Competing at a lower level to 'warm up' - rant!

[Tiddlypom]

I've been out of the competitive dressage scene for 20 years. In that time, restricted classes and intro classes have arrived.

I'm not at all convinced. I'm another who thinks that prelim is best to remain as the lowest level.

I've posted about this before, but when I entered my first ever BD elementary test (with strong reservations from my trainer) on my HW ex RS cob, I was over the moon to be placed second in a big class. Not only that, but I was a close second to Stephen Clarke under a List 1 judge! As an everyday rider, who grafts hard to make up for a lack of natural ability, that will remain an unforgettable achievement.

Dumbing down means nothing. I always want to aspire to be up with the big boys, not getting a frillie for bumbling around an arena slightly less badly than the others.

 

[cptrayes]

but my opinion remains that intro's do nothing to encourage people to up their game or raise their standards.

Of course it does. It encourages people to up their game from being to afraid to compete at all, to entering their first competions. In fact, just what BD meant it to do.

I can't, though, understand why anyone would pay to do an affiliated one, what's the point in that?

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

But it is aimed at me, as one of many Intro riders, and I can only reply to you from my own experience.

I think you've lost track of what the majority of riders want out of life. And your posts really do read to me as if you want to stop the rest of us from just having a bit of fun or who think that an
Intro is of benefit to some novice horses and riders.

well fortunately most people do seem able to grasp what im getting at, so if you cant, again-no skin off my nose.

man of the people i teach are in the unaff prelim/novice category, a few at BD prelim/novice and a few BD elem/medium and training adv med............... Without exception they are all desperately competitive, determined to move up the levels and not one of them competes for a good day out.
Fortunately my *oh ffs come on, get on with it* attitude doesnt seem to go against me as i have clients coming out my ears atm.
Not one of them wants a jolly day out and not one of them would want to win an unaff heavily restricted intro class...............................which kind of leads me to think a lot of people SAY one thing but deep down want more. No one wants to stagnate at the same level forever, its not human nature.

if intro classes disappeared tomorrow i dont think people would miss them as much as they think they would, it would just be the kick up the butt they need to move up to prelim, which 99.999999999999% of them would probably find easier than they think.

People get so wound up about it, but riding really isnt rocket science.

 

[HotToTrot]

I'm constantly being beaten by people that are better than me,

This made me giggle. Oh. Yeah. Me too! Drat!

 

[cptrayes]

No one wants to stagnate at the same level forever, its not human nature.

Let's replace the emotive word with one a bit less pejorative and say

No-one wants to stay at the same level forever, it's not human nature.

It may not be your nature, but it is very much in the nature of many people to want to stay well within their comfort zone. Older people are also generally much more risk averse than their younger selves, something you'll probably discover for yourself when you hit the menopause.

 

[eahotson]

A

Let's replace the emotive word with one a bit less pejorative and say



It may not be your o them.nature, but it is very much in the nature of many people to want to stay well within their comfort zone. Older people are also generally much more risk averse than their younger selvoyes, something you'll probably discover for yourself when you hit the menopause.

Agree AND if you don't like/agree with intos don't watch, judge teach or enter them.Leave them for people who do want to do them.Western also have their walk trot tests which are very popular, A riding instructor I know who helps with a riding club had words with a competitor who rides at MEDIUM and who had entered competitively an intro class.She said it wasn't against the rules!!! I think they and others have probably revisited that since.

 

[eahotson]

yes of course, lets just make up more classes, ever easier, so that every class only has one entry and everyones a winner!!!!!!!!!

if you do it for fun you dont mind not being placed and if you do it very seriously then you will have to train a bit more seriously!

any flipping horse is capable of canter, even if you can only school it once a week it can learn to canter in a prelim acceptable way.................plenty of people on very modest budgets with no facilities and families do very very well because instead of sitting around moaning on the internet they get the hell out there and work at it, 4am, 10pm, if thats the only time they can ride, they do it, day in day out to improve.

at unaffiliated classes.
I think you will find that there are many entries in intro and prelim, a lot less in elementary novice etc.certainly

 

[eahotson]

I rode an Intro on a horse last year who had been backed four months earlier and did not reliably give me a correct canter lead. Being young and immature I was not prepared to drill him until he got it right, I waited for him to mature. I wanted a day out with him, for experience, last year, and I went and had a real fun time with him and my OH, and a great cappuccino.

Why, oh why, do you begrudge me, or anyone else this as a first experience of a show environment?

http://youtu.be/DWhl7yAST5A

You had FUN CPTrayes. Don't you know that's not allowed.

 

[Prince33Sp4rkle]

im glad to hear that 1.you know me that well and 2.can see in to the future.......

clearly not all women are affected in that way given the ages of some of the top women across all equestrian disciplines.

my point is that i teach a wide variety of people of all ages and none of them would actually want to stay at the same level and none of them would want any more restricted classes to make their chances of a placing higher.

i dont *let* them stagnate and they dont get upset, they just kick on and work harder. I actually think a lot of people on here making a big deal out of this, would be 100% fine if told to put their big girl pants on and get on with it. Sometimes thats all it takes, someone to say-oh come ON, you can so do this.............and then they realise they can.

i see it time and time again.

intro only gives people an excuse not to do it themselves, if it wasnt there they would be forced to canter in competition which i personally dont feel is a bad thing-horses have 3 basic gaits for competition use(so excl gallop)why on earth do we have classes that dont showcase the training across all 3 gaits.
its only because they have the option NOT to canter that it becomes a big deal, you can bet money that if there were walk only tests introduced all of a sudden trot would become just as big a deal!

ack, i cant be bothered to waste any more brain power on this. I will always feel intro tests are a form of dumbing down.

kindly dont make any further assumptions about me, or what i may or may not do in the future CPT. you dont know me and you never will,so again,stop making it personal.

 

[Tapir]

My local competition centre has far, far more entries in the intro class than in any other. They might get a handful of people in the novice and even fewer in elementary. If it wasn't for all the intro entries they couldn't afford to run any competitions at all. I admit to being a bit unimpressed with the addition of intro classes at first, but although I've ridden to elem level, I still started my new horse off in intro as I had no idea how she would react to the whole situation. I did, however move on as soon as possible - without waiting to win a class.

There are lots of people who are content to do a nice intro test and get good scores without wanting to move on, why shouldn't they be allowed to compete, maybe win a rosette and have a nice time too? The people who PS teaches are obviously not a cross-section of the horse world. If they weren't ambitious in some way, they wouldn't be having lessons with you would they?

Maybe if intro entrants put their "big girl pants on" they would be able to do a prelim test, but perhaps they'd rather have a nice time, without being scared or pressured?

 

[HufflyPuffly]

But I think the point is if Intro wasn't there, those high entries would be in the prelim instead?

I'm not fussed wither way about the state of play of intro's I'll probably make use of them if my giant baby horse ever stops growing and makes it to an age I can back her .

However I do object to people whining about 'pot' hunters, just work harder. Whether it is at intro or inter 1, if you're out for a nice day you don't care who wins.
For whats it's worth Topaz is a rather unlikely dressage horse and have gone from (not the dreaded) intro to elementary in one year, she has now qualified to go to Hartpury next year for the winter champs. This from someone who isn't a natural talent, horsey wasn't bought or bred for it and I work full time, can only manage lessons as and when and all without an indoor school!

I hate loosing and not being competitive so we work hard and making sure our preparations are in place. We started at intro as Topaz could be explosive so I wanted to do a bit of damage limitation, if intro wasn't available we would have just done the prelims instead...

Anyway that's my ramblings!

x x

 

[Bede]

Wise words Tapir

Obviously the powers that be at BD feel that Intro tests are worthwhile; otherwise they would not exist.

 

[Palindrome]

The intro classes at the small local shows I go too are generally more packed than the other classes so I think they are very popular.

I started with them as my horse had trouble to balance at canter. She could canter a 20 meters circles but would not be consistent on a long side so I had to push her a bit more forward on the long side and she would sometimes fall back into trot. She wasn't a danger to anyone in the warm up, just wasn't balanced in canter out of the circle. I didn't want to bully her into doing it so choose to go intro. We did 3 intros (2 1st ones only intro and 3rd one intro+prelim) and at our 3rd one we came 2nd unrestricted so that's when we moved up.

People do these classes for all sort of reasons, it's a bit narrow minded to think that if you are not willing/able to do a prelim you are a danger to others and shouldn't be out or you are pottering about pot hunting.

On the pot hunting side of things though, I had one last time which left me a bit surprised. We did our first novice at a local small dressage competition this Summer (when I say small I really mean small, we were 7 in total to do the novice and no categories). The YM and show organizer on her 18hh bay warmblood comes to ask me if she can go before me as she is apparently always stressed before going in the arena. I say yes, a bit surprised that she is competing but well. End of story, she won it and had the cheek to say when she got handed in her red rosette by a member of her staff: "oh no, me? I was rubbish".
Ahah, really? what does that make all of us then, worst than rubbish? I don't compete very often (in fact only 4 times in 4 years), is that normal practice to enroll in your own competition at your yard (as in you are yard manager)? This wasn't even a qualifier for an unaffiliated championship so I fail to see what she got in it other than red frilli.

ETA: I think she mentioned her horse was a 6 yrs old so not a baby

 

[HufflyPuffly]

But maybe she was really surprised to have won?
Topaz won her first two dressage tests and I have never been more shocked, my mum even made the organiser double check. My shock wasn't to belittle the other competitors just that I was, shocked.

It's all about perception, she might have been pot hunting, but I'm more willing to think the horses wasn't the easiest for what ever reason. silly, naughty, etc and entering a comp on home turf suited her and might have been the only way for her to compete (horse wont load etc). Of course I don't know the person in question and yes she might have just been pot hunting, but equally there could be another side to it...

 

[Palindrome]

But maybe she was really surprised to have won?
Topaz won her first two dressage tests and I have never been more shocked, my mum even made the organiser double check. My shock wasn't to belittle the other competitors just that I was, shocked.

It's all about perception, she might have been pot hunting, but I'm more willing to think the horses wasn't the easiest for what ever reason. silly, naughty, etc and entering a comp on home turf suited her and might have been the only way for her to compete (horse wont load etc). Of course I don't know the person in question and yes she might have just been pot hunting, but equally there could be another side to it...

Yes, but why say she was rubbish? She could just have said she was surprised.

The main problem I think is that she is afraid of her horse as she said he jumped the fence last time, I replied he would make a good cross country horse then with a smile (she didn't think it was funny). It is still weird to ride against a professional on what looks like a purpose bred at their own yard in a very small unaffiliated. She could have gone HC. Am not loosing sleep at night though, just thought it a bit peculiar.

ETA: horse was calm and sweet, but strapping 18hh warmblood gelding

 

[HufflyPuffly]

If he'd jumped the fence again at least she wouldn't have won .

Sorry made me chuckle, probably a poor choice of words from her, if she is indeed scared of the horse then she probably does think she's rubbish and so said it without thinking?

Swings and roundabouts for me, there is always another day and if it happens a lot at one venue maybe see what other venues there are?

x x

 

[Matafleur]

This made me giggle. Oh. Yeah. Me too! Drat!

Lol! It's a great annoyance to me that all those people insist on entering the same classes as me. Although, if they didn't, it's possible I may be the only one in the class... :-D

 

[lucemoose]

All this thread has taught me is to fear the menopause in terror as I will have to start doing intro tests?!

 

[rara007]

All this thread has taught me is to fear the menopause in terror as I will have to start doing intro tests?!

 

[wench]

My horse has the capability of working well. I can only ride at the weekends so progressing the schooling work on an ex showjumper whose natural/trained default to go around like a giraffe on speed is somewhat slow.

IMO her canter (and whilst she can canter nicely) is not working in a soft enough frame for me yet, so I have been mainly concentrating on the walk and trot at home, after all if I can't do it in walk and trot, I can't do it in canter.

I could wait until the canter is sorted to take her out to shows, and enter prelim, but it would be a total waste of time, as the canter would not work.

She is very nosey/tense in walk and trot tests and I have fought with her on a couple of occasions. However we are progressing, and getting better. Once the "issues" are cracked I wouldn't mind entering a prelim, until then, it will be walk and trot, as I stand a better chance of getting her to do what I want rather than cantering around!

 

[ester]

Wise words Tapir

Obviously the powers that be at BD feel that Intro tests are worthwhile; otherwise they would not exist.

Most RCs and other unaff organisers had already invented their own by the time BD joined in!

 

[nikkimariet]

All this thread has taught me is to fear the menopause in terror as I will have to start doing intro tests?!

Hahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ester]

All this thread has taught me is to fear the menopause in terror as I will have to start doing intro tests?!

If you're not careful it seems it can also lead you to just showing miniature shetlands!

 

[HeresHoping]

One perimenopausal woman's thoughts...

I used to ride at elementary level. Well, I evented back in the day when most events were long format and when you reached 'open' then you were jumping around max height 4' fences and your dressage test was what used to be called 'advanced' elementary. A looooong time ago.

And then I took a break for 18 years. Returned to riding by happy accident but with two young children the old nerves were not quite what they used to be, and despite having done a few triathlons, the old position, aids and their applications were a bit, well, rusty. And some were set in quite the wrong place.

I've not had the greatest luck with horses but am determined. At the ripe old age of 43 am absolutely determined to get around a good BE Novice before I'm 50. But this is about dressage and I am of the old school that has been taught that nailing the dressage means hopefully, nailing the event. Yes, I am competitive. Very. Mostly with myself.

I have a fabulous dressage instructor. And I am almost capable of riding a novice with at least one of the horses I ride - bit of canter work needed But I will always do an intro as a warm up. It warms me up, it warms the horse up. It means fine tuning movements to that particular arena - learning where we are likely to 'lose' marks because there's a spook or a shadow or a blade of grass bent the wrong way. But most of all I do it because I find the judges comments invaluable. I give myself points to aim for - NOT rosettes. If I had a 7 for a particular movement last time, this time I want an 8. And if I'm not getting it, I will know exactly what was wrong and what I need to think about for the prelim. I'll stop doing intros when I move up from the prelim, and my prelim will be my 'throw away' test. It's for me. It's not for the pots.

And actually, I dispute the comment that any horse can canter. I have a ride on a 6 year old. In the last year we have pulled his canters up from 3s to 5s. We still get the comments 'hollowed' and 'unbalanced'. He is. Pretty poor, wouldn't you say? But he's such a gangly horse that I don't think we're going to get better without better muscle. Which is coming, slowly, with his filling out. Doing an intro with him is so that we can benchmark his improvements on a month to month basis. I'd rather know that all our efforts in our walk and trot are resulting in improvement. If we ever reach the 70% marker, then I'll know that we're ready to beat the prelim.

 

[sportsmansB]

In Northern Ireland there is no Intro at affiliated dressage
Partly as a result, the affiliated organisation is really struggling for members and cash! Unaffiliated competitions especially with an Intro (sometimes a 'newcomers' intro as a separate class for the really green ones which is nice) get big entries.

I do find Princess Sparkles comments a bit elitist to be honest and there are many people who want to get ring practice themselves or are finding their feet on a new horse and feel comfortable going and doing an intro. They may not even know until they go and try what level they and their horse are at in comparison to the standard required or in comparison to others- not everyone has years of training experience or accessibility to great teaching or even knowledgeable eyes on the ground.... They also fund the sport she is so keen on!! This attitude is the reason why many feel dressage is unapproachable and snooty. Which is terribly disappointing as I have so enjoyed so many of her informative posts on other topics.

 

[PolarSkye]

One perimenopausal woman's thoughts...

I used to ride at elementary level. Well, I evented back in the day when most events were long format and when you reached 'open' then you were jumping around max height 4' fences and your dressage test was what used to be called 'advanced' elementary. A looooong time ago.

And then I took a break for 18 years. Returned to riding by happy accident but with two young children the old nerves were not quite what they used to be, and despite having done a few triathlons, the old position, aids and their applications were a bit, well, rusty. And some were set in quite the wrong place.

I've not had the greatest luck with horses but am determined. At the ripe old age of 43 am absolutely determined to get around a good BE Novice before I'm 50. But this is about dressage and I am of the old school that has been taught that nailing the dressage means hopefully, nailing the event. Yes, I am competitive. Very. Mostly with myself.

I have a fabulous dressage instructor. And I am almost capable of riding a novice with at least one of the horses I ride - bit of canter work needed But I will always do an intro as a warm up. It warms me up, it warms the horse up. It means fine tuning movements to that particular arena - learning where we are likely to 'lose' marks because there's a spook or a shadow or a blade of grass bent the wrong way. But most of all I do it because I find the judges comments invaluable. I give myself points to aim for - NOT rosettes. If I had a 7 for a particular movement last time, this time I want an 8. And if I'm not getting it, I will know exactly what was wrong and what I need to think about for the prelim. I'll stop doing intros when I move up from the prelim, and my prelim will be my 'throw away' test. It's for me. It's not for the pots.

And actually, I dispute the comment that any horse can canter. I have a ride on a 6 year old. In the last year we have pulled his canters up from 3s to 5s. We still get the comments 'hollowed' and 'unbalanced'. He is. Pretty poor, wouldn't you say? But he's such a gangly horse that I don't think we're going to get better without better muscle. Which is coming, slowly, with his filling out. Doing an intro with him is so that we can benchmark his improvements on a month to month basis. I'd rather know that all our efforts in our walk and trot are resulting in improvement. If we ever reach the 70% marker, then I'll know that we're ready to beat the prelim.

Single best post on this thread.

P

 

[Under-the-radar]

but my opinion remains that intro's do nothing to encourage people to up their game or raise their standards.

Buuuutt - were similar comments not made about prelims when they were first introduced? Dumbing down the sport and all that - but now it is a perfectly acceptable step into competition.

 

[JFTDWS]

its only because they have the option NOT to canter that it becomes a big deal, you can bet money that if there were walk only tests introduced all of a sudden trot would become just as big a deal!

I feel like I've just looked into the future, and I don't like what I see...


I certainly don't want to stagnate at lower levels. If I'm going to get rubbish scores, I'd rather get them at a stupidly high level

 

[Fuzzypuff]

TBH I don't understand why anyone would have anything drastically against intro tests - if you don't like them then don't do them and encourage your friends/pupils to aim higher, but there's no need to be bothered by people unconnected to you doing them.

I don't see how they lower the standard of dressage. There are probably a proportion of people who would have done a prelim had there been no intro but I don't see why it matters - some will do intro for a bit and then move up to prelim, others may never move up from intro but then they were probably not the sort to progress past prelim anyway so why bother about whether they are doing intro or prelim.

For some, into will be a way in to dressage, the security blanket of not having to canter (which is likely to be psychological on their part however very real to them) might give them that push to have a go at dressage and over time this may then give them confidence to aim higher. I think not all of these people would necessarily jump in at prelim.

Some people just aren't competitive or don't particularly have a desire to progress. It's not something I really understand, and for me dressage is about progressing, but each to their own. The tests still bring some revenue for BD and for venues and are a gateway into the sport for a few too.

There are many reasons why someone might do an intro - perhaps they can't afford lessons and intro is more achievable for them, or they don't have their own transport so can't get their horse out for arena hire and so intro is the better option for them. Or maybe their horse finds canter really difficult but is pretty well balanced in walk and trot but they want to start getting it out into a competition atmosphere (which is quite different to an arena hire atmosphere IME). Who is anyone else to judge anyway?

The only thing that bothers me about the intro tests is the 1/2 10m circles in trot which are harder than the trot work in prelim tests. People assume intro tests are easier but for many they will be harder because of the trot work. I think for the benefit of the horses it would be better for the trot work to be on a par with prelim.

 

[Casey76]

Also in France it's often that you would do two tests in one day, one lower than the other, and I don't see an issue with it.

The FFE tests start at a level halfway between prelim and novice, and even in the lower two of the tests (we only have two, a max three tests per level), you are expected to give and retake the inside rein in canter without a change in attitude or cadence of the horse.

My mare would probably do a lovely Intro test, as she is soft and supple in walk and trot (mostly), but her canter is a work in progress, and she still finds it difficult to canter on a 20m circle - she just isn't a naturally canter-y pony! although it is starting to come together now, I'm looking at a good 6 months work before she will be ready to have a go at an FFE test, and I really wish I could do an easier w/t test in a competition environment just so that she can get used to that too (as she is very silly and spooky when things aren't "normal"

I do wonder if what puts people off from moving up the levels is the expectation of being able to work in a more advanced frame than is required, or that the horse/rider combo wants to be "perfect" before moving up.