CDJ withdrawn from paris

PurpleSpots said:
I do agree that it looks better than many. And the movements she's doing, coupled with the sequence of them, and the manner in which she's doing them, is impressive.

But if you watch the test again, focusing only on Freestyle's mouth, it tells a completely different story as to how the horse is feeling and coping with the work. Especially in the piaffe. The extended walk is I think the only movement where her mouth is quiet and closed. (There doesn't seem to be a huge amount of overtrack or throughness in the extended walk, and they don't score very highly for it, but assessing from the horse's comfort point of view it's the only movement that her mouth at least isn't communicating stress.)

For me, the only lasting impression I have of the test is, yet again, a horse compromising their body and mind to do what a human is requiring of them. I don't think it's possible to argue the case that the horse can be enjoying carrying out most of the test, and whilst I will likely be shot down for this post, I just don't think it is ok to think it is ok to do this to a horse. It truly is possible for horses to do these movements without undergoing physical and mental stress, and when they do there is an absence of stress and pain indicators.
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Don’t forget the stress of being in a large arena under the lights and lots of people , there aren’t many horses that will perform stress free in that sort of atmosphere and I thought that was the best test I’ve ever seen that horse do. CDJ always said that Valegro had a mouth like iron, she had been training him so I would think she rides with a strong hand so I doubt Catherine will be able to get freestyle to be light in her hand. IMO she is a brilliant rider and is more sympathetic with her handling of Freestyle than CDJ ever was and I enjoyed that test even with the fussy mouth, she wasnt forced into a BTV shape and is getting more relaxed ..
 
splashgirl45 said:
Don’t forget the stress of being in a large arena under the lights and lots of people , there aren’t many horses that will perform stress free in that sort of atmosphere
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This is a perfectly valid argument but it's always one that makes me wonder what right we have to put them under this kind of stress just because we fancy it.
 
Burnttoast said:
This is a perfectly valid argument but it's always one that makes me wonder what right we have to put them under this kind of stress just because we fancy it.
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Those who compete even locally are putting their horses under some stress, it’s a fine line to tread. Just hacking out could be stressful for my old mare some days, but I felt that the good that the exercise did outweighed the stress . We can’t remove all stress we cause unless they are left to roam wild, then they have different types of stress
 
splashgirl45 said:
Those who compete even locally are putting their horses under some stress, it’s a fine line to tread. Just hacking out could be stressful for my old mare some days, but I felt that the good that the exercise did outweighed the stress . We can’t remove all stress we cause unless they are left to roam wild, then they have different types of stress
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Yes, everyone needs to draw their own line, but the stress involved in competing (particularly at this level, clearly) and the lack of agency horses have in responding to it are nothing like the stresses horses evolved to live with, much in the same way that we didn't evolve to live with the pretty damaging stress many of us are under in modern society. There are real physical effects from chronic stress in humans and presumably also in horses too.
 
Burnttoast said:
Yes, everyone needs to draw their own line, but the stress involved in competing (particularly at this level, clearly) and the lack of agency horses have in responding to it are nothing like the stresses horses evolved to live with, much in the same way that we didn't evolve to live with the pretty damaging stress many of us are under in modern society. There are real physical effects from chronic stress in humans and presumably also in horses too.
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The only way to have no stress would be to not ride them at all and for them to have many acres to free roam. It’s not possible in this country as we don’t have the acreage for that. I don’t ride anymore but would if I could .
 
splashgirl45 said:
The only way to have no stress would be to not ride them at all and for them to have many acres to free roam. It’s not possible in this country as we don’t have the acreage for that. I don’t ride anymore but would if I could .
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Well perhaps - is that idea (in principle) unthinkable? In any case, no life is stress free, and that's not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting we should try not to inflict on them, for no good reason, chronic and unnatural stress which they have no way of escaping. That's my line. Other people will put it somewhere else. I reserve the right to disapprove of people who feel it's their right to stress their horse out for their own gain, though.
 
For me it's not that horses should never be stressed or tense in competition, but that when they are it should be very clearly reflected in the marks awarded. Not held up as the pinnacle of the sport. I struggled with watching that test. I know research is happening more and more, but I'm just not sure that the physics/mechanics of what is happening in the horses' mouths is really being recognised.

The most enjoyable tests to watch for me personally, at any level, are the potentially boring ones; where it just looks easy between horse and rider and there's a general vibe of 'they've got this' not 'when is it going to fall apart?'. Or even ones where it does go a bit wrong but you see riders who really help their horse out.

I can't remember who it was at the Olympics (Caroline Chew?) whose horse was suuuuper tense but she just rode it nicely and helped him/her out. Okay it's not a winning test but to me that's more rewarding to watch. Most of the earlier on tests in the Olympics I quite liked but when we got the 'the top', I just didn't really get it anymore.
 
We all have our own opinions , I like the way Catherine rides and enjoyed that test. I loved watching Valero but when Totilas came on the scene I feel that too many people wanted to emulate the way he moved and we now have many horses who have extravagant front leg movement without the hinds matching and too many horses pushed into BTV which results in stressed uncomfortable horses. Lately we have seen some improvement and I hope it will carry on.. it’s mainly dependent on how the judges mark and they have seemed to improved a bit
 
SaddlePsych'D said:
For me it's not that horses should never be stressed or tense in competition, but that when they are it should be very clearly reflected in the marks awarded. Not held up as the pinnacle of the sport. I struggled with watching that test. I know research is happening more and more, but I'm just not sure that the physics/mechanics of what is happening in the horses' mouths is really being recognised.

The most enjoyable tests to watch for me personally, at any level, are the potentially boring ones; where it just looks easy between horse and rider and there's a general vibe of 'they've got this' not 'when is it going to fall apart?'. Or even ones where it does go a bit wrong but you see riders who really help their horse out.

I can't remember who it was at the Olympics (Caroline Chew?) whose horse was suuuuper tense but she just rode it nicely and helped him/her out. Okay it's not a winning test but to me that's more rewarding to watch. Most of the earlier on tests in the Olympics I quite liked but when we got the 'the top', I just didn't really get it anymore.
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I loved watching Gareth Hughes and Classic Briolinca, she was a very tense mare and rarely featured at the very top of the scores but I felt she was very correct in her way of going but wasn’t flashy enough for the judges and I felt she was undermarked
 
splashgirl45 said:
I loved watching Gareth Hughes and Classic Briolinca, she was a very tense mare and rarely featured at the very top of the scores but I felt she was very correct in her way of going but wasn’t flashy enough for the judges and I felt she was undermarked
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Briolinca warming up looked like she was about to go into a hunter class before he picked her up 😅
 
Burnttoast said:
horsesport.com

Isabell Werth Responds to 'Open Mouths' Debate

The seven-time Olympian says the multiple frames-per-second capability of modern cameras can misleadingly convey that open mouths are a constant state of affairs.
horsesport.com horsesport.com

Apparently it's all half-halts so that's ok then
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Except that we're all watching video, not stills, and can see the mouths that are constantly open?
.
 
The horse in this (reining) video has never worn a bridle or bit, and has only ever been ridden in a neckrope, even when being broken in. Her owner is dedicated to making her feel confident in all situations, and has taken the time to make her feel at ease in this sort of setting. If you want to skip the intro, she enters the ring about 1min15. This video is from Jan 2024 when she was just a 6yo.

Her owner focuses on helping her manage her emotions as well as her body, and works with her consent in mind. Given freedom to leave, it is much easier to hear what they are expressing, and there is no possibility to just crush it down and make them carry on.

THIS, in my opinion, is what the dressage world is lacking - the acknowledgement that the horse's input and opinions matter, and the desire to train them in a truly sympathetic way, where the horse feels present and safe.

Luke has a FB page where he posts alot of clips and explanations of the training he does at home with Chloe (in the video) and his other horses.

(This post is in reply to some earlier ones claiming that it is inevitable that horses will show significant tension and stress in show-type situations. If you train them to feel confident in those situations, they feel confident, so they don't show immense stress. It is much more likely, in my opinion, that it is how they are trained and what they are experiencing at the time which causes the expressions of pain and stress - or at least that is a very large part of it.)
 
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PurpleSpots said:
The horse in this (reining) video has never worn a bridle or bit, and has only ever been ridden in a neckrope, even when being broken in. Her owner is dedicated to making her feel confident in all situations, and has taken the time to make her feel at ease in this sort of setting. If you want to skip the intro, she enters the ring about 1min15. This video is from Jan 2024 when she was just a 6yo.

Her owner focuses on helping her manage her emotions as well as her body, and works with her consent in mind. Given freedom to leave, it is much easier to hear what they are expressing, and there is no possibility to just crush it down and make them carry on.

THIS, in my opinion, is what the dressage world is lacking - the acknowledgement that the horse's input and opinions matter, and the desire to train them in a truly sympathetic way, where the horse feels present and safe.

Luke has a FB page where he posts alot of clips and explanations of the training he does at home with Chloe (in the video) and his other horses.

(This post is in reply to some earlier ones claiming that it is inevitable that horses will show significant tension and stress in show-type situations. If you train them to feel confident in those situations, they feel confident, so they don't show immense stress. It is much more likely, in my opinion, that it is how they are trained and what they are experiencing at the time which causes the expressions of pain and stress - or at least that is a very large part of it.)
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His sitting trot makes we since but it's an impressive display.
.
 
ycbm said:
His sitting trot makes we since but it's an impressive display.
.
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Oh there are plenty of other aspects, but the overriding thing for me is - how does the horse feel. That is the bottom line in my book.

I would far rather be this horse than others who don't have their consent or feelings or input taken into account, and who are just 'used'.
 
ycbm said:
Except that we're all watching video, not stills, and can see the mouths that are constantly open?
.
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Isabel is squirming isn’t she… she says open mouth should be marked down, but until recently the judges have given huge marks to horses who are obviously being forced into an outline . I agree the still photos could be misleading but there are too many videos out there showing most of the test with mouths open and obviously uncomfortable… it seems that the authorities are scared to rebuke the top riders and the study of the lesions in the mouth were at a lower level . Would be very revealing if all of the top placed horses mouths were checked before being allowed to compete. They could be checked on entry to the warm up for lesions, wonder how many would be eliminated ?
 
Burnttoast said:
horsesport.com

Isabell Werth Responds to 'Open Mouths' Debate

The seven-time Olympian says the multiple frames-per-second capability of modern cameras can misleadingly convey that open mouths are a constant state of affairs.
horsesport.com horsesport.com

Apparently it's all half-halts so that's ok then
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“As you can see in the pictures Quantaz was, at times, putting downward pressure onto the curb and snaffle bits of the double bridle. This caused him to open his mouth."

The horse did it to himself, OBVIOUSLY.
 
"non-submissive" I don't like "submission" and I think we could change a lot with marking by changing that to something like relaxation or cooperation. Should a happy athlete be submissive? And, I wonder if this is why I've seen people here say they prefer eventing dressage? Is it that eventers tend to prefer not to force submission at all costs because you want an independent thinker 🤷‍♀️
 
Sorry, tried to add this as an ETA to my last post but had to do something else while writing it, and then my 60min to edit had expired.

One of my first reactions was about the sitting trot, but I have to defer to the horse on that score - she looks to remain soft through her body, without expression of negativity, so I have to interpret that she is ok with it, and that it doesn't affect her adversely.

Not only has she never worn a bridle of any sort, but she's going through patterns of immense difficulty, collecting and extending to minimal signals, through varying shapes, looking completely confident and settled and connected the whole time, in an unfamiliar arena with spotlights, a cheering crowd, loud music, and goodness knows what else.

Just imagine how it could be if those with dressage horses (and in other disciplines too) approached things in the same way - willing, contented horses, no blood, no damaged mouths, gentle closed mouths, soft rather than rolling eyes with whites showing, movements looking natural in competition with the horse able to use their body as they naturally would rather than contorted by restrictive and controlling tools to create an artificial picture, less physical breakdowns as a result of training as their bodies would only do what the horse felt able to do at the time rather than being physically compromised due to pressure and restraint... It could be so different.
 
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PurpleSpots said:
Sorry, tried to add this as an ETA to my last post but had to do something else while writing it, and then my 60min to edit had expired.

One of my first reactions was about the sitting trot, but I have to defer to the horse on that score - she looks to remain soft through her body, without expression of negativity, so I have to interpret that she is ok with it, and that it doesn't affect her adversely.

Not only has she never worn a bridle of any sort, but she's going through patterns of immense difficulty, collecting and extending to minimal signals, through varying shapes, looking completely confident and settled and connected the whole time, in an unfamiliar arena with spotlights, a cheering crowd, loud music, and goodness knows what else.

Just imagine how it could be if those with dressage horses (and in other disciplines too) approached things in the same way - willing, contented horses, no blood, no damaged mouths, gentle closed mouths, soft rather than rolling eyes with whites showing, movements looking natural in competition with the horse able to use their body as they naturally would rather than contorted by restrictive and controlling tools to create an artificial picture, less physical breakdowns as a result of training as their bodies would only do what the horse felt able to do at the time rather than being physically compromised due to pressure and restraint... It could be so different.
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ease isn't flashy though and - bear with me here through the galaxy-sized generalisation - modern dressage people seem to enjoy a flashy appearance above all else.

Going to watch your video again now I have a laptop to hand. Having sat on a trained doma vaquera horse and been astonished and thrilled by the extreme lightness of the required cues I can appreciate how this should not be thought of as special or difficult. It's just really good horsemanship and something dressage seems very short of these days.
 
smolmaus said:
“As you can see in the pictures Quantaz was, at times, putting downward pressure onto the curb and snaffle bits of the double bridle. This caused him to open his mouth."

The horse did it to himself, OBVIOUSLY.
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It wasn't that long ago (last year) she was saying the photos were faked. I can't keep up, honestly 😏
 
Burnttoast said:
ease isn't flashy though and - bear with me here through the galaxy-sized generalisation - modern dressage people seem to enjoy a flashy appearance above all else.

Going to watch your video again now I have a laptop to hand. Having sat on a trained doma vaquera horse and been astonished and thrilled by the extreme lightness of the required cues I can appreciate how this should not be thought of as special or difficult. It's just really good horsemanship and something dressage seems very short of these days.
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That's exactly it - it's not magic or witchcraft or rocket science, it's just working with the horse in a positive way which is sympathetic towards them. Horsemanship, as you say quite rightly. It is harder than using restriction and pressure to control them if that's all you're used to though. But change is possible.

I think the requirements for reining would tend towards perfection being more workmanlike than for dressage - after all, you'd not want to waste energy and time between steps with too much elevation when working cattle, so a flouncy above-the-ground gait would be penalised. But there shouldn't be any reason why the desirable qualities in a dressage horse couldn't be prioritised when training, especially as their gaits would set them up to being able to more easily offer the desired type of gaits. It's just a case of what you focus on and reward.

But I agree, I think too many see tension and stress as a desirable state for the horse to be in because of the effect it can have on the gaits. It's just so sad they don't realise you can get that humanely with softness and willingness.
 
Roxylola said:
"non-submissive" I don't like "submission" and I think we could change a lot with marking by changing that to something like relaxation or cooperation. Should a happy athlete be submissive? And, I wonder if this is why I've seen people here say they prefer eventing dressage? Is it that eventers tend to prefer not to force submission at all costs because you want an independent thinker 🤷‍♀️
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Not FEI, but the new BD tests no longer have a collective mark called "submission". It has been changed to "co-operation".

From the H&H article published back in 2023:

"Although a lot of the tests have not changed much, there has been a significant reduction in the collective marks, which BD hopes will level the playing field by rewarding good riding rather than just good horses.

The shift in terminology from “submission” to “cooperation” also feels significant in light of how BD is trying to put a greater focus on horse welfare."

Link here for the whole article: https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/new-british-dressage-tests-and-rules-2024-844907

For PSG and above, i.e. FEI tests, there is one General Impression mark at the end, which does not include the word submission.

"General Impression (harmonious presentation of the rider/horse combination; rider’s position and seat, discreet and effective influence of the aids)"

Obviously how judges decide to interpret these collective marks is subjective.
 
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