class) class?

(Or is my memory completely wrong and it's always been 1.60 at the top?)
 
JenJ said:
Please may I ask a numpty question?

I haven't regularly followed equestrian sports for many years now, but from what I remember 'back in the day' the top classes used to be around 1.50.

Is the addition of a 1.60 class a regular thing now - is 1.60 the new 1.50? Or is it just the occasional (literally World Class) class?

(Or is my memory completely wrong and it's always been 1.60 at the top?)
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There are very few true 1.60 classes. It can go to 1.68m but essentially it’s called 1.60m. The Olympics is classed as 1.65m and that can go I think to 1.72m but that would be final rounds for medals. Most get knocked out well before that hence the slight car crashes you can see as probably shouldn’t be there.

Most international GPs at 3* will run at 1.45/1.50m and it’s the very few 5* shows which will run 1.60m.

I have just looked up Dallas Vegas Batilly.

In 12 months she has done:
4 x 1.40m
4 x 1.45m
4 x 1.50m
6 x 1.55m
13 x 1.60m
6 x 1.65m (Olympics & Spruce Meadows)

If it’s any help we only have 3 x 5* shows in uk - Windsor, Hickstead and London International. There are around 20/30 5* shows in the year.

Aachen, Global Champions, Spruce Meadows, Paris Hermes, Geneva, Amsterdam, Stockholm and Dublin are among the list.
 
LEC said:
There are very few true 1.60 classes. It can go to 1.68m but essentially it’s called 1.60m. The Olympics is classed as 1.65m and that can go I think to 1.72m but that would be final rounds for medals. Most get knocked out well before that hence the slight car crashes you can see as probably shouldn’t be there.

Most international GPs at 3* will run at 1.45/1.50m and it’s the very few 5* shows which will run 1.60m.

I have just looked up Dallas Vegas Batilly.

In 12 months she has done:
4 x 1.40m
4 x 1.45m
4 x 1.50m
6 x 1.55m
13 x 1.60m
6 x 1.65m (Olympics & Spruce Meadows)

If it’s any help we only have 3 x 5* shows in uk - Windsor, Hickstead and London International. There are around 20/30 5* shows in the year.

Aachen, Global Champions, Spruce Meadows, Paris Hermes, Geneva, Amsterdam, Stockholm and Dublin are among the list.
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Thank you, that makes sense. I know I have a dodgy memory at the best of times, so wasn't quite sure!

My follow up question, had you said that it was now the standard, was going to be if the 'jumpable height' of an elite competition horse had increased over the years. But that may be a non-question now.
 
LEC said:
I watched the same class and my observations were:

It’s a very high pressure class. I have NEVER seen Marcus Ehning make such a mistake and I must have watched him for hours and hours over the years.

King Edward is a VERY sensitive horse and very tricky. The fact he has been so successful is testament to Henrik who is a genius with horses. I watched him in person last year at Geneva and the efforts the team go to to keep him happy and relaxed is nothing you have seen. I commented to @TheMule thst Henrik will not leave any stone unturned with finding out what is going on and he looked class jumping round. You can’t comment that a horse is done when it jumps two exemplary rounds like I watched over the weekend but has a stop in the JO. Your comment on the Olympics is inaccurate. Henrik was off balance and the horse turned the wrong way.

I have watched quite a bit of Barbara over the years and she has some good horses but they are not true world class. Barbara makes mistakes and the horses are probably at the top end. Sometimes it goes well and sometimes she has some poles. Barbara is Swiss which is how she gets into the show, just like London International lets in British riders who are not on world class horses. You will see it on Sunday at London International. William Funnell and Jodi Hall-Mcteer. They will most likely have a few poles in World Cup and that’s a second rate World Cup field compared to others held.

Martin is on a super quick horse and had £1 million on the line due to Rolex bonus. Unfortunately it made him ride badly but the margins are fine and it’s the top of the sport. Modern poles are so light and the horse pinged round even after the howler martin had in the JO. Harrie set down a brilliant first person out round and it put all the others under pressure.

This will be Catch Me last season pretty much he won’t do much now, he is 18 but jumped better than I have seen him for a while (I watch a lot of top sjing) in the first round but he is near the end of his career now.

So what you haven’t said in this hyperbole is:

1) I have never seen so little gear on horses heads. They are in very simple kit on the whole. There is the odd horse like Caymen Jolly jumper which actually is a hackamore and snaffle so not that strong on a very hot horse.

2) lots quickly retired when it wasn’t their day. Every horse had a pat and not a single horse was told off in anyway. It’s a big tricky class with the absolute best in the world. They will come back another day.

3) Modern poles are super light (I can carry 2/3) and the cups are shallow. They fall with very little effort which is why you need a super sensitive and careful horse. You can’t teach a horse that, with that comes a horse who if wrong will stop. I watched two who had an awkward jump and then carried that on to next few jumps. One the Canadian’s didn’t get better or get back its confidence so she retired and another - Marcus’s got better further he went.

4) this is the biggest class in the world for elite competition in doing after the Olympics. It’s the absolute pinnacle to ride here and win this class. With that comes pressure. It was a brilliant class to watch and mistakes got penalised without the horse being penalised. How it should be.

5) two horses were wow - point break and Giles horse. Both 10yo. Exciting for the future.

6) I spent probably 1 hour watching the horse who came 2nd in Geneva at Dublin Horse Show - I watched her in the warm up (which is all open to view). Then jump her class. She is an absolute athlete. She is a bit of a freak as her breeding is very average.
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Well the only comment I can make is that at Bolesworth I was watching one class.They nearly had to drag the horse into the ring.When the round started you could see why.The rider was clearly out of her depth.She kept having misses and after one jump JEFF BILLINGTON said "Crikey, give him a pat for that".It was very uncomfortable to watch.Reading you post Barabara reminded me.
 
eahotson said:
Well the only comment I can make is that at Bolesworth I was watching one class.They nearly had to drag the horse into the ring.When the round started you could see why.The rider was clearly out of her depth.She kept having misses and after one jump JEFF BILLINGTON said "Crikey, give him a pat for that".It was very uncomfortable to watch.Reading you post Barabara reminded me.
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There is no MERS unlike dressage and Eventing at sjing so a show like Bolesworth is pay your £1500 entry and you are in. The top shows have much more stringent invites. Global champions has a pay and you are in for rich kids but it’s 1.10/1.15 and the horses they have are normally exceptional. Barbara is a very very good rider, she wouldn’t have got in otherwise. She just wouldn’t have world class horses.
 
LEC said:
There is no MERS unlike dressage and Eventing at sjing so a show like Bolesworth is pay your £1500 entry and you are in. The top shows have much more stringent invites. Global champions has a pay and you are in for rich kids but it’s 1.10/1.15 and the horses they have are normally exceptional. Barbara is a very very good rider, she wouldn’t have got in otherwise. She just wouldn’t have world class horses.
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OK fair enough.
 
JenJ said:
Thank you, that makes sense. I know I have a dodgy memory at the best of times, so wasn't quite sure!

My follow up question, had you said that it was now the standard, was going to be if the 'jumpable height' of an elite competition horse had increased over the years. But that may be a non-question now.
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I think it used to be bigger but the courses were not as technical and the poles were a lot heavier. Hickstead has same course for last 50 years? Which is why you don’t see the good horses in the Derby.
 
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