Goldie's mum
Well-Known Member
That's surely a trekking business? You don't need to be giving lessons to come under licencing laws.
Cheeky/ridiculous posts you see on Facebook.
- Thread starter MyDogIsAnIdiot
- Start date
Mrs B
Well-Known Member
Anyone else noticed a sudden increase in people wanting to loan pretty much perfect horses? (often for a daughter who's been riding for 'a few years')
Typically wanting around 14.3hh to 16.2hh, must be good to hack alone and in company, no vices, be able to pop a jump and school etc etc ... usually the only concession is 'don't mind if it's a bit older ...'
Typically wanting around 14.3hh to 16.2hh, must be good to hack alone and in company, no vices, be able to pop a jump and school etc etc ... usually the only concession is 'don't mind if it's a bit older ...'
SilverLinings
Well-Known Member
I did realise that, but she seems to think that she can get around it by approaching it from the position that the other people are 'sharers'. Someone in the village rang the council about it but they weren't interested when they found out she only has 4 horses (I don't know how the person phrased it to the council, or who they spoke to). It's just made me wonder with all the posts about at the moment with people trying to get paid sharers for multiple horses how many of them are pushing the legal boundaries too far.
I've seen a few cases recently where the amount being asked for is far more than the horse can cost to keep, so if the owner is making a regular profit then surely it is a business of sorts? Particularly when they have several sharers for one horse, all of whom are paying.
I know horses are an expensive hobby, but there seems to be more and more people who expect to be able to get someone else to fund their hobby. 5-10 years ago it seemed as though owners more felt that the sharer was helping them out, whereas nowadays a lot of them seem to think that they are doing the sharer a favour, and should be paid handsomely for it.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
Is there actually a breast harness on it or is it pulling the cart by the saddle?The state of the little Shetland
SilverLinings
Well-Known Member
I can't see one
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
Me neither. Look well if everything slid backwardsI can't see one
Cinnamontoast
Fais pas chier!
But they’re saying is to go towards vet fees/livery/care for their horses, so surely personal gain? Odd people!
Dave's Mam
Well-Known Member
Exactly.
teapot
Well-Known Member
Hire for reward in any form requires a riding school licence. A few people/places tried to break the rules during Covid
To be in scope, they must hire out horses for riding, or instruction in riding.
This could include:
- riding schools
- loan horses
- hunter hirelings
- pony and donkey rides
- polo instruction
- pony parties where the ponies are ridden
- pony party businesses where none of the ponies are ever ridden (these should be licensed as animal exhibits)
- activities that are carried out solely for military or police purposes
- riding stables that are used solely for instructing university veterinary students with their studies
- people who occasionally lend a horse, even if a small fee is charged, where there is no profit made and no intent to make a profit
- people who hire out horses and have a trading income below the current HMRC trading income allowance
Widgeon
Well-Known Member
This is the only possible loophole I can see in this case, but the threshold is £1000 per year, and if she can afford not to work then she's definitely exceeding that.
SilverLinings
Well-Known Member
I am aware of the rules, hence being surprised by the council being disinterested, especially as (as you mention) there were cases pursued during covid. I wonder if it's just not worth it to them to bother to investigate. Mind you, I only know of two actual RS in this whole council ward so maybe the staff aren't clued up on legislation.Hire for reward in any form requires a riding school licence. A few people/places tried to break the rules during Covid
To be in scope, they must hire out horses for riding, or instruction in riding.
This could include:
Activities that fulfil one or more of the following criteria do not require a licence:
- riding schools
- loan horses
- hunter hirelings
- pony and donkey rides
- polo instruction
- pony parties where the ponies are ridden
- pony party businesses where none of the ponies are ever ridden (these should be licensed as animal exhibits)
- activities that are carried out solely for military or police purposes
- riding stables that are used solely for instructing university veterinary students with their studies
- people who occasionally lend a horse, even if a small fee is charged, where there is no profit made and no intent to make a profit
- people who hire out horses and have a trading income below the current HMRC trading income allowance
That allowance is quite low when spread out over a year. I expect quite a lot of owners with share arrangements get more than £83.33 per month (only £19.23 a week) from their 'sharers', particularly where there is a horse being shared by more than one person, or the owner has sharers for more than one horse. The wording also states that the horse is only 'occasionally' lent out, so sharing would breach that too. Even if they were below the £1000annual limit if the costs can't clearly be justified (e.g. the sharer has the horse for exactly 50% of the week and pays 50% or less of the total costs) then I think they could be seen to be breaking the law.
The legal aspect aside, I worry about the (particularly novice) sharers, as if there is a serious accident I can imagine the owner's insurance company would decline to pay if they knew the circumstances. That would also apply to any other victims, e.g. in a traffic incident involving the horse and sharer.
I think the traditional share arrangements - where the owner gets help and the sharer gets a horse to ride and pays towards shoeing etc - are great, but there seems to be more owners around now who are looking to make a profit from the arrangement, and pitch themselves as 'cheaper than going to a RS'.
I'll stop ranting now! I can fixate on rules, and I really struggle to understand why people go against them when the rule is clear and logical (ASD), but I will stop clogging up the thread
teapot
Well-Known Member
I am aware of the rules, hence being surprised by the council being disinterested, especially as (as you mention) there were cases pursued during covid. I wonder if it's just not worth it to them to bother to investigate. Mind you, I only know of two actual RS in this whole council ward so maybe the staff aren't clued up on legislation.
That allowance is quite low when spread out over a year. I expect quite a lot of owners with share arrangements get more than £83.33 per month (only £19.23 a week) from their 'sharers', particularly where there is a horse being shared by more than one person, or the owner has sharers for more than one horse. The wording also states that the horse is only 'occasionally' lent out, so sharing would breach that too. Even if they were below the £1000annual limit if the costs can't clearly be justified (e.g. the sharer has the horse for exactly 50% of the week and pays 50% or less of the total costs) then I think they could be seen to be breaking the law.
The legal aspect aside, I worry about the (particularly novice) sharers, as if there is a serious accident I can imagine the owner's insurance company would decline to pay if they knew the circumstances. That would also apply to any other victims, e.g. in a traffic incident involving the horse and sharer.
I think the traditional share arrangements - where the owner gets help and the sharer gets a horse to ride and pays towards shoeing etc - are great, but there seems to be more owners around now who are looking to make a profit from the arrangement, and pitch themselves as 'cheaper than going to a RS'.
I'll stop ranting now! I can fixate on rules, and I really struggle to understand why people go against them when the rule is clear and logical (ASD), but I will stop clogging up the thread
How do they advertise - website or social media? As either way, if it's operating like a riding school/trekking centre, they HAVE to have their approved number publicly available. A quick call to the council saying I want to ride at x, but can't find their licensing info may well spring them into action. You need to ensure you speak to the right person at the council though. You're also assuming the owner has insurance - so few people ask for proof before booking something because the default is to assume it's all in place.
I take a dim view on people who flout the licensing rules, partly because I've been involved with council inspections and the amount of paperwork that's now requried (another reason why people try and avoid it!). Also said human will need proof of experience if they don't meet the qualifications needed as part of the requirements to operate legally.
Widgeon
Well-Known Member
I can fixate on rules, and I really struggle to understand why people go against them when the rule is clear and logical (ASD), but I will stop clogging up the thread
I don't think you're being unreasonable here, she's breaching the rules in several ways. But I think the answer is that she's breaching the rules because she's greedy, and no one is pulling her up on it because our councils and law enforcement agencies are way overstretched and no longer do their jobs. Those are not good or justifiable answers though, are they!
Canelloni
Member
Omg this was my youth!! The smoking! The dodgy van! The bareback trips up the road to turnout !! Happy days
Cowpony
Well-Known Member
I'd completely forgotten that post! But it's all absolutely true
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
Part of a Facebook ad 
. . I should hope he isn't.
" Isn’t gangrenous but needs someone confident as he is can try use his size to pull you to the field ect again getting better the more it is done. "
. . I should hope he isn't." Isn’t gangrenous but needs someone confident as he is can try use his size to pull you to the field ect again getting better the more it is done. "
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
Same here
. Helpers ride was a 9am Saturday morning hack to get the bounce and buck out of the ponies ready for the 10am lesson.Hay chopping with a lethal manual chopper pictured in another thread.
Occasional trips out to the beach in an ancient wagon driven by an old bloke who would perv on the teenagers and have them sit squashed up to him in the cab.
Mrs B
Well-Known Member
This evening:
'Looking for a full loan to move yards.
14.3-15.2hh but will accept bigger if its the right fit
Mare or gelding
Must be able to live out all year round 24/7
Must be able to hack alone and in company
No tbs
Must be able to jump and load.
Nothing younger than 7
To move to ****
Private yard and loving home awaits'
'Looking for a full loan to move yards.
14.3-15.2hh but will accept bigger if its the right fit
Mare or gelding
Must be able to live out all year round 24/7
Must be able to hack alone and in company
No tbs
Must be able to jump and load.
Nothing younger than 7
To move to ****
Private yard and loving home awaits'
JBM
Well-Known Member
Those getting more and more common
Seen a few “be jumping a meter”
Mrs B
Well-Known Member
toppedoff
Well-Known Member
Wanted
3.5 to hire for approx 8 weeks,
but not at 1500(which we have been told)
Will be used a handle of times!!
3.5 to hire for approx 8 weeks,
but not at 1500(which we have been told)
Will be used a handle of times!!
Abacus
Well-Known Member
Elf On A Shelf
...
Maybe they are basing it on the price the horses last went through the bloodstock sales at. Which is way more than the market value for them as riding horses.
Or they could just be completely delusional.
Ceifer
Well-Known Member
I know horse prices are all over the place but there is a 5 year old just broken dressage bred horse for sale. Sire is well known dresssge horse, dam is a homebred. Conformation doesn’t look great, very green in the video, 35k.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
1500 seems a good price to meWanted
3.5 to hire for approx 8 weeks,
but not at 1500(which we have been told)
Will be used a handle of times!!
neddy man
Well-Known Member
If it's the total price for 8 weeks it's a bargain , plus insurance plus mileage charges? Round here its £100 plus per day to hire a 3.5
ester
Not slacking multitasking
Yup I was working on £100 a day
abbijay
Well-Known Member
So just hire for the handle (sic.) of times?!Wanted
3.5 to hire for approx 8 weeks,
but not at 1500(which we have been told)
Will be used a handle of times!!
Surbie
Well-Known Member
Our local one does monthly hire at £700ish in winter, so about right.Wanted
3.5 to hire for approx 8 weeks,
but not at 1500(which we have been told)
Will be used a handle of times!!
Surbie
Well-Known Member
Same here! Though far, far less riding! No PC rallies, just one group lesson per day's work. YO was seriouslyOmg this was my youth!! The smoking! The dodgy van! The bareback trips up the road to turnout !! Happy days
Don't forget, not allowed in anywhere warm in winter so packed lunches eaten sat in the middle of the muckheap, on a horrible old NZ rug.