Conflicting advice and information on backing

[FrostKitten]

A very brief summary of the situation, but happy to add more detail in response to any questions.

My horse was backed slowly over winter, to the point of walking and trotting comfortably in the arena and had been seen by a natural horsemanship trainer earlier in the year for starting (lungeing and bitting). Then went on injury in February and was never finished off. I moved her in April to a new yard who after the injury cleared started to work her, taking her back to ground zero and have been doing the groundwork for the last 2-2.5 months. I am aware she needed some rehabilitation on ground manners and for the farrier but they don't want to get on her yet saying she needs more training. My knowledge of the breed is that they are incredibly easy to train and can be easily backed over a period of weeks.

Any advice?

Note: My old trainers produced ponies for HOYS, and whilst they sometimes struggled to get in the number of sessions I do believe they did a good job (i.e. she was well behaved and didn't buck or rear during training). I really like my new yard and the groom/YO but as trainers, they do not feel that she was backed properly before and have taken her back to ground zero).

 

[windand rain]

Personally I think you are being taken for a ride with your new trainers as assume you are paying per session. Firstly I have made some assumptions that a the pony is older than 3 or better still 4
b the injury is fully healed and there was not much muscle loss
c the previous trainers were competent in starting a horse and got on and did the basic bitting tacking up and riding away in walk and trot.
d the new trainers actually know what they are doing
should they think they need to refresh their work it should not take more than 2 weeks

 

[Rowreach]

And presumably you're paying extra for this?

 

[dixie]

Personally I think you are being taken for a ride with your new trainers as assume you are paying per session.

Iagree with this - 2.5m is a long time if there haven’t been any issues.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Out of interest, what breed is she?

If you've had pro producers getting to walk and trot in arena, I'm very baffled as to another 2.5 months onwards with new yard. Something is really ringing alarm bells for me. Do you watch these sessions?

Can you send her back to producers for a month to get her going?

 

[AmyMay]

Why don’t they think she was started properly? What issues have they told you about?

 

[splashgirl45]

sounds very odd to me. someone doesnt know what they are doing and are charging you .. if she has already been ridden in walk and trot, it should only have taken a couple of weeks to get her back to where she was. either these people are stringing you along or the other yard didnt do a good job. you need to find out which..

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I think they may be trying it on I would consider sending the horse back to the producers you used originally or get them down to assess the horse.

My experience is the show producers I have known have been brilliant and I can't ever say I have seen them struggle with any horse they were presented with.

What type of horse is she?

 

[FrostKitten]

Personally I think you are being taken for a ride with your new trainers as assume you are paying per session. Firstly I have made some assumptions that a the pony is older than 3 or better still 4
b the injury is fully healed and there was not much muscle loss
c the previous trainers were competent in starting a horse and got on and did the basic bitting tacking up and riding away in walk and trot.
d the new trainers actually know what they are doing
should they think they need to refresh their work it should not take more than 2 weeks

a She's 5 years old
b Ahe had an abscess which we think re-infected, she was out of work for 2.5 months and lost a lot of muscle and weight during that time. We also discovered she had pain everywhere which we fixed with two physio sessions before she was brought back into work. She was on her new yard for 1.5 months before we started training.
c They produce HOYS ponies, less experience with larger horses but I was also involved in her training, alongside a natural horsemanship trainer. She was under saddle for about a month in walk and trot off the lead rein
d They train horses professionally for riders in the area and do riding lessons, but they do not take horses to produce like my previous trainers

I will add that as she is so large my previous trainers did not work with picking up her feet, so when she arrived at her new yard she was not good with the farrier, but over the last couple of months as she is on full livery they have worked on this and she's now fine.

This is what she looked like 3 weeks ago. She's currently in 4-days a week of lungeing/long-reining, previously was doing 2/3 days a week.

 

[FrostKitten]

And presumably you're paying extra for this?

Yes, I pay per session on top of my full livery fee. I originally paid about £700 to have her started by a Natural Horsemanship trainer and then with her ground and ridden sessions by my old trainer. I was lungeing her myself 2/3 times a week on top of this.

 

[FrostKitten]

Iagree with this - 2.5m is a long time if there haven’t been any issues.

My old trainers said she's one of the easiest horses they've ever worked with even though she's huge and they are used to working with ponies. The only issue currently is that she was underweight and unmuscled when she arrived, and then had an abscess reinfection but she arrived in April and we didn't start training until the end of May - during this time she was put back into the pasture so started to gain weight and gain some fitness.

 

[ycbm]

Well the horse isn't being taken for a ride, but you are!
.

 

[FrostKitten]

Out of interest, what breed is she?

If you've had pro producers getting to walk and trot in arena, I'm very baffled as to another 2.5 months onwards with new yard. Something is really ringing alarm bells for me. Do you watch these sessions?

Can you send her back to producers for a month to get her going?

She's an Irish Draught.

I do not watch the sessions but they send me pictures and videos as my old trainers do, I have seen my trainers working with other horses and they are experienced and train other riders and other people's horses alongside being the YO/Groom for my yard.

It would cost £600 alone in travelling costs to send her back to the old trainers as they are at the other end of the country (I recently moved back home). I could send her away to another professional for more training, but I am just trying to figure out if it should be taking so long to get her back to where she was before. As this is my yard trainer and I like them as people, I don't want to piss them off if I am in the wrong here and as they look after her day-to-day and will be my go-to trainer for riding, etc. it's in my best interest to keep using them as long as it's going well.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I’d be having a word. Why don’t they want to get on her? What is she doing that they don’t? Will you get on her if they won’t? What exactly are you paying them for in all of this?



I’m slowly preparing mine for backing. He’s three. He’s got lunging down, longlining we are working on, he’s been leant over, he’s had tack on and he knows what trotting poles and small jumps are on the lunge. He will be sat on in December then have a wee holiday until the better weather where he will get a few weeks reminder and then we will start hacking.

I’ve been doing the work over time with mine as he is mine. But they seem to be taking the piss with a clients horse, I’d be questioning this and where my money is going.

 

[FrostKitten]

I’d be having a word. Why don’t they want to get on her? What is she doing that they don’t? Will you get on her if they won’t? What exactly are you paying them for in all of this?



I’m slowly preparing mine for backing. He’s three. He’s got lunging down, longlining we are working on, he’s been leant over, he’s had tack on and he knows what trotting poles and small jumps are on the lunge. He will be sat on in December then have a wee holiday until the better weather where he will get a few weeks reminder and then we will start hacking.

I’ve been doing the work over time with mine as he is mine. But they seem to be taking the piss with a clients horse, I’d be questioning this and where my money is going.

They say they want her to be more comfortable /understanding in what she in being asked to do on the ground before getting in the saddle. They think that me putting pressure on them is rushing her, but I've had her for a year and she's spent 6 months in training already. I was told by my old trainers she would only need to be long-reined for a few weeks plus building her muscle before someone should hop back on.

My plans with her (as I've told my new trainers) are that I just want her to be safe so that I walk and trot in the arena, doing online entry dressage until we are both comfortable and fit enough to canter, and then move from there. I would also keep her maybe 1-day a week in ridden schooling (including hacking) to continue to bring her on, and have myself in 1-day a week of riding lessons, I'm in absolutely no rush to start jumping or galloping.

 

[FrostKitten]

Why don’t they think she was started properly? What issues have they told you about?

When she arrived she had not had her feet handled by my old trainers and they'd not ever fully groomed her so you couldn't touch her bum or back legs (they were told of this when I moved her), but I know that her front end, face, etc. were all desensitized. My new trainers couldn't believe a horse started under saddle had not been completely handled.

We later found out she was in horrible pain, which is why she was funny about her bum and back legs, she was given two physio sessions which cleared that up, and then she was cleared to come back into work at the mid/end of May.

No behavioural issues, she needed a few weeks of regular handling and time to settle into the new yard after the abscess to get her manners back but she's just a big young horse, not nasty and relatively calm as is a trait of her breed (Irish Draught).

 

[ycbm]

What was she in pain with? What was the cause?
.

 

[Renvers]

I’d be having a word. Why don’t they want to get on her? What is she doing that they don’t? Will you get on her if they won’t? What exactly are you paying them for in all of this?

But they seem to be taking the piss with a clients horse, I’d be questioning this and where my money is going.

I agree, I would want them to be able to tell you why they won't progress her training, what plan they propose. They are professionals doing a job for you, you are paying for results. Yes horses are not machines but they should have options to progress a horses training in line with what the owner has paid them to do.

I have ridden green ID's and they are lovely horses. The largest one it felt a bit like he was still figuring out his limbs sometime, after all the back legs are a long way from the brain! But a genuine breed and really trainable. The pain worries me, has it really all been addressed in only two physio sessions?

Do you spend anytime with the horse yourself or do they do everything? Teaching them to pick up feet is something you could work on a few minutes everyday along with basic manners as a no pressure activity without pressuring the horse or you having to pay extra.

 

[FrostKitten]

sounds very odd to me. someone doesnt know what they are doing and are charging you .. if she has already been ridden in walk and trot, it should only have taken a couple of weeks to get her back to where she was. either these people are stringing you along or the other yard didnt do a good job. you need to find out which..

Both trainers do their own clinics. My old trainers produce HOYS ponies and on their yard they have a lot of client horses that they produce and compete, as well as their own ponies. Their young children also ride some of these horses. They also have a riding school which I was a part of whilst I was with them, so they assessed my riding ability in relation to where they had gotten my horse to.

My new trainer doesn't produce horses for other people, in the sense he doesn't keep them but he does ride them and also acts as a riding instructor. I was told she would only need a couple of weeks of long-reining before being brought back into work by my old trainers - due to the state she arrived in at the new yard I understand she also needed a lot of work to get her fitness back up. This is what she looked like a few weeks ago.

 

[ycbm]

Have you asked why she is not being ridden? What answer are they giving?
.

 

[FrostKitten]

What was she in pain with? What was the cause?
.

We aren't sure, physio said she might have taken a fall at some point but my old yard and her old owner says this isn't the case and they know her previous history as well.

She had pain all over her back and back legs which resulted in her squealing at a farrier appointment earlier in the year. We don't know when the pain started as aside from the abscesses she was never lame or sour - and we have videos of her being in work which seemed okay.

My only guess is that restricted turnout over winter gave her pain, but there were over 40 other horses at the yard in the same position and none of them had any issues.

 

[FrostKitten]

Have you asked why she is not being ridden? What answer are they giving?
.

They say they want her to be more comfortable /understanding in what she in being asked to do on the ground before getting in the saddle. They think that me putting pressure on them is rushing her, but I've had her for a year and she's spent 6 months in training already. I was told by my old trainers she would only need to be long-reined for a few weeks plus building her muscle before someone should hop back on.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

They say they want her to be more comfortable /understanding in what she in being asked to do on the ground before getting in the saddle. They think that me putting pressure on them is rushing her, but I've had her for a year and she's spent 6 months in training already. I was told by my old trainers she would only need to be long-reined for a few weeks plus building her muscle before someone should hop back on.

My plans with her (as I've told my new trainers) are that I just want her to be safe so that I walk and trot in the arena, doing online entry dressage until we are both comfortable and fit enough to canter, and then move from there. I would also keep her maybe 1-day a week in ridden schooling (including hacking) to continue to bring her on, and have myself in 1-day a week of riding lessons, I'm in absolutely no rush to start jumping or galloping.

Sounds iffy to me. If the horse was showing clear signs that you couldn’t get on it then I’d understand however if all the videos are of good work then I’d say they are milking it. The horse has already been ridden and was calm and accepting so I don’t understand what the issue is here?

 

[Renvers]

We aren't sure, physio said she might have taken a fall at some point but my old yard and her old owner says this isn't the case and they know her previous history as well.

She had pain all over her back and back legs which resulted in her squealing at a farrier appointment earlier in the year. We don't know when the pain started as aside from the abscesses she was never lame or sour - and we have videos of her being in work which seemed okay.

My only guess is that restricted turnout over winter gave her pain, but there were over 40 other horses at the yard in the same position and none of them had any issues.

Has your vet seen her to diagnose the source of pain or only a Physio? Falls can be serious or not, I would think it unlikely restricted turnout itself would cause pain. How has her rehab post abscess and box rest been managed, has the vet given the okay to return to work?

 

[FrostKitten]

I agree, I would want them to be able to tell you why they won't progress her training, what plan they propose. They are professionals doing a job for you, you are paying for results. Yes horses are not machines but they should have options to progress a horses training in line with what the owner has paid them to do.

I have ridden green ID's and they are lovely horses. The largest one it felt a bit like he was still figuring out his limbs sometime, after all the back legs are a long way from the brain! But a genuine breed and really trainable. The pain worries me, has it really all been addressed in only two physio sessions?

Do you spend anytime with the horse yourself or do they do everything? Teaching them to pick up feet is something you could work on a few minutes everyday along with basic manners as a no pressure activity without pressuring the horse or you having to pay extra.

It's one of the reasons I paid extra to get an ID, their temperament and ability to easily train. My understanding from ID dealers/breeders is that you can back and ride away this breed in a matter of weeks. Of course, I'd rather take a bit longer and start her properly which is why I spent so much on getting her started and handled by a natural horsemanship trainer last year.

I don't currently spend any time with her as she's on full livery and after almost a year of lungeing I don't feel I can do it justice anymore. The feet issue we believe was linked to the back issue, as her physio has now cleared her she is great to pick up her feet and will even nap for the farrier. We do not believe she is in any pain now. We've also put her on Stroppy Mare as my trainer says she seems to be uncomfortable when in season. We also got everything checked and updated (teeth, saddle, etc.)

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

We aren't sure, physio said she might have taken a fall at some point but my old yard and her old owner says this isn't the case and they know her previous history as well.

She had pain all over her back and back legs which resulted in her squealing at a farrier appointment earlier in the year. We don't know when the pain started as aside from the abscesses she was never lame or sour - and we have videos of her being in work which seemed okay.

My only guess is that restricted turnout over winter gave her pain, but there were over 40 other horses at the yard in the same position and none of them had any issues.

Some horses don’t so well with being in constantly, I wouldn’t want my youngster in anymore than necessary and I couldn’t have him at a yard with no winter turnout.

Standing in a box constantly is not good for animals built to roam.

 

[ycbm]

I found this previous thread giving a lot more information. If the horse arrived at the new trainer in that condition, after months of box rest in a tiny box for a horse that big, then it's less surprising that the yard wants to take time to build her back up. Did you test her for PSSM?

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/long-term-abscess-and-stiffness-issues.805408/

 

[ycbm]

I don't currently spend any time with her

If you don't go and see her, and don't give the trainer any impression that you are keen to get riding, then they seem to be just taking it at their pace and their convenience, with your money. That's perfectly reasonable unless you tell them otherwise.
.

 

[FrostKitten]

Has your vet seen her to diagnose the source of pain or only a Physio? Falls can be serious or not, I would think it unlikely restricted turnout itself would cause pain. How has her rehab post abscess and box rest been managed, has the vet given the okay to return to work?

She was seen by a vet twice for her abscess, but no she was assessed by both the Physio and Farrier at walk and trot. As she's showing no discomfort, lameness or pain after the sessions we have no reason to get her checked out by the vet. The physio checked her over and her muscles were tight all over, she was much better after the first session but it only cleared after the second.

At this yard, the Physio is usually the first point of contact for a lame and uncomfortable horse, unless it's an obvious injury that only a vet can help with.

 

[FrostKitten]

I found this previous thread giving a lot more information. If the horse arrived at the new trainer in that condition, after months of box rest in a tiny box for a horse that big, then it's less surprising that the yard wants to take time to build her back up. Did you test her for PSSM?

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/long-term-abscess-and-stiffness-issues.805408/

No, I did ask the Physio if it could be PSSM (and therefore I should get that tested and treated) but she insisted it was likely a fall and then went ahead and did the sessions with her. Nobody on my yard seems to know anything about PSSM and my vet was uncontactable at the time to ask.

I also asked her old owner who breeds ID's and he'd never heard of PSSM.