Conflicting advice and information on backing

[ycbm]

I've been reading your previous threads FK, and if I've read right, you bought an unbroken four year old 16.3 mare likely to mature over 17 hands as a first horse for a 5ft 4 person? That seems a very odd choice and I'm wondering if it's affecting how the trainer is handling things.
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[FrostKitten]

If you don't go and see her, and don't give the trainer any impression that you are keen to get riding, then they seem to be just taking it at their pace and their convenience, with your money. That's perfectly reasonable unless you tell them otherwise.
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I have regular updates with my trainer, they know that I am keen on riding but there isn't a riding school or any horses for me to ride at my current yard so other than do lungeing sessions with her there isn't much that I can do. She's on full livery so her feed, grooming, feet picking, washing, etc. is all done for me.

 

[FrostKitten]

I've been reading your previous threads FK, and if I've read right, you bought an unbroken four year old 16.3 mare likely to mature over 17 hands as a first horse for a 5ft 4 person? That seems a very odd choice and I'm wondering if it's affecting how the trainer is handling things.
.

Yes, I am sure this is the case but I don't have a solid training plan of when they expect her to be ready.

Her old owner and my old trainers (yard and natural horsemanship) were also aware of the situation which is why she was originally backed so slowly. I have a lot of experience with handling horses from when I was younger, but have never had one of my own due to finances. My old yard assessed my riding ability and used that as a basis for when my horse would be ready for me to get on and then us progress together with regular lessons and schooling.

I have owned this horse for over a year and she was on DIY livery until I moved back home at the beginning of the year, so I have spent a lot of time with her myself and done a lot of her training (both assisted and unassisted).

Last year there were not many options in terms of horses that were in my budget and did not have health issues that needed a lot of care, or wouldn't be able to carry my weight. I researched and got the best horse in terms of temperament that I could afford. Yes, she's young, but her breed are known for their temperament and trainability and many short less experienced people choose the breed. Everyone who works with her loves her and says she's so easy to deal with as she learns so quickly.

 

[Renvers]

Your mare has had a lot to deal with lately. Have you considered giving her some time off in a field to just stretch and have a holiday? That will help her regain strength and conditions, it will also give her a mental break after the abscess treatment and box rest.

ID's are lovely but the develop slowly physically and mentally so might be good to take the pressure off. YCBM's advice re PSSM is a good shout, I don't know much about it but I have read many places that it is more common in Heavy breeds and can be manageable through diet. Maybe look into that too.

Talk to your vet too, I am like you and trust my horses' physio, farrier, chiro etc but will always have a chat with my vet about anything that worries me. He is always happy to answer questions, even the sillier ones in the service of horse welfare. Plus if something turns out to be serious he is eventually going to treat it so prefers to be informed even if it turns out to be nothing.

 

[ycbm]

Yes, I am sure this is the case but I don't have a solid training plan of when they expect her to be ready.

Have you asked for one?
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[FrostKitten]

Your mare has had a lot to deal with lately. Have you considered giving her some time off in a field to just stretch and have a holiday? That will help her regain strength and conditions, it will also give her a mental break after the abscess treatment and box rest.

ID's are lovely but the develop slowly physically and mentally so might be good to take the pressure off. YCBM's advice re PSSM is a good shout, I don't know much about it but I have read many places that it is more common in Heavy breeds and can be manageable through diet. Maybe look into that too.

Talk to your vet too, I am like you and trust my horses' physio, farrier, chiro etc but will always have a chat with my vet about anything that worries me. He is always happy to answer questions, even the sillier ones in the service of horse welfare. Plus if something turns out to be serious he is eventually going to treat it so prefers to be informed even if it turns out to be nothing.

There's no option for her to live out at the current yard and the fields are really quite small so she does need to be kept in regular work to build her fitness. Since April when she moved she's only been kept in a couple of days when she couldn't walk on 4 legs but was turned out with a poultice boot for the rest of the time so she could just be a horse with her field buddy. Now she's in regular work it only takes away from her stable time as opposed to her field time, it's the best I can do with the current field schedules.

She's currently in overnight turnout so is only in for a few hours a day which works better for her as she prefers to be in the field, will keep monitoring her and test for PSSM if we notice any stiffness (or when the vet next comes out) but as of right now she's doing ok. I will definitely try and get back in contact with my vet to speak to them.

 

[FrostKitten]

Have you asked for one?
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Yes, when she first arrived on the new yard I asked for a training plan to get her back under saddle. They suggested 18 weeks of training, which I disputed giving details of her previous training at her old yard which included light backing in the arena in walk and trot without discomfort. I did not receive an updated timeline, except that she was supposed to be leaned on a few weeks ago but I am not sure why this didn't happen.

I'm not the most confrontational/assertive person but am really trying to manage expectations with my trainer. I recently gave them details of a lightweight trainer who was happy to sit on her and support them in her training as I wanted them to progress faster but they said this wouldn't be in her best interest to 'rush her'.

I may be wrong but I don't consider it rushing at this point as even after backing she will spend months in walk and trot in the arena and then out hacking before she's pushed for anything else. If she's comfortable maybe I send her to the nearby XC course (she loves to run) with my trainer whilst it's still open, and some pole work to help her build her topline, but no plans to push her for more until next year.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I think you need a proper and frank talk with the current trainer to find out exactly what is going on and what their plan is for her. What the issues are (if any) and what can be done to fix them, what your expectations are etc... all needs to be out in the open.

I just don't feel *right* about the situation and I don't think the OP does either or they wouldn't have posted.

 

[FrostKitten]

I think you need a proper and frank talk with the current trainer to find out exactly what is going on and what their plan is for her. What the issues are (if any) and what can be done to fix them, what your expectations are etc... all needs to be out in the open.

I just don't feel *right* about the situation and I don't think the OP does either or they wouldn't have posted.

Yes, it just doesn't feel quite right to me. I know they bring ID's off the field at 3/4 and can back them in weeks and I know that sending a horse off for professional backing for a horse with no issues takes about 6 weeks.

I am sure my trainer just wants to do the right thing, but it makes my uneasy that it takes so long.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Maybe don't get hung up on what happens to other horses or other members of the same breed? Yours did have a big issue with an abscess after all.

You need to look at the horse in front of you and decide what is right for her.

 

[Rowreach]

When she arrived she had not had her feet handled by my old trainers and they'd not ever fully groomed her so you couldn't touch her bum or back legs (they were told of this when I moved her), but I know that her front end, face, etc. were all desensitized. My new trainers couldn't believe a horse started under saddle had not been completely handled.

We later found out she was in horrible pain, which is why she was funny about her bum and back legs, she was given two physio sessions which cleared that up, and then she was cleared to come back into work at the mid/end of May.

No behavioural issues, she needed a few weeks of regular handling and time to settle into the new yard after the abscess to get her manners back but she's just a big young horse, not nasty and relatively calm as is a trait of her breed (Irish Draught).

But this is basic basic stuff, feet, grooming, instilling all the expected manners. And these were NH "trainers"?

With that and the physical issues I can understand why the new trainers have gone right back to the beginning, but unless they have hit a snag somewhere, they should have been at least hopping on and off after a couple a weeks.

Generally the ones I've restarted have had a bit of handling and a quick spin on the lunge with tack on and then up you get! If they're pros then they've either hit a real issue and aren't telling you, or they're swinging the lead.

 

[Goldenstar]

TBH I would be happy they where taking time .
Lots pf places would do her three times a day get on board and send her home for you to deal with .
I think it’s likely she is being more difficult than their others so it’s taking longer .
Theres no substitute for going and watching them work her to help you understand .
I see your post about her physical issues I would be wanting a work up to make sure you are not trying to back a damaged individual.
Youneed to go and watch her work.

 

[FrostKitten]

But this is basic basic stuff, feet, grooming, instilling all the expected manners. And these were NH "trainers"?

With that and the physical issues I can understand why the new trainers have gone right back to the beginning, but unless they have hit a snag somewhere, they should have been at least hopping on and off after a couple a weeks.

Generally the ones I've restarted have had a bit of handling and a quick spin on the lunge with tack on and then up you get! If they're pros then they've either but a real issue and aren't telling you, or they're swinging the lead.

My natural horsemanship trainer was freelance, he worked with her on manners, bridling and to be level-headed and calm whilst being worked.

They groomed her to the point of putting tack on as she's a huge mud monster and grooming her took time out of their sessions. I groomed her fully a few times myself in between as she was so dirty, but never worked her bum as she was still quite sensitive (she's not anymore and is fully groomed daily). As the trainers all had young children they were apprehensive of tackling her back feet as she is so big (although my NH trainer did this with no issues when she was first started and I could easily pick up her front feet myself). Now after being at her new yard she falls asleep to the farrier so it's a huge change in comfort for her, we think this is in part as her old stable had little visibility so she was stressed to be kept inside and now loves her new view of all the horses in her barn.

Yes, I assumed the same that taking her back to the beginning would have meant doing each stage and moving her along if there were no issues, to the point they'd be back on in a few weeks/a month. They tell me she's very good to handle although had issues when she first arrived which were sorted in the first six weeks before we started working her as she was now being handled for more time at the beginning and end of every day (grooming, hoof clean, etc.)

 

[Tiddlypom]

I don't currently spend any time with her as she's on full livery and after almost a year of lungeing I don't feel I can do it justice anymore.

How often are you currently going to see your horse? Is she local to you?

 

[Kat]

Are they scared of her? You keep saying she's so big. She isn't that big, she's a pretty normal sized horse, while you need to give a big horse time to mature it should still be picking up its feet politely and standing to be groomed at 5 years old.

I think you need to have a chat with your yard and find out what the issue is and what their plan is. Then decide whether to continue or move her.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Sometimes when the owner of a horse in training is absent and the trainer assumes they don't have much ambition that horse is sort of a back burner horse. The trainer doesn't take it so seriously and is in no rush/has little motivation to move things along.

I am not saying this is right, only that I've seen it.

Maybe be a little more involved. Ask for a plan again, be direct, and see if you can show up to watch some training. Also, even if she's in full livery you can take her for walks, faff about with extra grooming, and so on. Perhaps if they see you more, and you are persistent about the plan and your goals, things will get kicked up a notch.

Assuming the horse is actually ready, of course.

 

[FrostKitten]

Are they scared of her? You keep saying she's so big. She isn't that big, she's a pretty normal sized horse, while you need to give a big horse time to mature it should still be picking up its feet politely and standing to be groomed at 5 years old.

I think you need to have a chat with your yard and find out what the issue is and what their plan is. Then decide whether to continue or move her.

The old yard just wouldn't risk it, but no they weren't scared of her. They said she was the easiest horse they've ever trained.

She's about 17.1/17.2hh now.

 

[Kat]

The old yard just wouldn't risk it, but no they weren't scared of her. They said she was the easiest horse they've ever trained.

She's about 17.1/17.2hh now.

Picking up all four feet is a very basic skill for a horse. I wouldn't have any faith in a trainer that wouldn't attempt to pick up the feet of a horse (in the absence of a known issue). It might take a few weeks of training to get them safely and reliably holding their feet up but a horse being big is no excuse not to train it to pick its feet up, in fact it is more important to train them to do it sensibly.

Something is not right here. You need to get more involved, be more present and start working on a back up plan.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Going back through your previous posts, there has been a lot going on.

Your mare lost a foal last year when she was 4, though it's not clear whether the foal was born alive. She was poor when you got her.

Her previous owner had her sedated for the farrier. She was initially started in an ill fitting saddle. She's been lame with the abscess. You are short (5'4") and she is large (17.1 or 2).

This does not sound like a match made in heaven. IDs, especially larger ones, are slow to mature, and when they do they need a confident rider or they will take the pee.

You need to consider whether this is ever going to work, or whether you are better to sell and get something much more suitable that you can enjoy from the get go.

There is, though, a distinct possibility that the horse has a physical issue.

 

[paddi22]

Just trying to get the timeline clear in my head. So the new trainers received a horse that had extended periods of lameness, soreness and issues with touching back end, but that had education of walking/trotting around arena with no issues?. They gave horse time at grass due to stiffness and muscle wastage and now horse has been in work 6 weeks? I can see how a horse with back end issues could take longer to get long lining and lunging comfortably. But where are they at with the backing process now and what is their reasoning behind it? they should be able to break it down to clearer explanations like "she was panicking when the longlines were on her a bit, so we had to slow the process'

I think reading between the lines there's some physical issues with the horse that the new trainers are picking up on and slowing the process down for maybe? The old yard 'not risking' something, but saying the horse was 'the easiest' horse doesn't add up. We have two year olds that pick all feet with no issues. there's something funny going on physically with the horse would be my guess. Draughts are very slow to mature and the fact it's such a large horse would be riding alarm bells for physical stuff somewhere.

 

[FrostKitten]

Going back through your previous posts, there has been a lot going on.

Your mare lost a foal last year when she was 4, though it's not clear whether the foal was born alive. She was poor when you got her.

Her previous owner had her sedated for the farrier. She was initially started in an ill fitting saddle. She's been lame with the abscess. You are short (5'4") and she is large (17.1 or 2).

This does not sound like a match made in heaven. IDs, especially larger ones, are slow to mature, and when they do they need a confident rider or they will take the pee.

You need to consider whether this is ever going to work, or whether you are better to sell and get something much more suitable that you can enjoy from the get go.

There is, though, a distinct possibility that the horse has a physical issue.

I've had her a year now, she was sedated the first time I had her seen by a farrier as the old owner told me she wasn't good - but she was good after that and now falls asleep after daily feet handling at her new yard. Previous owner had her sedated because she was scared of people and tried to kick his farrier. We've been working with her now for a year and she loves now to be groomed and cuddled, it's been a very long process even before we started her under saddle.

She was lightly backed in a breaking saddle which turned out to be a poor fit for her. She has changed shape so it's very possible that the saddle was not such a poor fit whilst she was in training as they said the saddle didn't move on her - whereas when she was fitted a couple of months ago the saddle rocked very clearly on her back. She's grown since moving to her new yard and has much visible withers.

Yes, I am short but I have quite long legs and a short body (similar length to people I know who are 5'11/6ft). In the riding school I was barely able to touch the horse I was riding as I needed my stirrups quite long. Mixture of saddle not the right size and wrong horse, but little choice at a riding school as a non-lightweight adult

 

[ester]

It seems entirely possible that the current trainers have identified holes in her training that they are patching before they go any further - you've mentioned several of those holes yourself. In addition to the physical issues she has had they are potentially just trying to give her the best chance by making sure she is strong enough physically and mentally to cope with what is going to be asked of her.

That said if you aren't happy move her and find someone else you would prefer.

 

[FrostKitten]

Just trying to get the timeline clear in my head. So the new trainers received a horse that had extended periods of lameness, soreness and issues with touching back end, but that had education of walking/trotting around arena with no issues?. They gave horse time at grass due to stiffness and muscle wastage and now horse has been in work 6 weeks? I can see how a horse with back end issues could take longer to get long lining and lunging comfortably. But where are they at with the backing process now and what is their reasoning behind it? they should be able to break it down to clearer explanations like "she was panicking when the longlines were on her a bit, so we had to slow the process'

I think reading between the lines there's some physical issues with the horse that the new trainers are picking up on and slowing the process down for maybe? The old yard 'not risking' something, but saying the horse was 'the easiest' horse doesn't add up. We have two year olds that pick all feet with no issues. there's something funny going on physically with the horse would be my guess. Draughts are very slow to mature and the fact it's such a large horse would be riding alarm bells for physical stuff somewhere.

Yes, the horse was out due to injury between February and May. We spent just under two months putting weight back on her and getting her out in the field so she could get comfortable in her new home and to work out the infection in her hoof (abscess). Prior to the abscess she was in regular work which included light backing of walk and trot in the arena without issue.

Since April we've put weight back on her, got her on a feeding plan done all of her back and teeth checks and then she's been in 7/8-ish weeks of ground training to build muscle (as her ground manners are worked on as part of her daily handling). Up until the last session she was long reining and lungeing out around the gallops and in the round pen, she works very calmly and I have videos and pictures of her progress from the trainers. Their reason for not progressing is they feel she isn't comfortable enough to progress further, but no detail of any specific red flags. She's now on Stroppy Mare as they said she's uncomfortable when in season. When originally backed she only panicked once, the first time she was on long reins she did one buck. AFAIK she's otherwise very chill about everything.

Physically we've had no issues with her prior to her going on restricted turnout over winter, she was only ever lame with the abscess and after the physio she's not shown any signs of pain anywhere. I agree that I can't fully understand why they wouldn't pick her feet up before because she's so good about it for me.

It's all a bit confusing to be honest.

I've now after pushing yesterday seen that the trainer has hopped on her, I don't know why they've decided to do it now after asking to bring another trainer in but I can say that I am happy it's progressing, she looks calm so am confident it's moving in the right direction.

 

[paddi22]

I can see why they might be not keen on another trainer coming in, it muddies the water with different riders asking different things, they have their own plan and it's their business and facilities. I don't ask for a meal at a restaurant and then bring a different chef in to help cook my meal in their kitchen.

You need to get them to pin down the issues. you can approach them nicely, say it's not clear in your head and just ask them to list out bullet points of where they are hitting roadblocks. 'Not comfortable enough' is just too vague. you need to nock the actual facts of what is happening. If they are professional producers with a good reputation then they are obviously finding issues somewhere. And if they feel she wasn't started correctly then it does delay things, but they need to be better in their communications to you and explain it clearly.

 

[Kat]

I'm getting pretty confused with the timeline etc but I think you definitely need to be more present and involved.

You need to be grooming her, picking her feet out, leading her and tacking up on a regular basis. You should be watching her training as often as possible and when appropriate being part of the training too (in preparation for taking over).

That way you can see any holes in her training and the progress being made.

I think you need to consider whether a vet work up and some physio might be a good idea to ensure that she isn't in discomfort before progressing.

You also need to consider whether this is really an appropriate horse for you right now or whether you should sell her and buy something ready for you to ride now. You might want to wait until you have had a vet work up and a heart to heart with the trainer before setting any timescale for a decision on whether to sell or keep.

 

[paddi22]

the thing that jumps out at me is the way the trainers keep saying she 'isn't comfortable enough' or is 'uncomfortable'. I'd really want to get them to pin down that. what is their definition of uncomfortable?

 

[Kat]

Yes, the horse was out due to injury between February and May. We spent just under two months putting weight back on her and getting her out in the field so she could get comfortable in her new home and to work out the infection in her hoof (abscess). Prior to the abscess she was in regular work which included light backing of walk and trot in the arena without issue.

Since April we've put weight back on her, got her on a feeding plan done all of her back and teeth checks and then she's been in 7/8-ish weeks of ground training to build muscle (as her ground manners are worked on as part of her daily handling). Up until the last session she was long reining and lungeing out around the gallops and in the round pen, she works very calmly and I have videos and pictures of her progress from the trainers. Their reason for not progressing is they feel she isn't comfortable enough to progress further, but no detail of any specific red flags. She's now on Stroppy Mare as they said she's uncomfortable when in season. When originally backed she only panicked once, the first time she was on long reins she did one buck. AFAIK she's otherwise very chill about everything.

Physically we've had no issues with her prior to her going on restricted turnout over winter, she was only ever lame with the abscess and after the physio she's not shown any signs of pain anywhere. I agree that I can't fully understand why they wouldn't pick her feet up before because she's so good about it for me.

It's all a bit confusing to be honest.

I've now after pushing yesterday seen that the trainer has hopped on her, I don't know why they've decided to do it now after asking to bring another trainer in but I can say that I am happy it's progressing, she looks calm so am confident it's moving in the right direction.

You need to pin down what they mean by not comfortable enough.

If they mean she is in pain or discomfort you need to treat it with a vet. If they mean not confident then with what, how will they deal with it, what needs to happen for them to be happy she is comfortable to progress.

 

[SOS]

I agree with TP that this doesn’t sound like a match made in heaven. A big weak baby horse that the owner wants to ride in walk and trot in the arena only for a few months and do online dressage? Sorry but a horse that size and type should be hacking out in straight lines. I wouldn’t want to be doing much circling at all until much more mature.

I also am astounded a £700 NH trainer didn’t attempt to pick up the horses feet and left her “flighty” around the back end.

What are you actually gaining from this OP? You don’t see the horse, your long term aim is to ride occasionally. Would it not be much more fun to have a part loan or lessons instead?

I don’t think the yard is taking the P. It sounds like the horse has had a very broken and strange education, is weak and is big. Previous post timelines don’t quite match up with this story and if it is just 6 weeks I’m not surprised they haven’t got on. They may be taking advantage of a more novice owner however and not justifying their decision. If you want to keep the horse and stay at this yard ask in writing for a predicted plan of action *all being well.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Yes I also found the comment about staying in the arena for months odd.

I do think the OP needs to have a talk with the current trainer. They may very well be doing their best for the horse (which does have a slightly complicated history) and possibly suit the horse well but something is odd here. I hope it is just a lack of communication, nothing more and that the horse progresses well from now on.

 

[SEL]

I've been a livery on yards where they took horses in for backing or reschooling and there were many where they only really cracked on when the owner started taking more interest than the yard would have really liked!!

'what time do you think you'll be working with her tomorrow, I'll pop over' was guaranteed to have the horse out of the field, groomed and actually doing something.

In your position I'd start scheduling times to be on the yard when they are working with your horse. If there are specific problems on the ground which is slowing the process down then see if you can do some of that work yourself. If the horse is struggling then you'll be able to see it and can make a plan.

It is frustrating when you hand over to the professionals and don't seem to be making any progress but sometimes micro management is the way forward. I would be pretty disappointed in your old trainer for not sorting out the sensitivity with the back legs if I'm honest - even if that meant insisting on a vet to see if there was a physical issue.