Poingsettia
Well-Known Member
Seen this happen on a yard. Horse was 13hh plus all day long but they got it down to 12.2 for certificate. Rosette hunters.
Cheeky/ridiculous posts you see on Facebook.
- Thread starter MyDogIsAnIdiot
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Snowfilly
Well-Known Member
Fairly common, it goes on enough in showing that there’s an ‘accepted’ way of doing it. And for breed societies that require ponies to be under a certain height.
The nice way is teaching the pony to stand fully relaxed, head down, as relaxed as possible, can shave a bit off. Fresh but ethical trim helps too.
Beyond that, it’s exercise really hard just beforehand, don’t water for 24 hours, pare feet down that morning to the least sole possible and in the worst cases, prick the withers with a pin so the pony learns to cringe when you put something across it. And these are just the things I’ve heard talked about openly at shows.
I feel like height checks ought to be done at the end of a week when the horse is only in the care of the official staff but who would ever pay for their horse to be on full livery like that for a week? But it would do away with a lot of the cruelty in it, not to mention the cheating.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
A friend of mine arrived at a dealers yard to see a very tired looking horse trudging around the horse walker. Dealer happily explained "that's being shrunk for a height certificate” and told her it had been in the walker all night.
Jenko109
Well-Known Member
Disgusting. I know it goes on, but my god.
The barbaric lengths that people will go to in the pursuit of a ribbon.
Scary thing is, there are probably forum members who partake in these practices.
The barbaric lengths that people will go to in the pursuit of a ribbon.
Scary thing is, there are probably forum members who partake in these practices.
Mari
Well-Known Member
I thought this!
conniegirl
Well-Known Member
It shows that non of you have had a horse measured recently.
Vets now have to do a full examination of the horse before they measure. If the horse shows sensitivity anywhere then they are not allowed to measure. That includes checking the feet.
The horse also has to be offered water in the presence of the vet 15 mins before measuring.
Any signs of exhaustion or sedation and the vet cannot measure them.
Back handers and dodgy vets are about the only way to get an over height horse in now.
That said many people are very bad at seeing height.
Ive had a pony who everyone said would be well over. I clipped the hair off his withers, had his shoes taken off and a normal trim the morning of the measurement, had him used to the stick so he was relaxed and he measured under by over 1cm
Vets now have to do a full examination of the horse before they measure. If the horse shows sensitivity anywhere then they are not allowed to measure. That includes checking the feet.
The horse also has to be offered water in the presence of the vet 15 mins before measuring.
Any signs of exhaustion or sedation and the vet cannot measure them.
Back handers and dodgy vets are about the only way to get an over height horse in now.
That said many people are very bad at seeing height.
Ive had a pony who everyone said would be well over. I clipped the hair off his withers, had his shoes taken off and a normal trim the morning of the measurement, had him used to the stick so he was relaxed and he measured under by over 1cm
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The Xmas Furry
🦄 🦄
I just stopped typing my reply, yours is spot on. I had B last measured in 2019, exactly the same regs then, she measured 0.7 under breed standard, I didnt cut any mane either.
Hearsay from posters further up is very daft to be keeping on repeating, what happened 30 or more years ago isn't permitted whatsoever.
IrishMilo
Well-Known Member
It's not hearsay, at all. I know for a fact that unfortunately these practices still go on...
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
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The Xmas Furry
🦄 🦄
Have you reported them?
humblepie
Well-Known Member
Could equally need height cert for jumping. Not necessarily showing.
Poingsettia
Well-Known Member
I know what I saw.
SilverLinings
Well-Known Member
The practice I worked at years ago carried out LHC measurements on a fairly regular basis, and at the time was the only practice in the county to do so. around 15-20% of the horses the vet suspected that the owners had possibly done something unethical (e.g. horse cringing away from the stick, looking very tired etc) but it wasn't obvious enough to turn them away.
Unfortunately I would say that as much as 10% of the total number of horses presented the vets had to turn away for blatant ethical reasons, the most common being extreme dehydration and severe foot trimming (horses lame all round as a result); they were always horses that were clearly over-height. A small number would learn their lesson and return some weeks later to be measured properly. The majority we never saw again, and some of them must have got their certificates from somewhere as I later saw them contesting HOYS qualifiers (at the height the owner/trainer had wanted them to measure in at when first presented at the vets). They would have had to have travelled quite far to another registered measurement vet but I presume they thought that preferable to putting the horse's welfare first. If they found a vet who'd turn a blind eye is there now something in place to stop that happening?
I was last directly aware this was going on in around 2012; I am glad there are posters saying that this doesn't happen now and I hope that's the case.
Unfortunately I would say that as much as 10% of the total number of horses presented the vets had to turn away for blatant ethical reasons, the most common being extreme dehydration and severe foot trimming (horses lame all round as a result); they were always horses that were clearly over-height. A small number would learn their lesson and return some weeks later to be measured properly. The majority we never saw again, and some of them must have got their certificates from somewhere as I later saw them contesting HOYS qualifiers (at the height the owner/trainer had wanted them to measure in at when first presented at the vets). They would have had to have travelled quite far to another registered measurement vet but I presume they thought that preferable to putting the horse's welfare first. If they found a vet who'd turn a blind eye is there now something in place to stop that happening?
I was last directly aware this was going on in around 2012; I am glad there are posters saying that this doesn't happen now and I hope that's the case.
humblepie
Well-Known Member
There was a spell of horses travelling half way across the country to one measurer in particular around that time. That came to light and I think was dealt with - without googling the history I don’t have more info. My horse stood second to a much decorated champion horse that subsequently measured out by 6 cms. Unsurprisingly lost any respect for that person. I think if has improved since then.
conniegirl
Well-Known Member
Dodgy vets dont need abused ponies, they are happy to misread a stick.
I think it was about then (maybe slightly later) that a vet was struck off for dodgy measurements and nearly 1000 ponies remeasured. It was at that stage that they brought the new measures in such as vets having to offer water to the pony 15 mins before measuring.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Official measuring has undoubtedly improved. I think it would be naive to believe that abuses don't still happen when horses and ponies are measured within hours of arriving at the measuring place when there is so much money at stake if a pony measures in or over.
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Julia0803
Well-Known Member
PLEASE NO MORE TIME WASTERS
Looking for a safe happy hacker, schooling and low level showing type 15.2-16.2hh
Genuine horse with good manners on the ground and ridden must be able to hack alone! Would prefer with tack
No ongoing health issues or vices
No cobs or heavy types
Will consider full loan / lwvtb or just full sale, based in Devon and willing to travel up to 2 hours away
Budget: 2-2.5 (can change for right horse)
Pic for attention
If you could buy an allrounder that is safe and sensible, with no health issues, happy to hack alone and in co, good manners and tack included for £2k.... I'd take five!!
Looking for a safe happy hacker, schooling and low level showing type 15.2-16.2hh
Genuine horse with good manners on the ground and ridden must be able to hack alone! Would prefer with tack
No ongoing health issues or vices
No cobs or heavy types
Will consider full loan / lwvtb or just full sale, based in Devon and willing to travel up to 2 hours away
Budget: 2-2.5 (can change for right horse)
Pic for attention
If you could buy an allrounder that is safe and sensible, with no health issues, happy to hack alone and in co, good manners and tack included for £2k.... I'd take five!!
Snowfilly
Well-Known Member
I’ve got a hobby horse and some Julip models that may fit the bill and the price tag…
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
I love the "will consider" bit in particular. Like yes I'm sure one would be at least a bit open to the idea of the perfect horse being free or have now pay later!
Snowfilly
Well-Known Member
I suppose being fair there’s the chance of a gap year or university loan from someone…very slim but not entirely off the charts.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Xxx- share/part loan
Xxx is a 5 year old xxx
Xxxx is up for share a few days a week/part loan, due to not having enough hours in the day.
She is a well handled and well mannered, as long as she knows she can’t walk over you! Xxx is currently fit and ready to carry on her education. Has a lovely jump on her, has been out to some local shows, arena hires, woods, beach and recently XC hire. She is a typical baby who needs the consistency to her work and someone to further her education. Xxx will hack in group company fine, however when taken out by herself will rear and bunny hop home. However she has done some long lining out to try to improve this. Well behaved on the lunge, lovely to school and has come on far the past few months.
However horses aren’t always that simple, xxx is a known rearer and is nappy - this is when she rears she then bunny hops you forward. She hasn’t done this in a few months at home however, when taken out to a show she isn’t keen on leaving others and this is when she will start to do it. Can be nappy towards others. But with consistency of going out I don’t see why this can’t be overcome.
Absolutely NO NOVICES as she isn’t simple and is a much loved horse. Will only accept someone who is compatible with xxx as she is quick to learn.
Small financial contribution will be required.
Please let me pay YOU to re school your nappy horse for you
Xxx is a 5 year old xxx
Xxxx is up for share a few days a week/part loan, due to not having enough hours in the day.
She is a well handled and well mannered, as long as she knows she can’t walk over you! Xxx is currently fit and ready to carry on her education. Has a lovely jump on her, has been out to some local shows, arena hires, woods, beach and recently XC hire. She is a typical baby who needs the consistency to her work and someone to further her education. Xxx will hack in group company fine, however when taken out by herself will rear and bunny hop home. However she has done some long lining out to try to improve this. Well behaved on the lunge, lovely to school and has come on far the past few months.
However horses aren’t always that simple, xxx is a known rearer and is nappy - this is when she rears she then bunny hops you forward. She hasn’t done this in a few months at home however, when taken out to a show she isn’t keen on leaving others and this is when she will start to do it. Can be nappy towards others. But with consistency of going out I don’t see why this can’t be overcome.
Absolutely NO NOVICES as she isn’t simple and is a much loved horse. Will only accept someone who is compatible with xxx as she is quick to learn.
Small financial contribution will be required.
Please let me pay YOU to re school your nappy horse for you
Titchy Reindeer
Well-Known Member
Call me crazy, but I'm currently riding a horse (not my own) that sounds rather similar to the one in the advert: green, nappy, known rearer... However, she's on livery, I'm not paying anything to ride her, no jobs bar grooming and tacking up, and just rock up and ride her whenever I want. What I get out of it is to ride a horse that has potentially more athletic quality than I could ever afford to buy (assuming I can somehow bring out that potential!) and I'm certainly pushing my comfort limits and learning a lot while doing it.Xxx- share/part loan
Xxx is a 5 year old xxx
Xxxx is up for share a few days a week/part loan, due to not having enough hours in the day.
She is a well handled and well mannered, as long as she knows she can’t walk over you! Xxx is currently fit and ready to carry on her education. Has a lovely jump on her, has been out to some local shows, arena hires, woods, beach and recently XC hire. She is a typical baby who needs the consistency to her work and someone to further her education. Xxx will hack in group company fine, however when taken out by herself will rear and bunny hop home. However she has done some long lining out to try to improve this. Well behaved on the lunge, lovely to school and has come on far the past few months.
However horses aren’t always that simple, xxx is a known rearer and is nappy - this is when she rears she then bunny hops you forward. She hasn’t done this in a few months at home however, when taken out to a show she isn’t keen on leaving others and this is when she will start to do it. Can be nappy towards others. But with consistency of going out I don’t see why this can’t be overcome.
Absolutely NO NOVICES as she isn’t simple and is a much loved horse. Will only accept someone who is compatible with xxx as she is quick to learn.
Small financial contribution will be required.
Please let me pay YOU to re school your nappy horse for you
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
I think the main difference being the ad was wanting a financial contribution, on top of the fact that to do a good job schooling a nappy young horse is work that has paid value (as it should for the skills and risk involved).
It's great if you are happy with the set up you have and I have known others do it when they were taking the horse out competing so it can be mutually beneficial.
Titchy Reindeer
Well-Known Member
Yes, I think you are right, I wouldn't have answered that advert either (I always that however bad the advert is, the reality is worse!).
In my case, is great to know that I can do as little or as much as I want, knowing that the more work I put in, the more I will hopefully get out of her, and I can walk away if it all becomes too much, there will always be a nice quiet riding school pony to keep me ticking over until Little Madam (hopefully) finishes her maternity leave.
Annagain
Well-Known Member
I understand the height limits for SJ and can see that a limit, no matter how arbitrary, is easy to police but I think I'd prefer something in the rules about the pony being an appropriate size for the age group of the rider - so under 10, under 12, under 14 and under 16 so there'd still be a rough limit but with a bit of leeway as long as people weren't taking the p1$$.
For showing however, particularly for breed classes, I don't understand why people are so precious about heights. You see 'overheight' Connemaras all the time who can't enter classes or even be registered as Connemaras - they're still Connemaras in every other way! If they're larger than the breed standard, they could be marked down in a class but they still might be 'correct' in every other way and a better example of the breed than a horse half a centimetre smaller. Likewise, a horse that is a fraction over 15.2 can't be a small hunter, but neither can it really be a hunter as they should start at 16hh. Once they're over 16hh though, they have the option of three weights of hunter, not height at all (although I appreciate a taller horse is often likely to be suited to the heavyweight section). The difference in weights to me is a more sensible demarcation for classes. Surely the overall impression of the horse (that of course can take a suitable height range into account) is what matters rather than an arbitrarily applied height? By all means use height for guidance to help people choose their classes, but I don't really understand why it has to be so finite.
I know measuring practices are different these days but rules that allow an element of interpretation would have stopped horses being abused in the name of measuring in for years.
SilverLinings
Well-Known Member
I suppose that classes have to be defined/limited in some way otherwise it would just be everyone in the same class. For breeds I can see your point about the height limit being a bit odd and ruling out lots of good specimens, but I suspect it is there in an attempt to avoid loosing the traditional 'type' for that breed. E.g. if you allow Connemaras of any height in a Connemara class then eventually all of them may end up 16hh, and the traditional/original Connemara will have been lost. As there are now many over-height Connemaras I think there would be scope to run a separate class for them if someone was interested in doing so.
For SJ there has to be set height limits as a 16.2hh horse will (usually) have far more scope than a 13.2hh pony, so if there wasn't a height limit there would be no point in ever entering 13.2hh ponies in SJ classes as they would be very unlikely to place against much bigger horses.*
Height limits in classes keeps the variety between breeds and types, and means that there is usually a class for everyone. Unfortunately when there are rules someone will always try to bend them, so when that might impact on the horse (e.g. height measurement) the organisation(s) involved needs to be very strict at policing the practice and punishing rule breakers.
*I am aware of Stroller, and some horses will be the exception, but in general if you have two horses of equal ability the larger one will be able to clear larger fences.
For SJ there has to be set height limits as a 16.2hh horse will (usually) have far more scope than a 13.2hh pony, so if there wasn't a height limit there would be no point in ever entering 13.2hh ponies in SJ classes as they would be very unlikely to place against much bigger horses.*
Height limits in classes keeps the variety between breeds and types, and means that there is usually a class for everyone. Unfortunately when there are rules someone will always try to bend them, so when that might impact on the horse (e.g. height measurement) the organisation(s) involved needs to be very strict at policing the practice and punishing rule breakers.
*I am aware of Stroller, and some horses will be the exception, but in general if you have two horses of equal ability the larger one will be able to clear larger fences.
Lois Lame
Well-Known Member
That one really takes my breath away.
Glitter's fun
Well-Known Member
Ahh, at last. I've been longing for some free hassle..
Wanted horses&ponies
willing to travel
No colts please from
Youngsters to ridding horses PM free hassle
Wanted horses&ponies
willing to travel
No colts please from
Youngsters to ridding horses PM free hassle
cauda equina
Well-Known Member
Presumably ridding horses are ones you want to get rid of - as in 'I am ridding myself of my horses'
toppedoff
Well-Known Member
The name part got me hooked 
"Buyer never showed so let’s make a full ad on this pretty sob now that I’ve got my hands on him.
The names lefty cause he ain’t right
13 hands of hell waiting to release his wrath upon the next lucky man
He’s spent 6/7 years out smarting owners so if you think your college degree is better than this pony’s show up w/ cash in hand & a trailer.
He’s phenomenal if you like to sit & look at one from a distance but god forbid you stick your hand in the cage with this tiger king so that being said this sucker could benefit from a few come to Jesus meetings & maybe a therapy session with Clinton Anderson or 2…
Bought him on the loose & seen him a month before somewhere else on the loose & was wilder than some of these horse traders wives when there man isn’t around. Figured he settle down w/ a good ole touch of punchy 8s sweet love but I think I got got
The only thing this sucker needs is Jesus… Jk ( not really )
Waspy • watchy & disrespectful & I ain’t gonna attempt to stick a saddle on this sucker… ( my health insurance is expired )
Ties
Leads
Loads
& is supposed to lunge… at you or in the round pen I couldn’t tell ya but that’s the rumor.
8.0.0 $ OBO
Carbon Tx
Test handling is welcome but life insurance policy in hand is a must."
"Buyer never showed so let’s make a full ad on this pretty sob now that I’ve got my hands on him.
The names lefty cause he ain’t right
13 hands of hell waiting to release his wrath upon the next lucky man
He’s spent 6/7 years out smarting owners so if you think your college degree is better than this pony’s show up w/ cash in hand & a trailer. He’s phenomenal if you like to sit & look at one from a distance but god forbid you stick your hand in the cage with this tiger king so that being said this sucker could benefit from a few come to Jesus meetings & maybe a therapy session with Clinton Anderson or 2…
Bought him on the loose & seen him a month before somewhere else on the loose & was wilder than some of these horse traders wives when there man isn’t around. Figured he settle down w/ a good ole touch of punchy 8s sweet love but I think I got got
The only thing this sucker needs is Jesus… Jk ( not really )
Waspy • watchy & disrespectful & I ain’t gonna attempt to stick a saddle on this sucker… ( my health insurance is expired )
Ties
Leads
Loads
& is supposed to lunge… at you or in the round pen I couldn’t tell ya but that’s the rumor.
8.0.0 $ OBO
Carbon Tx
Test handling is welcome but life insurance policy in hand is a must."