Competing at a lower level to 'warm up' - rant!

[Moomin1]

Is Minimoo asleep ?

Moomin, do you mean that you would never put her in an Intro test, or just that you would not take her to do any test until she had canter sorted?

Mini Moomin is being a very good girl and allowing me to have some peace and quiet lol!

I wouldn't take her to do any test to be honest (my horse, not Mini Moomin ;-) ) unless I was confident that she is capable of performing walk, trot and canter to a reasonably decent standard. I just tend to think that if there is a problem with the canter, then there's something still lacking in the basic training ie balance, straightness etc etc and I personally wouldn't compete my horse when there was an issue like that. But I am a perfectionist when it comes to competing so that's just my take on it really.

 

[cptrayes]

Mini Moomin is being a very good girl and allowing me to have some peace and quiet lol!

I wouldn't take her to do any test to be honest (my horse, not Mini Moomin ;-) ) unless I was confident that she is capable of performing walk, trot and canter to a reasonably decent standard. I just tend to think that if there is a problem with the canter, then there's something still lacking in the basic training ie balance, straightness etc etc and I personally wouldn't compete my horse when there was an issue like that. But I am a perfectionist when it comes to competing so that's just my take on it really.

No, I see that, but when she does do canter nicely, would you consider an Intro test or just go straight for Prelim?

 

[cptrayes]

I always compete at intro level; but we rarely get placed so I'm happy with the outing which is why Intro was out there in the first place?

I go for that and the coffee , just like you.

 

[cptrayes]

11 MA sideways crab movement in trot still doing impression of giraffe

12. Two one time changes anywhere random. when you want them you'll never get them, but one of mine did them once

Judges comment was 'nice changes, unfortunately not required at this level.'

 

[PolarSkye]

It is absolutely common and correct for a horse to be working several levels above what it competes at so that what it has to do in the ring is easy peasy and not on a wing and a prayer.

if the horse is hot, or stressy, or had a previous bad experience, it may need a dead easy class to settle it, before the harder class.

Certainly applies to my boy . . . we always did a warm-up (lower level - Intro) test first to get him settled/used to the arena/atmosphere and then did the Prelim. He never did get to Novice before he broke . . . we had entered him for one (and he did the Prelim first) but he was such a stressy nightmare that we put him on the lorry and took him home.

When we go back out in the New Year, he'll be going at Prelim but will do classes and then we'll step one up to Novice when both he and N are ready . . . honestly, it's common practice.

However - doing an Intro test and then going in and doing a Novice (or above) is a bit of a mickey take and certainly unfair.

P

 

[Red-1]

I don't mind about the rest of the test, but my favourite move is the final Halt at G, salute and allow the horse to stretch- for a pee!

 

[VRIN]

12. Two one time changes anywhere random. when you want them you'll never get them, but one of mine did them once

Judges comment was 'nice changes, unfortunately not required at this level.'

that made me smile!!

 

[Moomin1]

No, I see that, but when she does do canter nicely, would you consider an Intro test or just go straight for Prelim?

Mm, well she's above and beyond my level now as she's been brought on by my instructor a hell of a lot whilst I was pregnant, and apparently would be up to about an affiliated novice standard now. So in all honesty, I would feel a little bit of a fraud taking her in an unaffiliated intro, even though for my confidence that is where I would like to start for the first couple of tests. But I think I would probably go straight for the prelim instead.

I also think my instructor would shoot me if I entered an intro walk/trot test now too lol!!

 

[EquiEquestrian556]

I do compete in a smaller class or two when I'm SJing, before my main classes, to warm by mare up & get her used to the arena & course etc. and to be honest I don't see it as bad. My best friend does it too, and and so do a few other friends, and I know a few people who also do that.

If you're eligible for the class, then what's the problem?

 

[EquiEquestrian556]

Certainly applies to my boy . . . we always did a warm-up (lower level - Intro) test first to get him settled/used to the arena/atmosphere and then did the Prelim.
P

^^ This is what I do with my mare when SJing. It lets them see the course and the crowd etc, so when my main classes come she's used to the atmosphere, and thus she can focus at the task in hand.

 

[pootleperkin]

I think they serve a purpose either as a warm up for very green horses or for extremely nervous/newbie riders and not much else. I would have no qualms in taking a green, training prelim /novice at home horse in intros and so risk the wrath of being called a pot hunter, as like PS, the horse, although green would likely be prepped to perform above and beyond that level. But if it is its first few times out, then why not. I would also do a prelim test the same day. Perfect baby horse warm up.

I also think that if you lack match practice as a rider, then despite the level of the horse you ride, again, why not pop in one or two at the start of your competitive career! People should be less judgmental over who enters what in general.....people usually have valid reasons for class choices. While a minority might be pot hunting, I think if you are pot hunting at intro level, it's quite sad really! lol

 

[wench]

Slightly on a different note I turned up with my old horse to a clear round jumping session. I got some very funny looks from people there, as you could have put my horse in the badminton trot up and not known he wasn't supposed to be there.

In reality he was a very naughty horse, and I needed to do some very low level stuff with him to convince him stopping and running out wasn't an option.

 

[Kikke]

Yup annoying for some people I ams sure, but it works for me and my horses especially if you are traveling somewhere just for a 4 minute test, why not do more then the one class and use one as a warm up.

 

[georgiegirl]

I'm another who doesn't see a problem with it (to an extent)

Dressage is all about progression and if you feel you and your horse did a nice test then what's the bother where you came?

Conversely there's been times I've been out and done what I thought was a god awful test and have own or been placed - that is just as unsatisfying I can tell you!

I always think that if I think my horse and I have done a good test then who cares where we finish up? Yes sometimes it can be a little disappointing but that's dressage for you and all you can do is go away and work harder..... Competitions are won at home, not at shows is my mantra!

 

[spookypony]

I'm apparently a freak, in that I can be petrified to do anything in the warm-up, but then turn down that centre line and become all business, and actually generally ride better in tests than in the warmup. I used to be fine in warm-ups, but the general nerves that have befallen me since my accident appear to have affected me there, oddly! Before I got her, my mare had been doing very well at prelim and had done a novice test or two with decent scores. For our first outing, I entered 2 prelims. I barely got out of walk in the warm-up, because she was spooking at an advertising sign and I was sitting there like a lemon, but we managed to win our first test, and place well in our second, despite still not warming up properly. That gave me the confidence to enter prelim and novice the next time out, and each time I take her somewhere with other horses, I feel more of my old "just put the leg on and get it moving" returning. It won't be long before we're doing two novice tests (or, one hopes, N and E), but in the meantime, it's necessary for me to know that I can have the first test as a warm-up. It's nothing to do with preparation; it's psychological, and will only be overcome through repetition.

My other thought is to do with injury recovery. I managed to strain hip adductors and flexors on my 80k attempt with the Spooky Pony at the end of August; for about 2 months, I could not sit to right canter without contorting myself and unbalancing the mare, so we stuck to walk and trot in the school, until it had healed. It wouldn't have occurred to me at that point to enter any sort of test until I was completely sorted out. If I had a horse that was being rehabilitated, I might be tempted to take it out at a lower level to get it used to things again, but would probably go HC if that level was more than one below where we were competing before. But everyone's circumstances are different, and as long as the horse and rider are eligible, it's not my business to judge.

An instructor once said to me that before Intro tests, someone wanting to give ring experience to a large unbalanced youngster might just decide to trot canter movements in a Prelim and accept the 0 for that movement. But the same person also joked that if showjumping classes got any lower, they'd have to bury the poles halfway in the ground next.

As to the walk/canter test, I'm all for it. May I contribute:

K: Levade, demi-pirouette, skitter sideways towards X

?

("Skitter" is a special gait, that if executed correctly will make the rider feel as though her horse has at least 20 legs. )

 

[Moomin1]

I'm another who doesn't see a problem with it (to an extent)

Dressage is all about progression and if you feel you and your horse did a nice test then what's the bother where you came?

Conversely there's been times I've been out and done what I thought was a god awful test and have own or been placed - that is just as unsatisfying I can tell you!

I always think that if I think my horse and I have done a good test then who cares where we finish up? Yes sometimes it can be a little disappointing but that's dressage for you and all you can do is go away and work harder..... Competitions are won at home, not at shows is my mantra!

I don't see the point in competing though if you don't bother where you are placed? Why not just stay at home and go on a hack or school for enjoyment? Surely competing is a test of where you are in ability (meaning horse/rider combination)? If you feel you have done well, but then get a bad result, then either something is wrong with your judgement (not meaning you, but speaking metaphorically here) or the judge is a poor one. To be honest, I sometimes think it's a bit disappointing when you get people who can't be bothered where they are placed entering comps, because they don't make the same amount of effort in preparation and it can be quite disheartening to compete against people like that.

 

[rara007]

I don't see the point in competing though if you don't bother where you are placed? .

For me personally it's more about competing against my previous results/where I think we are in training (I'm busy and have other things on so we're at a plateau, and not one I have the time or inclination to move off of even if the pony was up to it which I don't think he needs to be at his time in life!). We simply do it for our enjoyment. Sometimes we get lucky and the judge likes me and the ponies, or everyone else is worse than us/has a nightmare day. Sometimes the judge doesn't like my style and ponies, or they do but other people nail it and simply outclass us. I think lots of people at unaff and the lower levels think along those lines, not all of us are cut out/have the time/inclination to be the next Olympian, but I enjoy my ponies as and when I can. I'd rather come middle in a large competitive class than win a class of only a handful or where the standard was poor Unless you always go to the same venue each week the standard of two classes of the same test is never exactly the same (even then not the same as horses are horses and people human), I like to know I've improved not just that the person that beat me before didn't turn up. I have too many rosettes cluttering up the place as it is

 

[Firewell]

I think OP that you should be really proud your horse did well. It is frustrating when a Novice combination enter an Intro but really how sad for them that they need to do that. It happens everywhere all the time.
Here in America in their jumping shows they will have a day before the show where you can school the horse round the jumps.Then a professional trainer does a 'Pro' class on the Amateurs horse to school it and make sure it's seen all the fillers (again), make sure any minor issues are ironed out ready for the Amature owner to then get on and do a lower height 'Amature' class. While the Amature is basically sitting and steering their horse round their trainer stands by the ring and calls out to them any last minute instructions.
The classes are split into so many sections that it's pretty impossible not to get placed and then everyone pats themselves on the back at how brilliantly well they have done.
Then there's me who rocks up on the day with no trainer, no schooling round first, hops on and beats them all .
There is something satisfying about that!
Like someone else said while those people at your show are still patting themselves on the back in several years time for winning an Intro you will be frying bigger fish!

 

[cptrayes]

I don't see the point in competing though if you don't bother where you are placed? .

I'm not joking one bit, though sometimes people think I am, when I say I go for the coffee. I mean that sometimes I go for the day out with my OH, purely as entertainment.

Sometimes I go to train a young horse because it's easier than arranging a group of friends to simulate a competition environment. I always make sure not to annoy anyone else, and I wear
L plates to let them know I'm on a complete baby.

With a really difficult horse I used to ride I would deliberately compete above where he could possibly win, because he behaved much better the more complicated the test was and the more his brain was kept engaged.

I'm sad that we are losing the idea that anyone might do lower level dressage just for fun, and I swear there's a judge who marks me down just because I'm smiling at how happy I am with the way my horse is feeling underneath me compared to what he might have been doing

 

[cptrayes]

Firewell I love your story

When I was eventing a decade ago, a then (not now) British team member caused problems in the showjump warm up doing a 'don't you know who I am?' act, and then blocked a cross country warm up fence chatting to her entourage about how her horse was brother to her 4 star horse. I've never been happier to beat someone on my parentage-unrecorded self-trained but lion-hearted mongrel.

 

[LittleRooketRider]

Jeesh..why is it every thread I read I seem to find CPT being nasty! Such a shame...I'm sure you have interesting opinions/stuff to say but being b;t@hy just puts our backs up and your (potentially enlightening) opinions are ignored.

Back on subject OP...I don't see the problem, surely it is bette/safer for all concerned including the horse to have a prep, warm up, chill out, experience...there are enough on here that condemn the rushing of education. + entering 2 classes makes it worth the journey, why should they have to go up a level above and potentially worry/confuse/rush their horse so that you can win?!
As has been sais measure yourself by your own achievements and keeping wrking at it. Well done by the way and good luck for the future.

 

[ilvpippa]

I do intro purely for fun; my horse is a beautiful chestnut tb - looks like she could go do a higher test; but she's not got the attitude for it & I love just showing her off. Rarely get placed as judges tend to not like her

 

[ester]

I don't see the point in competing though if you don't bother where you are placed? Why not just stay at home and go on a hack or school for enjoyment? Surely competing is a test of where you are in ability (meaning horse/rider combination)? If you feel you have done well, but then get a bad result, then either something is wrong with your judgement (not meaning you, but speaking metaphorically here) or the judge is a poor one. To be honest, I sometimes think it's a bit disappointing when you get people who can't be bothered where they are placed entering comps, because they don't make the same amount of effort in preparation and it can be quite disheartening to compete against people like that.

For a natter, to catch up with friends, the chips, my pony always enjoys a chance to show off...

 

[Caol Ila]

I don't follow Princess' argument that having Intro tests lowers the standards of dressage. I cannot speak for BD, as I have never competed here, but USDF -- United States-land dressage -- they also have Intro, which is walk/trot, and then Training, kind of the equivalent of Prelim, First, which is sort of like Novice, and so on, up to Fourth Level, which is the last stop before FEI. The pros who are elevating the sport are virtually *never* tottering about on their young horses at those lower levels. Pretty sure I wasn't riding against Steffan Peters and Ravel at First Level when Ravel was five! They may do the FEI young horse classes, then you don't see them competing until those horses are around Fourth Level/Prix St. George. The lower level classes, from Into to First (less so Second, as that's where you introduce collection) are full of happy amateurs who just want to get out and show. Of course they are not elevating the sport. They are out showing a level they are comfortable with because they want to show. They are on all manner of horses, QHs, TBs, Fjords, draft-crosses, Saddlebreds, yeah, some WBs, you name it, and a lot of them were never even going to make it to Second, the whole idea of collection being laughable. I used to be one of those people (more of an unhappy amateur, but that's a different story) and trust me, if anything, I was probably dragging the sport down.

But those people who are perpetually hanging around Intro-Training-First for their entire competitive careers are the bread and butter of the sport. Enough of them pile into the show venue to make running the show financially worthwhile. Shows in North America would not be viable if they were reliant on people who are actually good, who are riding FEI or who are 'bringing their horse up the levels,' which is very few anyway since as I said, the top riders are not riding a Training Level class.

 

[conniegirl]

Canter can often be the straw that broke the camels back.
I don't do affiliated dressage, I occasionally pootle and do the odd unaff intro or prelim but generally my horses are show horses and when I've got a baby out at thier first show I will Always get them in the ring in an inhand class first and I will always choose a walk trot class first.
This gives the baby confidence, ring experiance and a nice first time out without worrying about someone cantering up his bottom, haveing to worry about correct legs or having to worry about a probably extremely giddy pony going stupid when cantering in company.
Normaly only takes one or 2 goes before they are ready to canter in public. My current lad was awesome and did canter on his first time out ( he hasn't done a dressage test yet though) my last lad was extremely difficult and a serious problem horse. First time out ever was an intro dressage test in which he scored 72% but cantering would likely have seen me in hospital as with his history he freaked in canter, took me 2 years to gets canter at all but he was rock solid in walk and trot and doing an intro test gave us both the confidence needed to crack on with canter and get going! Once canter was cracked we skipped prelim and went straight to novice

 

[Chirmapops]

In response to the idea that this was a "novice" horse doing an intro - how do you know? Was it doing extensions and counter canter in the warm up, or did it just go nicely? I would always school at least one, preferably two levels above at home, and in the warm up I continue to do the work that makes my mare go well at home - so if that means using half pass and shoulder in to warm up for a novice test then so be it. Pothunting? Not at all - as others have said I just don't want the work I do in the ring to be knocking at the edges of what the horse is capable of at any given time. Most riding clubs won't let you compete at three levels on any given day, so I find it unlikely that they were using an intro to warm up for a novice, and doing an intro then a prelim is perfectly acceptable. OP, you said it was your first competition so I'm not sure why you're surprised that you got beaten by a more experienced combination? Unless we break the classes down to where they can only have one person in each (6-6 1/2 year old warmblood x Welsh mare class, followed by a 12 year-old ex racer under 32 BD points class...) then someone is going to win and everyone else isn't. That's how it goes. You did well to come third on your first ever outing - enjoy that rather than feeling hard done by!

 

[stencilface]

For a natter, to catch up with friends, the chips, my pony always enjoys a chance to show off...

Whoa there! You forgot cheesy chips, always cheesy chips!

 

[georgiegirl]

I don't see the point in competing though if you don't bother where you are placed? Why not just stay at home and go on a hack or school for enjoyment? Surely competing is a test of where you are in ability (meaning horse/rider combination)? If you feel you have done well, but then get a bad result, then either something is wrong with your judgement (not meaning you, but speaking metaphorically here) or the judge is a poor one. To be honest, I sometimes think it's a bit disappointing when you get people who can't be bothered where they are placed entering comps, because they don't make the same amount of effort in preparation and it can be quite disheartening to compete against people like that.

I think you misunderstand my point......a bad result does not necessarily mean bad judging or something wrong with your judgement - it could just mean there were better combinations there on the day even if it means your horse has gone out and done a really good test for its stage of training or experience - I would still be more than happy with that.

Actually I think its quite offensive to suggest those of us who arent all that bothered about ribbons 'dont make the same amount of preparation...' Winning is the icing on the cake for good preparation and a good performance. Its certainly very lovely to go out and and win/be highly placed or whatever but its not the be and end all of why people compete.

 

[bakewell]

I
But those people who are perpetually hanging around Intro-Training-First for their entire competitive careers are the bread and butter of the sport. Enough of them pile into the show venue to make running the show financially worthwhile. Shows in North America would not be viable if they were reliant on people who are actually good, who are riding FEI or who are 'bringing their horse up the levels,' which is very few anyway since as I said, the top riders are not riding a Training Level class.

Such an important point.
No-one is making money in the current climate. You can have the tin pot all to yourself and others you personally feel are appropriate to compete... but you have to put the show on yourself. Everyone else needs as many bums on seats (saddles) as they can get through the doors.
If the industry picks up perhaps more selective events will emerge. It requires continued financial investment by all participants to get it there first.

More people lose than win by the very nature of sports. So learning to be a good loser and using that as an incentive to train is critical.
Because one day you're going to get beaten by a hairy native pony; it happens to all of us.

 

[miss_c]

The venue you were at has told me that they have you a five minute warning

Wow, I wish I had so much spare time as to be able to bother asking venues about other competitors at shows I wasn't even competing....

i said i find lower level warm ups more nerve wracking.

Ditto this! There are an incredible number of people who ride while staring at their horse's head, oblivious to all around them, resulting in near misses. Lower levels unaffiliated many do not pass left to left, walk on the track two abreast having a chat, etc. (Yes, I am completely generalising here!!!) The number of times I've had to almost pull Genie's teeth out when (for example) cantering a circle and somebody walks in front of her when I am a stride away from them. She takes it much better than she used to though!

For a natter, to catch up with friends, the chips, my pony always enjoys a chance to show off...

Mmmm.... chips....


Back to the original post...

I will compete at two levels and have done an intro and a prelim on the same day before. In fact on one of Fanfare's first outings she won the intro and then was second in the Prelim which floored me. I have as well on one occasion done a Prelim and an Elementary on the same horse in the same day. This was because I was entered in the RC Prelim Qualifier by my riding club (as we were completely eligible and stood a chance of qualifying) but wanted to do the mare's first ever Elementary at a venue we were confident at, in a non-pressure environment, and expecting a rubbish result. In the end she was a cow in the Prelim qualifier but managed 7th on an 'ok' score, and won the elementary on a rubbish score (3 in it!). Said mare now doesn't do unaff Prelim (that qualifier was her last one) but if there is only one novice I would do the Prelim HC as she is a novice horse and would do two novices if available. It is common practice for riders to do two different levels on one day, often because they are not yet fully established at the higher level and I certainly wouldn't moan about somebody who is established at novice but also doing an Elem competing. Part and parcel of the sport and it makes it so much more satisfying if you happen to beat them.

As an aside, if you want a great example of people competing at a lower level than they usually would, just go to Team Quest! They have now taken measures to limit this next year, but this year there were horses that school at medium competing at Intro.