Clifton Promise tests + for banned substance post Burghley

[JFTDWS]

The A sample will have been re checked several times before this announcement so margin for error is very small and unlikely to reoccur over several checks. I am not condemning the guy in any way as I hope the B comes back clear , just trying to show that this is very unlikely to occur.

I'm not sure that your basis for that statement is very sound though. And I speak as someone who has performed these sorts of tests myself, though obviously not for the FEI! Depending on the exact nature of the test (which I can't find a definitive statement confirming), the A sample may not have been sufficient for repeated testing, and indeed technical repetitions may have been of little value.

ETA - I do agree that it is unlikely that the B sample will give a different result. My point is that there is a margin for error in diagnostic testing which shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

 

[Bestdogdash]

This is scurrilous at best. Plenty of riders will check their own horses. The rules are that anyone going into the stables late are escorted to their stable by a steward and then back out again so actions would be seen. Remember that Jock's other horse was carrying an injury so it is even more likely that someone of his caring nature would check his boys were comfortable for the night. The two blood incidents are totally unrelated. Promise bit his tongue and had blood round his lips - not altogether surprising as he had his tongue out of the side of his mouth. Lush banged his nose on the elephant trap (clearly visible on the video) which caused a nosebleed. I wonder, would you be saying the same if it was a top British rider that you had seen in the stables late in the evening? Anyone doubting Jock's character should listen to Andrew Nicholson's interview that is linked earlier in this thread. His thoughts on Jock are genuine and he is the one to gain most from a Burghley disqualification.

I have no idea if he is guilty or not but wanted to say that this ^^^
is incorrect. I own an international eventer and, providing you have the correct stable pass, no one accompanies you to the stables. I regularly go see him late at night for a final check and carrot and no one has ever been with with me.

I would also say too many coincidences herE - the biggest being that five lower placed horses randomly tested showed that four were negative and the fifth Jock's 14th placed horse, tested positive.

 

[popsdosh]

I have no idea if he is guilty or not but wanted to say that this ^^^
is incorrect. I own an international eventer and, providing you have the correct stable pass, no one accompanies you to the stables. I regularly go see him late at night for a final check and carrot and no one has ever been with with me.

I would also say too many coincidences herE - the biggest being that five lower placed horses randomly tested showed that four were negative and the fifth Jock's 14th placed horse, tested positive.

The 14th placed horse was not Jocks but Kevin mcnabs however they are closely linked! They also share a co owner.

 

[sportsmansB]

I have groomed at several internationals and can confirm that riders (even those who don't bother at home) are VERY likely to check their horses late on XC night. It might be the only late check they do all year (for some!)
I would be so gutted for Jock if this turned out to be a genuine mistake- many riders rely on their vets, grooms and supplement manufacturers combined with their own experience to avoid this situation, but none of them are scientists and keeping up with the latest issues and various different names and terminologies is a minefield.
Fingers crossed there is a good outcome. Seems unlikely though that B sample will be any different- surely it is in case of contamination in the A, and if KMcN's was positive too that would be a big coincidence.

 

[cptrayes]

Could reserpine have been used to calm the horse for the dressage, in the belief that there was not yet a test for it? Presumably even though it is long acting, the sheer adrenaline of the cross country overcomes it?

 

[silu]

When there is lots of money involved in any equine discipline the pressure to cheat using banned substances increases. There have been quite a few cases even in junior show jumping . Eventing and Endurance both seem to have changed dramatically over recent years and lost their predominately amateur status regrettably.

 

[popsdosh]

Could reserpine have been used to calm the horse for the dressage, in the belief that there was not yet a test for it? Presumably even though it is long acting, the sheer adrenaline of the cross country overcomes it?

Unlikely scenario ,it would be like playing russian roulette going round a 4* there are other possible reasons to use it .I just hope its been accidental.

 

[wilde2]

Unlikely scenario ,it would be like playing russian roulette going round a 4* there are other possible reasons to use it .I just hope its been accidental.

Ok, firstly I want to say this question is for information only, not implying that it is pertinent to this case. While I have heard rumours of this being a problem across equestrian disciplines, I always assumed this was at lower levels where the chance of being tested was more remote, or at higher levels where there is no chance of winning. Maybe I am being naïve - however, if you know you are going to be tested if you win, I cannot see why anyone that is in with a chance of winning would even consider this, regardless of the moral stance. From a pure numbers game, for an on form Badminton winner, surely there was a good chance of him winning Burghley? While still obviously a huge and amazing achievement, each year there is less competition than Badminton isn't there as there has always been a championship prior to it so the team horses are missing? Anyway, that waffle was just to say that I believe innocent til proven guilty, and also that in this case I would expect there to be an explanation. However, I am intrigued as to the possible uses for this drug that would make anyone consider it worth the risk? Is it performance enhancing? Would it hide anything that would allow a horse to compete that otherwise would not be able to? Also I think I read somewhere that the B test was being done yesterday, does anyone know how long before the results? I know the entire process can take up to 6 weeks - but I presume the majority of this is to allow the rider time to investigate should both results be positive. It does seem hard too that this is all in the public domain until a conclusion is reached.

 

[MandyMoo]

oh dear...interesting to read everyone's responses and thoughts.

I agree ''innocent until proven guilty'' and I will not judge Jock or anyone involved until it has been proven to be a positive or (hopefully) a negative.

But I do agree there are a lot of coincidences here, and it is sadly pointing towards a positive result being more likely. If so, I really hope it is accidental - and would be a huge shame for Jock if it is, as he would lose his chances at the grand slam, and would receive a tremendous amount of bad publicity in the media....it would make life very hard for him. However, having said that, if it wasn't accidental, and he has actually cheated (not judging currently, as it has not been proven) then he would need to be exposed, and any bad publicity would be well deserved.

What a shame for the sport

 

[MiaBella]

It has been said a few times that the test for reserpine is new. Does anyone know when this test came into use? (i.e. before or after Badminton testing?)

 

[armchair_rider]

Real shame whatever the truth turns out to be - lots of negative publicity for Jock and the sport in general. I'm leaning towards it being an accident, you wouldn't want a horse going round a 4* XC with that in it's system and you wouldn't dope with a detectable substance before the SJ knowing that the winner would be drug tested. On the other hand, if it were a case of contaminated feed/supplements then you'd expect to see more positive tests.

 

[firm]

Miabella it is not that new as mentioned earlier a positive test came back for it in the 2004 Olympics SJ. There was another SJ tested positive for it I think 5/6 years ago. So maybe it does have a use in SJ sadly :-(

 

[chestnut cob]

Playing devil's advocate a little here... how is using Reserpine, which is a tranquilliser, much different to the many people I know who have hunted horses on ACP? It does happen. In some circumstances, people DO sedate their horses then ride them. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility. **disclaimer** don't all jump on me, I am not suggesting this has been done deliberately, just making a point that people do do it. I've known people hunt horses on ACP over some pretty serious country... (incidentally, I am also not suggesting this is a clever or great idea and certainly not something I would do... but again making the point that people DO do it on some occasions)

Assuming the B sample also tests positive, I really do hope this wasn't deliberate doping. If it was an accident, I would question whether at this level, there is ever an excuse for a horse to ingest something banned accidentally. I don't know though. Anyone found to be doping deliberately should be given a lengthy ban to serve as an example. I am an avid cycling fan and it is easy for anyone to see how much damage doping has done to that sport. Doping in any sport should be dealt with quickly and harshly. However, these are all moot points until a judgment is made.

 

[TarrSteps]

When there is lots of money involved in any equine discipline the pressure to cheat using banned substances increases. There have been quite a few cases even in junior show jumping . Eventing and Endurance both seem to have changed dramatically over recent years and lost their predominately amateur status regrettably.

While I agree with your sentiment, it's naive to think cheating - either actual rule breaking or just in intent - is new. What has increased is scrutiny of horse sports and the science to do something about it. You only have to read a few old books to find a whole list of tricks.

That is one of the eternal issues in sport. You have a whole bunch of people who, by definition, want desperately to win but that means some of them will try a little *too* hard. Not to mention that most people have an area or two where they justify their own dodgy ethics - it's okay to speed because the traffic is light and I REALLY need to be on time, the big company I work for won't miss a bit of paper - and it's easy to see why there are always going to be people who cheat but might not even perceive it that way. I'm not sure I'm always thrilled with the application of Clean Sport rules but at least it's an effort.

Reserpine is not new or even that rare, at least outside the UK, where it isn't licensed for use. Although, as someone pointed out, you can get the plant its extracted from on line. The newer test isn't even that new - I can't remember when, exactly, it came in but I do remember some people getting caught in Florida.

 

[Fanatical]

Another option to consider, not a nice one and not necessarily my view, is that suggested by both horses co-owner, Francis Stead.

Obviously as an athlete, people can monitor exactly what they are consuming, however with horses, you have to trust the team around you. However at competitions there are very many people in and around the stables who could potentially administer something to a horse very, very easily.

The Clifton horses are currently very, very successful and a lot is/ was at stake (Grand Slam ect). There are unfortunately people out there who do not like to see others enjoy such success.

It is easy for us all to sit and deliberate over the various possibilities but of course there os the very real possibility that nobody will ever know.

I personally really feel for Jock and his team. I don’t think he would knowingly drug his horses, when his sole intention was to win the event – knowing that the winner is always tested.

 

[chestnut cob]

That is one of the eternal issues in sport. You have a whole bunch of people who, by definition, want desperately to win but that means some of them will try a little *too* hard. Not to mention that most people have an area or two where they justify their own dodgy ethics

It's that question of whether the end justifies the means. No different to when there were endless debates about rollkur on here... if it achieves the *end*, does it justify the means? When there is money involved, there will always be someone willing to cut a corner or do something they wouldn't normally.

 

[Mickyjoe]

Another option to consider, not a nice one and not necessarily my view, is that suggested by both horses co-owner, Francis Stead.

Obviously as an athlete, people can monitor exactly what they are consuming, however with horses, you have to trust the team around you. However at competitions there are very many people in and around the stables who could potentially administer something to a horse very, very easily.

The Clifton horses are currently very, very successful and a lot is/ was at stake (Grand Slam ect). There are unfortunately people out there who do not like to see others enjoy such success.

It is easy for us all to sit and deliberate over the various possibilities but of course there os the very real possibility that nobody will ever know.

I personally really feel for Jock and his team. I don’t think he would knowingly drug his horses, when his sole intention was to win the event – knowing that the winner is always tested.

This is what I am inclined to think too. It does seem as though it could be someone with a grudge against the Clifton success and it's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone could have slipped the horses something while in the Burghley stables. Of course, that then raises the murky point that it would have had to be someone who either broke in secretly or else had legitimate access to the stables. I wonder what would have shown up if Clifton Lush had been tested too?

 

[TarrSteps]

It would be a very good way to nobble someone! Not for the reason many on here seem to think - because the horse would be a stoned out zombie, which was clearly not the case here - but because it's a well known drug with a historical use for cheating. Mind you, you could say the same about bute, ace and all sorts of other common meds, although I guess you could then make the argument reserpine is much harder to explain away and has a significant cultural bias against it.

Interesting times.

 

[Fanatical]

This is what I am inclined to think too. It does seem as though it could be someone with a grudge against the Clifton success and it's not beyond the realms of possibility that someone could have slipped the horses something while in the Burghley stables. Of course, that then raises the murky point that it would have had to be someone who either broke in secretly or else had legitimate access to the stables. I wonder what would have shown up if Clifton Lush had been tested too?

Quite! I suspect Lush would also have tested positive. When such vast sums of money are involved, people can get very nasty unfortunately. It would not be too difficult to slip something to all 3 Clifton horses.
It makes you shudder to think about.

 

[ihatework]

A horribe situation all round.
It will be interesting to see what the testing shows on all Clifton/associated horses, what the testing shows on all feeds/supplements associated with those stables. That should help to narrow down the source.
If feeds sources and other horses test negative then the implications are very concerning.

 

[TarrSteps]

It's that question of whether the end justifies the means. No different to when there were endless debates about rollkur on here... if it achieves the *end*, does it justify the means? When there is money involved, there will always be someone willing to cut a corner or do something they wouldn't normally.

Well, except that, at the time, there was no rule against rolkur and there is still much debate.

A drug test is much more cut and dried.

Technically, calmers and PTSD surgery are against the rules. Hands up. . . And yet there are endless debates on here about whether or not having a horse schooled or even taking 'too many' lessons is cheating. The fact is many people define the term by what they personally won't/can't do!

In fact, I'd say more people cheat at the lower levels, even if they don't see it that way. They justify it by saying it doesn't really matter, or its not to win, or even that they are unlikely to be tested so no one *really* cares.

 

[ajn1610]

It never ceases to amaze me how people don't read their rule books or bother to get themselves properly informed! Rules are rules and it's the rider's responsibility what ever their level to be aware of them and abide by them.
It might be that someone has legitimately used a medication legally in prior training and underestimated how long it takes for a drug to clear the horses system. It might be that you have some sloppy yard practices and a banned substance has accidentally got into the horses through shared buckets. It might be something innocuous testing positive like a herb in the pasture as others have mentioned.
We all know that there are some extreme practices by some people. I've seen some shocking cheating and infringement of horse welfare at both ends of the spectrum.
I don't know anything about the rider in question but I seriously doubt this is intentional cheating. You'd have to be half witted to try and pull that off when you absolutely know your going to be tested at FEI competitions. It sad for the yard that this would taint an otherwise stupendous achievement but ultimately it's the rider's responsibility to ensure they are competing clean.

 

[PolarSkye]

It never ceases to amaze me how people don't read their rule books or bother to get themselves properly informed! Rules are rules and it's the rider's responsibility what ever their level to be aware of them and abide by them.
It might be that someone has legitimately used a medication legally in prior training and underestimated how long it takes for a drug to clear the horses system. It might be that you have some sloppy yard practices and a banned substance has accidentally got into the horses through shared buckets. It might be something innocuous testing positive like a herb in the pasture as others have mentioned.
We all know that there are some extreme practices by some people. I've seen some shocking cheating and infringement of horse welfare at both ends of the spectrum.
I don't know anything about the rider in question but I seriously doubt this is intentional cheating. You'd have to be half witted to try and pull that off when you absolutely know your going to be tested at FEI competitions. It sad for the yard that this would taint an otherwise stupendous achievement but ultimately it's the rider's responsibility to ensure they are competing clean.

100% agree. I feel very sorry for Team Paget, but a mistake was made somewhere and that sort of slip up is just irresponsible or foolish when the stakes are this high . . . well, that, or the horses were nobbled somehow . . .

. . . very unfortunate for the sport, though - especially when public opinion is still (sadly) that horse sports are for toffs and riders are just passengers.

P

 

[Fanatical]

Other facts to note...

Whilst Jock paget has been happy to respond to the allegations, Kevin McNab has declined to talk with 'no comment'.

The horses, Clifton Promise and Clifton Pinot were stabled in adjacent stables at Burghley.

 

[popsdosh]

Other facts to note...

Whilst Jock paget has been happy to respond to the allegations, Kevin McNab has declined to talk with 'no comment'.

The horses, Clifton Promise and Clifton Pinot were stabled in adjacent stables at Burghley.

Personally Jock would do better keeping his mouth shut also as things you say have a habit of biting you in the bum one day.There is no guilt from keeping your mouth shut and things tend to quieten up quicker for it.I feel sad for him if it is something outside his control as it potentially could end his career.

 

[BeckyD]

I feel really gutted for JP and his team and Frances Stead. I really think the chances of this being intentional doping from JP is unlikely; they would have to be extremely dim to think he would get away with it, bearing in mind the high probability of his horse(s) being tested.

I suspect the B test will come back positive, and we will never know who was responsible. For sure, someone is sitting there rubbing their hands with glee as the situation worsens for JP.

Or maybe I've just read too much Dick Francis!

 

[Polos Mum]

It this was tampering by a third party, top end grooms will find themselves sleeping in stables with their charges at big events to prevent this kind of thing! I hope we've all just been watching too much CSI/ reading too much Dick Frances!

JP will know if it was done deliberately, he'll also be able to work out if it was accidental by testing his other horses/ looking at his feeds.

 

[teapot]

Going with the innocent until proven guilty side of things but it's a worry for the sport.

How does the B sample work? It is a sample taken at the same time the A sample is and kept just incase further testing is needed?

 

[JFTDWS]

Going with the innocent until proven guilty side of things but it's a worry for the sport.

How does the B sample work? It is a sample taken at the same time the A sample is and kept just incase further testing is needed?

Having read the FEI rules more extensively than I could possibly have any need to yesterday, I can answer that. The B is sample is taken at the same time as the A sample, and stored separately for analysis at a second laboratory, performed by a different investigator in the event of a positive A sample.

 

[Freddie19]

I have no idea if he is guilty or not but wanted to say that this ^^^
is incorrect. I own an international eventer and, providing you have the correct stable pass, no one accompanies you to the stables. I regularly go see him late at night for a final check and carrot and no one has ever been with with me.

I would also say too many coincidences herE - the biggest being that five lower placed horses randomly tested showed that four were negative and the fifth Jock's 14th placed horse, tested positive.

Could I just say as a stable manager at an FEI 3 Day Event, stables are closed to everybody at mutually agreed time, with us it is 10pm. You can only go into the stable area to visit your horse with vet's agreement and accompanied by a steward. Obviously it is not always possible to fully secure the stable area, and in some lower star events it is not now required by the FEI to fully secure the stable area. I only hope we do not have to go back to fencing around all stables at all starred events because it is a huge expense for all organisers to do this. If you have visited your horse after the closing time on Saturday night, you have (inadvertently hopefully) broken the rules. Just as a PS, this rule as I understand, was brought in on veterinary advice to stop, the continued walking of horses, which used to be dragged from their stables and walked for hours on end, when all they wanted to do was rest!!! I of course stand to be corrected. PPSL One of the stable management team's jobs is to listen out for any loud noises, ie overly kicking from the stable block, find out who is kicking etc, and contact either rider or groom, this is why we are so adamant about having a mobile no for each competitor. The stable vet also sleeps on site so to be right on the spot.