Competing at a lower level to 'warm up' - rant!

[eahotson]

lol

Are you suggesting it isn't cheesy chips??

 

[eggs]

I think part of the problem is that at unaffiliated level even if there are rules about which class you can/cannot enter they are very hard to enforce whilst if you are competing BD there is an official record of your results and sanctions available if you enter a class for which you are ineligible.

There will always be some people who go out pot-hunting and the majority who don't pot hunt. It doesn't matter if you enter an Intro test and feel that the person who won is more than capable of winning at Prelim or whether you enter an Elementary test and feel the winner could win at Medium - that's life so suck it up. Either compete because you want to have a day out go our pot hunting and stick at a low level forever because you want a cupboard full of red rosettes.

For what it is worth I much prefer to have a good ride and not get such a high placing than have a good placing when I feel the horse hasn't gone so well.

 

[JFTDWS]

I disagree with that to a certain extent.

I'm all for homework, don't get me wrong, but at the end of the day the competition environment is different to home environment.

At some point you have to accept you need to push yourself and step out of your comfort zone. So I'm actually pro getting out and having a go. Yes you might spend money and not have a prize to show for it, but the money isn't necessarily wasted - more invested in a learning experience. Which goes back to PaddyMonty comment regarding the reasons why people compete being vast.

PS - normally the only person that cares about a BD record is yourself. It doesn't generally register on anyone else's interest levels unless you want to sell the horse for lots of money!

Yea - Fergus works well (relative to his highland-ness) at home and in training. Both my instructors are less than impressed with the scores I report back because we suffer from performance pressure in the test and everything goes decidedly mediocre (and some judges apparently find this horrifying :cool3: ). Similarly I took Dae to do a prelim and he only performed half the canter work - he can do it fine and dandy at home but I don't have boards and other horses doing tests alongside at home - it was a bit much for him to handle! By attempting a prelim though, he learned a valuable lesson he would have missed if we'd done an intro.

There's no way around that other than by going out and competing and accepting that our scores will be mediocre and we'll probably be loitering around the bottom of the pile. But that doesn't mean I think the "better" candidates shouldn't be allowed to compete in my class, or that they're pot hunting. We're out dealing with an issue. They're out winning. Fine. I might whine about the score, or the comments I get (because I have had some odd ones!), but I don't whine about not winning! It's also a big part of competing that while you're out to decide who's best, by definition you need to have other people there for that one person to be better than!

And I'm more than happy for people to sneer at our record. It's rubbish! It's no reflection on Fergus though.

 

[eahotson]

I think most people just want a levelish playing field and then its down to who is best.If you are beaten fairly fine.Knew a brat a few years ago who took her JA pony to the little local show where the kids went on their very ordinary ponies and competed maybe twice a year.She was out every weekend.She cleaned up.What a surprise.Even her trainer was ashamed.

 

[Tiddlypom]

But then I am not of the "blood, sweat and tear" philosophy either, I just enjoy schooling and have my horse moving correctly off a light aid. In fact, as she gets better and stronger she gets near effortless to ride, as long as you seat straight you just need to wiggle a bit your bum/breath, etc...

Oh yes, the lightness of response to the aids is the aim, and what we (mostly) ended up with. We just had a lot of prat falls en route to achieving that, with me usually working much harder than the horse in the early days.

 

[Dusty85]

When I go out and enter dressage classes the only person I am really competing against is myself.

I know if I am improving or not therefore whilst winning rosettes is nice, it's not the be all and end all.

Suck it up, use it as determination to get better and start moving up the levels yourself.

 

[cptrayes]

PM and TP I agree SO hard!
Competing when you aren't ready and the training isn't there is a waste of time and money.

That may be your opinion.

Personally, I have a nice day out with my OH, the horse gains in confidence from seeing the big wide world, and the lorry decokes itself. Twelve quid well spent, I'd say

I also, of course, agree with everyone who says that there is simply no way you can replicate the pressure of competing in front of a judge without doing it.

 

[khalswitz]

I disagree with that to a certain extent.

I'm all for homework, don't get me wrong, but at the end of the day the competition environment is different to home environment.

At some point you have to accept you need to push yourself and step out of your comfort zone. So I'm actually pro getting out and having a go. Yes you might spend money and not have a prize to show for it, but the money isn't necessarily wasted - more invested in a learning experience. Which goes back to PaddyMonty comment regarding the reasons why people compete being vast.

PS - normally the only person that cares about a BD record is yourself. It doesn't generally register on anyone else's interest levels unless you want to sell the horse for lots of money!

Yes, the competition environment is different. But what benefit is there from taking out a young, green horse out before it can canter? It will gain it's experience whatever level you start it at (many pros don't go out below elementary!) so what is the benefit of doing it at Intro, rather than improving the horse to Prelim level and starting there? Rider issues aside (as I feel nervous riders is a different issue to young horses), what is the benefit of exposing the horse to that environment when he is less trained than more? A horse more confident in his job and his way of going is generally much easier to handle in new situations. Why the rush to compete him when he barely know a his job? (And a horse who can't canter yet doesn't really know his job...)

Regarding the BD record - probably very few other people care if they aren't buying my horse. However, it is a permanent record of the scores that many people would like to forget... And it will record all those test scores from before the horse was really ready.

 

[ihatework]

Yes, the competition environment is different. But what benefit is there from taking out a young, green horse out before it can canter? It will gain it's experience whatever level you start it at (many pros don't go out below elementary!) so what is the benefit of doing it at Intro, rather than improving the horse to Prelim level and starting there? Rider issues aside (as I feel nervous riders is a different issue to young horses), what is the benefit of exposing the horse to that environment when he is less trained than more? A horse more confident in his job and his way of going is generally much easier to handle in new situations. Why the rush to compete him when he barely know a his job? (And a horse who can't canter yet doesn't really know his job...)

Regarding the BD record - probably very few other people care if they aren't buying my horse. However, it is a permanent record of the scores that many people would like to forget... And it will record all those test scores from before the horse was really ready.

Your first post was very generic and could be applied across levels/scenarios. Your latter you state a green horse that cannot canter.

I take my horses straight out affiliated now. Wouldn't bother with intro (or even prelim to some extent) unless it was a cobby/RC sell on type.

That said, I don't put 'my situation' into this post. I completely get the intro market and the variety of reasons behind why people choose to do them. These people are the bread and butter of the industry and we need to support it. No need to be snobby or elitist about it, but accept that different people want different things from their horses and they are critical to keeping the cogs turning for people with bigger aspirations.

 

[cptrayes]

Yes, the competition environment is different. But what benefits is there from taking out a young, green horse out before it can canter? It will gain it's experience whatever level you start it at (many pros don't go out below elementary!) so what is the benefit of doing it at Intro, rather than improving the horse to Prelim level and starting there? Rider issues aside (as I feel nervous riders is a different issue to young horses), what is the benefit of exposing the horse to that environment when he is less trained than more? A horse more confident in his job and his way of going is generally much easier to handle in new situations. Why the rush to compete him when he barely know a his job? (And a horse who can't canter yet doesn't really know his job...)

Regarding the BD record - probably very few other people care if they aren't buying my horse. However, it is a permanent record of the scores that many people would like to forget... And it will record all those test scores from before the horse was really ready.

I really don't understand why anyone pays to compete affiliated on a horse that isn't ready to win points. But as for taking a horse who can't canter yet to do an unaffiliated Intro, I can only, at the risk of being told again that this thread isn't about me, tell you why I do/did it.

Because it gave me a date to fix on and a place to go where I knew I could expose him gently to working with others in an arena without having to organise friends to help me. When you keep the horse at home on your own, getting this experience any other way can be a problem.

Because I find that getting young horses out to see that the world is bigger than they think it is can be a very valuable training exercise.

Because any horse can cop a wobbler in their early tests at stuff like a judge in a car or a hut, and why not get that out of the way before you canter?

Because if the walk and trot are solid enough and you'd both enjoy the outing, why not?

 

[MagicMelon]

Competing when you aren't ready and the training isn't there is a waste of time and money. Your horse will get 'competition experience' just as quickly once he is actually ready, and you will have a better trained horse underneath you too which will make it much easier!.

You have to remember that not everyone has loads of money kicking about for both training AND competing. I love competing, its why I have horses. I cannot afford to train much as well as compete so I just try to do my best on my own with the occasional lesson. You also have to remember not everyone has an arena or access to decent show jumps etc. So it can be worth the money simply to be able to have access to a nicely built SJ course and arena to ride in! I take my green horse out to compete at low levels now, I take the opportunity to compete and also have a bit of a training session on my own using the warm-up - its gives her loads of experience and lets me have a decent schooling session when at home all I can do right now is plod about the farmers stubble fields!

I see now issue with using the level previous as a "warm up". If eligible then why not?

 

[DressageCob]

I don't see the harm in doing a warm up class. It only strengthens the competition and makes you all the more proud when you beat those competitors who are also in the following class.

Doing a warm up one class below like intro for prelim or prelim for novice is ok...doing an intro before a novice is more likely to be pot hunting!

Personally, once I was getting over 60% unaffiliated prelim I stopped doing the intro, if they were running two prelims. I'll admit though, my horse and I were frequently beating other competitors. We didn't always win but we did always place. But I worked blooming hard to get to that point, so there's no reason why we shouldn't have beaten the other competitors. We were all the combination doing their first test once; unless there's a class exclusively for people doing their first test ever it will never be a completely even class!

Now I do affiliated and am on the border between prelim and novice. So I typically do one prelim and one novice. Just because I also do the next class doesn't mean I should give up the prelims yet! We are still in the points to be able to do prelim so unless and until my horse starts getting 70%+ or in the top 6 every time at the novice or is doing well in the novice at regionals, I will keep doing a prelim class. I don't see why I shouldn't Plus it serves as a good warm up for the novice class, to sort out any spooking or arena issues. That doesn't make me a pot hunter

 

[khalswitz]

Your first post was very generic and could be applied across levels/scenarios. Your latter you state a green horse that cannot canter.

I take my horses straight out affiliated now. Wouldn't bother with intro (or even prelim to some extent) unless it was a cobby/RC sell on type.

That said, I don't put 'my situation' into this post. I completely get the intro market and the variety of reasons behind why people choose to do them. These people are the bread and butter of the industry and we need to support it. No need to be snobby or elitist about it, but accept that different people want different things from their horses and they are critical to keeping the cogs turning for people with bigger aspirations.

I do believe it applies across scenarios (tbh I do think that if competing is as nerve wracking an experience as it seems to be for many of the slightly older ladies who full up the Intro classes around here, then maybe they just shouldn't do it... Surely that isn't fun! ) - however I referred specifically to a green horse in that post because young green horses were referred to several times, especially in terms of giving them competition experience, and as nobody here was in the nervous rider scenario I moved the conversation on to respond to the points being made. I don't think you need Intro level to give a young horse experience! That is my point. As the judging and way of going etc is te same as at prelim (and in fact tougher trot work!) then really the only difference is the canter... So, I do query why it is such a big issue that it requires a whole seperate class, rather than encouraging people to train their horses.

I do agree with PS that it is dumbing down. Doesn't do the horse any harm to get his competition experience later on once he's ready to actually perform - in the meantime, group clinics etc would also expand his horizons and also be far more productive. (Unless obv you are selling him, but with only a few intros under his belt you'd have more explaining to do than if he had none IMO...)

Intro certainly does not fund the sport. In my area, there isn't a single affiliated Intro class, and even our RC only has a handful of entries in that one class compared to three classes of more than double the size at prelim, and two classes similarly sized at novice - so they certainly aren't funding our dressage here, it's the prelim and novice who do.

 

[cptrayes]

I do believe it applies across scenarios (tbh I do think that if competing is as nerve wracking an experience as it seems to be for many of the slightly older ladies who full up the Intro classes around here, then maybe they just shouldn't do it... Surely that isn't fun! ) - however I referred specifically to a green horse in that post because young green horses were referred to several times, especially in terms of giving them competition experience, and as nobody here was in the nervous rider scenario I moved the conversation on to respond to the points being made. I don't think you need Intro level to give a young horse experience! That is my point. As the judging and way of going etc is te same as at prelim (and in fact tougher trot work!) then really the only difference is the canter... So, I do query why it is such a big issue that it requires a whole seperate class, rather than encouraging people to train their horses. T

I do agree with PS that it is dumbing down. Doesn't do the horse any harm to get his competition experience later on once he's ready to actually perform - in the meantime, group clinics etc would also expand his horizons and also be far more productive. (Unless obv you are selling him, but with only a few intros under his belt you'd have more explaining to do than if he had none IMO...)

Intro certainly does not fund the sport. In my area, there isn't a single affiliated Intro class, and even our RC only has a handful of entries in that one class compared to three classes of more than double the size at prelim, and two classes similarly sized at novice - so they certainly aren't funding our dressage here, it's the prelim and novice who do.

K you need a competition venue to compete at, and it's the lower level people keeping the competition venues in the black. Without them, you'd have no venue to go to.

You also seem to be failing to listen to the people like me who are telling you why they have a horse who isn't ready to canter in public but for reasons of our own want to go to competitions.

 

[khalswitz]

You have to remember that not everyone has loads of money kicking about for both training AND competing. I love competing, its why I have horses. I cannot afford to train much as well as compete so I just try to do my best on my own with the occasional lesson. You also have to remember not everyone has an arena or access to decent show jumps etc. So it can be worth the money simply to be able to have access to a nicely built SJ course and arena to ride in! I take my green horse out to compete at low levels now, I take the opportunity to compete and also have a bit of a training session on my own using the warm-up - its gives her loads of experience and lets me have a decent schooling session when at home all I can do right now is plod about the farmers stubble fields!

I see now issue with using the level previous as a "warm up". If eligible then why not?

I absolutely get that - I don't have the money for both. I spend my winter time and money on training, then compete through the summer - with occasional breaks from competing to find the training when things aren't where I want them. But the training is the key part! Geoff has been scoring pretty well at novice, but with similar comments coming back again and again, we've taken a breather to train over the winter (flat and over XC fences tbh) so we can actually aim a bit higher next season, both in %s and in jump height! Keeping going when there is a gap in the training won't fix the problem, so the money is better spent on the training then.

I understand access to courses, we don't have a set of SJ fences or an indoor school or boards or things, and getting out to some unaff can be great for that, but equally if the training isn't there, why are you bothering? If you can only jump x poles because your horse can't canter, it would make more sense to book a lesson over the fences the day after and get something out of it surely than just trot round, unless you are at a level where you can school your horse through that, in which case why are you taking it out over x poles anyway... See my train of thought?

 

[ihatework]

I do believe it applies across scenarios (tbh I do think that if competing is as nerve wracking an experience as it seems to be for many of the slightly older ladies who full up the Intro classes around here, then maybe they just shouldn't do it... Surely that isn't fun! ) - however I referred specifically to a green horse in that post because young green horses were referred to several times, especially in terms of giving them competition experience, and as nobody here was in the nervous rider scenario I moved the conversation on to respond to the points being made. I don't think you need Intro level to give a young horse experience! That is my point. As the judging and way of going etc is te same as at prelim (and in fact tougher trot work!) then really the only difference is the canter... So, I do query why it is such a big issue that it requires a whole seperate class, rather than encouraging people to train their horses.

I do agree with PS that it is dumbing down. Doesn't do the horse any harm to get his competition experience later on once he's ready to actually perform - in the meantime, group clinics etc would also expand his horizons and also be far more productive. (Unless obv you are selling him, but with only a few intros under his belt you'd have more explaining to do than if he had none IMO...)

Intro certainly does not fund the sport. In my area, there isn't a single affiliated Intro class, and even our RC only has a handful of entries in that one class compared to three classes of more than double the size at prelim, and two classes similarly sized at novice - so they certainly aren't funding our dressage here, it's the prelim and novice who do.

What about people who go out and jump 65/75cm courses? Can the same be said about them too? Should get it right at home before going out?

 

[khalswitz]

K you need a competition venue to compete at, and it's the lower level people keeping the competition venues in the black. Without them, you'd have no venue to go to.

You also seem to be failing to listen to the people like me who are telling you why they have a horse who isn't ready to canter in public but for reasons of our own want to go to competitions.

Lower level, as in up to Novice? Sure. But it's certainly not Intro.

And I know for a fact that our local training venue makes more off training than it does competitions. So the wobbly combos at Intro who Hvent put the training in really are not funding everyone else... Dressage is not like Grassroots BE either where the cost of course maintainance is covered by grassroots - higher level classes cost more to enter, which helps with average profits, and there otherwise isn't a real difference in cost to run... For sheer numbers, it fills a day, but when our local centre can run multiple days of Medium and up only a month with the same number of prelim-elem, it does highlight that the difference is not so great as seen in BE at all.

CPT, and please don't take offence if I word this badly (and hence why I was avoiding saying it tbh!) but, tbh, all I can really see that you gain from doing as you do rather than as I suggested is a jolly day out. Getting some ring experience doesn't hurt the horse, but equally waiting until he is far enough in his training (ie, not that far really!) to canter before doing so would hardly limit his education. And as far as a jolly day out goes, I am genuinely glad you do enjoy it and are happy doing that. However, when it encourages people whose horses aren't under enough control to be in a warm up ring, and starts people moaning about pot hunters and needing the level more restricted (how much more restricted can you get!!) is it not a lot of hassle for a jolly day out, when certainly IME most of the people in the class would enter the prelim instead if there was no intro, and then actually have to have some semblance of basic training in place before they go out?

As part of an RC committee who deals with grassroots riders all of the time, the majority do intro once or twice before realising prelim is essentially the same and move up. The classes are quiet, and the league is always won by the one combination who do stick out the whole season at that level. So I don't really see why we actually need the extra hassle of a whole extra level when all it really does is dumb down what is being asked for, and muddy the waters further about putting the basics in place promptly before trying to progress. What marks well at intro, and prelim, may start to drop marks noticeably at novice and up because the basics are right. Having fewer low levels means people do actually need to get the training to make sure the foundations are promptly in place before they start, and the get a shock later too.

 

[cptrayes]

Lower level, as in up to Novice? Sure. But it's certainly not Intro.

And I know for a fact that our local training venue makes more off training than it does competitions. So the wobbly combos at Intro who Hvent put the training in really are not funding everyone else... Dressage is not like Grassroots BE either where the cost of course maintainance is covered by grassroots - higher level classes cost more to enter, which helps with average profits, and there otherwise isn't a real difference in cost to run... For sheer numbers, it fills a day, but when our local centre can run multiple days of Medium and up only a month with the same number of prelim-elem, it does highlight that the difference is not so great as seen in BE at all.F2f

CPT, and please don't take offence if I word this badly (and hence why I was avoiding saying it tbh!) but, tbh, all I can really see that you gain from doing as you do rather than as I suggested is a jolly day out. Getting some ring experience doesn't hurt the horse, but equally waiting until he is far enough in his training (ie, not that far really!) to canter before doing so would hardly limit his education. And as far as a jolly day out goes, I am genuinely glad you do enjoy it and are happy doing that. However, when it encourages people whose horses aren't under enough control to be in a warm up ring, and starts people moaning about pot hunters and needing the level more restricted (how much more restricted can you get!!) is it not a lot of hassle for a jolly day out, when certainly IME most of the people in the class would enter the prelim instead if there was no intro, and then actually have to have some semblance of basic training in place before they go out?

As part of an RC committee who deals with grassroots riders all of the time, the majority do intro once or twice before realising prelim is essentially the same and move up. The classes are quiet, and the league is always won by the one combination who do stick out the whole season at that level. So I don't really see why we actually need the extra hassle of a whole extra level when all it really does is dumb down what is being asked for, and muddy the waters further about putting the basics in place promptly before trying to progress. What marks well at intro, and prelim, may start to drop marks noticeably at novice and up because the basics are right. Having fewer low levels means people do actually no get the training to make sure the foundations are promptly in place before they start, and the get a shock later too.

I don't ever SEE any Intro riders who aren't in control of their horse! I've had more trouble in warm ups from people competing at a high level with their noses stuck in the air and a 'get out of my way I'm doing Advanced' attitude than from an Intro.


One venue I go to, and one someone has posted about on here, would die without the lower level competitors.


I think your attitude is pretty elitist and shows little understanding of the majority of ordinary horse owners, K


Have you trained a few youngsters? I'm wondering if you haven't experienced a horse who is working novice level at home but sees a judge sitting behind a glass screen, turns and bolts out of the arena. It certainly gave people a laugh twenty years ago when it happened to me before Intro was available!

 

[khalswitz]

What about people who go out and jump 65/75cm courses? Can the same be said about them too? Should get it right at home before going out?

Probably to a degree, yes (excepting kids on ponies in both cases, if I haven't already stated). And I jumped 70cm for the first half of last season, so I have a very realistic picture of what a waste of time it was. Sometimes we got round, others we didn't - and the minute we started 80/90 courses out, and around 1m at home, all the basics we didn't have in place (like the canter!!) came to a head. If I had known better, instead of concentrating on 'ring practice' (which didn't make all that much difference really!) I wish id spent more time with a decent jumping instructor. Funnily enough, once we started that, everything got much better much quicker. So I sort of wish I had just stayed at home/ clinics etc until we were both better prepared. For the money we spent competing unaff sj last season, we could be a lot further on with our jumping. We were a bit more with it on the flat at keeping the quality training going, and I wish I'd done the same over fences...

I wrote for the style jumping judge at our BRC qualifiers, and the quality of riding in the 75 style jumping was shocking. She was appalled. The 85 was a lot better. This is the first year we'd run 75, and the first year we'd had so many elimination, run outs and cricket scores in a STYLE JUMPING class. It is dumbing down to the point where 'have a go' becomes messy and potentially dangerous.

 

[khalswitz]

I don't ever SEE any Intro riders who aren't in control of their horse! I've had more trouble in warm ups from people competing at a high level with their noses stick in the air and a 'get out of my way I'm doing Advanced' attitude than from an Intro.

I think your attitude is pretty elitist and shows little understanding of the majority of ordinary horse owners, K


Have you trained a few youngsters? I'm wondering if you haven't experienced a horse who is working novice level at home but sees a judge sitting behind a glass screen, turns and bolts out of the arena. It certainly gave people a laugh twenty years ago when it happened to me before Intro was available!

I steward enough at RC dressage to dread the first class... Bucking, spooking, white knuckle riders... Horses napping to each other... That has been my experience of intro classes. It isn't pretty. However, as I said, they aren't as popular up here so maybe what I've seen isn't an accurate representation. But I know anyone looking to bring on a youngster (which I do for a living CPT, so yes, I understand the first few times out are unpredictable!) up here wouldn't use an intro class, as they would scare the snot out of a young horse... I certainly haven't seen them used for young horses, just the nervous older ladies and children mainly...

Sorry if you think it's elitist. I just think there has to be standards - and dressage is about training, so if it doesn't encourage training then it's failing at it's very heart. It also isn't competing if everyone gets a pat on the back and a well done for being here and a ribbon for everyone. The judge doesn't know your personal history of difficulties, just what they see in front of them. And we were god awful in iur first few comps - I was bolted with, nearly bucked off, and missed every marker in iurmfirst few tests, and flew over more jumps than my horse did when he started jumping. But it's through that I've realised that all the 'well done for trying and being here's didn't actually help me make anything better. The system isn't encouraging and intuitive in that way at all. If I'd had someone tell me to stop fretting and get his canter right before going out, and I had been more confident with what he knew, we could have avoided a lot of problems! It would still have been hair raising then first few times, but we'd have known where we were going much better, rather than concentrating so much on the ring and what we were trying to convey there.

 

[khalswitz]

Probably to a degree, yes (excepting kids on ponies in both cases, if I haven't already stated). And I jumped 70cm for the first half of last season, so I have a very realistic picture of what a waste of time it was. Sometimes we got round, others we didn't - and the minute we started 80/90 courses out, and around 1m at home, all the basics we didn't have in place (like the canter!!) came to a head. If I had known better, instead of concentrating on 'ring practice' (which didn't make all that much difference really!) I wish id spent more time with a decent jumping instructor. Funnily enough, once we started that, everything got much better much quicker. So I sort of wish I had just stayed at home/ clinics etc until we were both better prepared. For the money we spent competing unaff sj last season, we could be a lot further on with our jumping. We were a bit more with it on the flat at keeping the quality training going, and I wish I'd done the same over fences...

I wrote for the style jumping judge at our BRC qualifiers, and the quality of riding in the 75 style jumping was shocking. She was appalled. The 85 was a lot better. This is the first year we'd run 75, and the first year we'd had so many elimination, run outs and cricket scores in a STYLE JUMPING class. It is dumbing down to the point where 'have a go' becomes messy and potentially dangerous.

To add: not just because it was 75cm, but because people regularly jumping and doing well at 70cm unaff didn't understand the difference between simple courses with few fillers and spreads, and an up to height, up to width qualifying course with lots of fillers, and then didn't have the skills to ride it. That could still happen at bigger heights, but by then most people have learned some more skills that they can use when they find themselves out of their depth.

The same happened at our RC HT qualifiers, where the entire 80 team failed to get round (3/4 falling off) because they didn't realise the difference between going for a jolly at 80cm over some XC fences and round a simple course, and an 80cm qualifier for a big championship, that was up to height and width and technical. One girl wound up in hospital.

In dressage, it doesn't get dangerous in the same way, but that still doesn't excuse the dumbing down IMO

 

[cptrayes]

In what way is it dumbing down for someone who would not otherwise compete at all to go out at Intro? Those people seem to be being ignored in this discussion. As are people who are happy pootling and really aren't interested in progressing. Surely there's room for us all, and no need for anyone to be looking down on anyone else?

 

[Farma]

I have a client that has a broken back who's major achievement in the last few years has been winning a walk and trot test, she could never canter now but these tests haven given her a lot to aim for. Also my niece at 9 took my 16'1 to a w & t test and still displays her Rossette and pics proudly from doing them ....why would anyone begrudge anyone else the chance to compete at what they feel is within their capability? You never know the reasons behind it!!!

 

[Honey08]

I understand it's all within the rules, but even so I can't help finding it a bit "meh" seeing someone who could do so much more sticking at lower levels. I know someone that has their AI and a few expensive horses that has been winning at intro for the past few years and occasional prelim too. Regularly getting high 60s to mid 70s and posting pics of rosettes on Facebook. I just see it all as a bit tasteless.

 

[Caol Ila]

A lot of people on this thread have given reasons for competing at Intro. Who is to begrudge them? I certainly won't.

I think I dumbed down dressage, single-handedly, back in the day when I was competing at Second Level (in your language, Medium) more than anyone has ever achieved at Intro.

And like I said in my previous post, the people who are elevating the sport, the ones setting the standard, the Carl Hesters and Michael Eilbergs and Debbie MacDonalds of the world, are not slogging around Intro, Prelim, or Novice tests anyway. So really, when people talk about standards, come on, when you are looking at the lower levels of dressage, that is most assuredly the LAST place on earth to look for people setting standards in the sport. But those people are out having fun, enjoying their horses, keeping the show circuit financially afloat.

 

[spookypony]

HEY, what happened to my bit?

1. Enter at A and wiggle down the centre line.

2. Halt at G with bum squished out to one side.

3. Move off as if stung by a bee, stop and stare in amazement at the judge's hair color, turn right.

4. decide that you don't want to track left at C

5. crab round the corner and set off fly leaping at H (that is where there accuracy comes in!!!)

6. pick up perfectly at K and carry on as if nothing happened

7. Working canter at A and complete 20 metre-ish egg shaped pattern

8. include large buck when passing X

9. KX walk across diagonal on a long rein

10. XM still in walk proceed to raise horses head as if imitating a giraffe staring at something no-one else can even see in the distance, extra points for snorting

11 MA sideways crab movement in trot still doing impression of giraffe


Adding my bit...

12. K Canter very close to the rail

13. between E and H rider to hit the rail with their foot, horse explodes bucking, riders fall off

(yes, we did that at our first test )

Guess we'll have to add it in here, with some extra bits...

14. HCMB rider, limping, leads horse, trying to assess extent of damage to hip.

15. B re-mount from ground, while horse spinning like a top.

16. BFAK impatient passage.

17. K levade, demi-pirouette on hind legs only, skitter to X.

 

[BYR]

I havnt read this whole thread it is far to long but I will say next Sunday we are hoping to take a 4yo out to his first show.

He can canter a 20m circle albeit a wobbly one. I have ridden at Medium BD and would say I am an experienced rider.

However... we will enter the intro test as it is a great experience for him to just be at the show and meet other horses and experience the vibe. You cant get the buzz of a show at a clinic or lesson. I couldn't care less if he wins or comes last as long as it is an enjoyable experience and he learns something from the day as soon as he is able to canter a non wobbly circle we will progress to Prelims but may still do the intro as a warm up, I hope we wont be considered out of place as we will no doubtably be recognisable as a big gangley baby!

I think the intros are a great idea for baby horses and less confident riders - lets keep them going!

 

[Honey08]

That's exactly the type of horse and rider they are meant for BYR.

people shorten names nowadays, intro is short for Introduction, ie an introduction to training/dressage. Prelim = preliminary for horses in their early stages of training. Then novice, for novice stages.. We've dumbed it all down and BD will never change the rules as the lower levels probably pay the bills.

 

[spookypony]

As usual, I can see every side to this argument (and there appear to be more than two operational on this thread)...

My German background predisposes me to remembering that the word "elementary" doesn't mean "difficult" (even if it can be used to make the Dr Watsons of this world feel like idiots); similarly, the German equivalent, "L", stands for "leicht" (easy). I, personally, don't want to faff around at levels below this forever, now that I have a horse that is more than capable of going farther. From this point of view, I can understand that PS and kh, far from wanting to discourage less experienced combinations, feel that the lowest levels, rather than encouraging/building confidence, in fact subliminally undermine this confidence by placing higher levels, or even just canter, on some sort of pedestal of accomplishment. This argument is akin to those that argue that by telling children that maths is hard, you make them rubbish at maths, because they believe it's hard.

On the other side, I struggled for several years to get my other horse just to perform consistently at Prelim and Novice. It wasn't for lack of good lessons or trying to improve. His issues in that respect were just too complex for me to disentangle, and as I've been told repeatedly, no professional in his right mind would ever have bothered (the word "hamburger" came up more than once...). Now, we've changed disciplines. But as a result, I now understand that there are many reasons a person might be choosing to remain at a level that others might see as below serious consideration.

For example, on my old yard were many riders that competed only occasionally, in local unaffiliated competitions. One had had a very bad scare on her otherwise very well-behaved horse. She sat beautifully, but was mortally terrified of cantering him. For quite a while, she rode in local unaffiliated intros, generally placing very well, until at long last, she built up the courage to try a prelim. I've never seen anyone so relieved and happy to have cantered two 20m circles. Perhaps a sports psychologist would have got her there faster than a year of intro tests, but on the other hand, she'd probably still be waiting for her first appointment with one now.

That yard also asked me to judge some intros and prelims in its own tiny, yard-only league. I confess I was extremely baffled when one kid was practically led around an intro test by a relative: how the heck does one judge a test when the rider isn't doing the steering? The kid in question does, however, have severe health difficulties...

Where is the line to be drawn, between encouraging the garden-variety hobby rider to try low-level competition (in an effort to encourage a higher standard of riding?), and making the competition so simple as to be either meaningless (how do you define "meaningful"?), or to place the previously-low levels on a false pedestal? Can a line even be drawn?

 

[teapot]

The same happened at our RC HT qualifiers, where the entire 80 team failed to get round (3/4 falling off) because they didn't realise the difference between going for a jolly at 80cm over some XC fences and round a simple course, and an 80cm qualifier for a big championship, that was up to height and width and technical. One girl wound up in hospital.

But what makes you think the same won't happen at 90? Aside from any qualification rules that there are.