Conflicting advice and information on backing

[splashgirl45]

i dont see what you are getting out of this arrangement, you rarely even see the horse so why own one....you seem to be paying out lots of money and not even getting regular updates and there seems to be no progress according to what you have said. you are the customer and are paying for a service so you need to tell them that you need to know what is happening and the exact reasons for such slow progress...and if it is pain related you need a good horse vet to do a work up to sort out any problems....

 

[paddi22]

I would be pretty disappointed in your old trainer for not sorting out the sensitivity with the back legs if I'm honest - even if that meant insisting on a vet to see if there was a physical issue.

100% agree. It's odd the horse would even progress to the next level of training without this being sorted. It is just bizarre for a trainer to take money for training a horse with serious issues like that being left? You get feral yearlings in and it's not a difficult process to get them handled all over and lifting feet. I wouldn't do anything else to them till they had that in place. If a horse is having huge reactions to basic stuff like that it's a real red flag.

 

[Laafet]

My natural horsemanship trainer was freelance, he worked with her on manners, bridling and to be level-headed and calm whilst being worked.

They groomed her to the point of putting tack on as she's a huge mud monster and grooming her took time out of their sessions. I groomed her fully a few times myself in between as she was so dirty, but never worked her bum as she was still quite sensitive (she's not anymore and is fully groomed daily). As the trainers all had young children they were apprehensive of tackling her back feet as she is so big (although my NH trainer did this with no issues when she was first started and I could easily pick up her front feet myself). Now after being at her new yard she falls asleep to the farrier so it's a huge change in comfort for her, we think this is in part as her old stable had little visibility so she was stressed to be kept inside and now loves her new view of all the horses in her barn.

Yes, I assumed the same that taking her back to the beginning would have meant doing each stage and moving her along if there were no issues, to the point they'd be back on in a few weeks/a month. They tell me she's very good to handle although had issues when she first arrived which were sorted in the first six weeks before we started working her as she was now being handled for more time at the beginning and end of every day (grooming, hoof clean, etc.)

I found the grooming thing a bit weird. Not sure where you are but I have not really had a problem with mud for months now. When I was doing breakers I certainly didn't take the time grooming off the training session time! If she was that bad then I would have washed and rugged her but again at the height of summer this really is not an issue to excuse not working a horse fully? I am very confused about this whole thing - things like not picking her feet up. It's all basic stuff.

 

[FrostKitten]

I agree with TP that this doesn’t sound like a match made in heaven. A big weak baby horse that the owner wants to ride in walk and trot in the arena only for a few months and do online dressage? Sorry but a horse that size and type should be hacking out in straight lines. I wouldn’t want to be doing much circling at all until much more mature.

I also am astounded a £700 NH trainer didn’t attempt to pick up the horses feet and left her “flighty” around the back end.

What are you actually gaining from this OP? You don’t see the horse, your long term aim is to ride occasionally. Would it not be much more fun to have a part loan or lessons instead?

I don’t think the yard is taking the P. It sounds like the horse has had a very broken and strange education, is weak and is big. Previous post timelines don’t quite match up with this story and if it is just 6 weeks I’m not surprised they haven’t got on. They may be taking advantage of a more novice owner however and not justifying their decision. If you want to keep the horse and stay at this yard ask in writing for a predicted plan of action *all being well.

She would be hacking out in straight lines under schooling with her trainer to start with, but since she's most used to the arena and walk and trot that is where we would start. I mention online dressage as that's a tangible goal that we can work towards to get her moving forward nicely in walk and then in walk and trot, by following the online Intro tests which have very little circling in them.

My NH trainer did work on her back end, this was a freelancer that came to our yard about once a month and did the real groundwork of desensitizing and manners with her. Her regular trainers were the HOYS producers, but did not work with NH principals.

My long term plans are to ride her 5/6 times a week, but to start with she will still need to be worked by my trainer in continuing her education over time out hacking, XC, small jumps, etc. so my plans would be to continue to work on the more basic elements (walk and trot) in the environment where she feels most safe (the arena) until we are both ready to move on. It may be that she really loves hacking and then we'd do that instead, but she's only really ever been worked in the arena so that's all I can plan for currently.

 

[FrostKitten]

I found the grooming thing a bit weird. Not sure where you are but I have not really had a problem with mud for months now. When I was doing breakers I certainly didn't take the time grooming off the training session time! If she was that bad then I would have washed and rugged her but again at the height of summer this really is not an issue to excuse not working a horse fully? I am very confused about this whole thing - things like not picking her feet up. It's all basic stuff.

This was October-January time, based in an area with a lot of rain and she liked to roll. To overcome the grooming issue we had her in a rug to stop her from getting muddy. Yes, my new trainers also said they found it weird that grooming would be taken off of session time.

 

[FrostKitten]

Yes I also found the comment about staying in the arena for months odd.

I do think the OP needs to have a talk with the current trainer. They may very well be doing their best for the horse (which does have a slightly complicated history) and possibly suit the horse well but something is odd here. I hope it is just a lack of communication, nothing more and that the horse progresses well from now on.

*fingers crossed* I don't want to push them too hard, just need to understand what the plan is and how long it'll take from their understanding of the situation. I've already waited a year so a little longer won't hurt.

 

[FrostKitten]

I've been a livery on yards where they took horses in for backing or reschooling and there were many where they only really cracked on when the owner started taking more interest than the yard would have really liked!!

'what time do you think you'll be working with her tomorrow, I'll pop over' was guaranteed to have the horse out of the field, groomed and actually doing something.

In your position I'd start scheduling times to be on the yard when they are working with your horse. If there are specific problems on the ground which is slowing the process down then see if you can do some of that work yourself. If the horse is struggling then you'll be able to see it and can make a plan.

It is frustrating when you hand over to the professionals and don't seem to be making any progress but sometimes micro management is the way forward. I would be pretty disappointed in your old trainer for not sorting out the sensitivity with the back legs if I'm honest - even if that meant insisting on a vet to see if there was a physical issue.

We just chalked it up to stable stress at the time as she wasn't as touchy when not in the stable, but due to the way the yard was laid out there were only bays to tie up in and she refused to stand with her face to the wall - so they had to deal with her in the stable which she absolutely hated. Luckily in her new yard they can be tied up outside the stable and she has a much better view from inside her stable, she doesn't seem at all distressed anymore.

 

[FrostKitten]

i dont see what you are getting out of this arrangement, you rarely even see the horse so why own one....you seem to be paying out lots of money and not even getting regular updates and there seems to be no progress according to what you have said. you are the customer and are paying for a service so you need to tell them that you need to know what is happening and the exact reasons for such slow progress...and if it is pain related you need a good horse vet to do a work up to sort out any problems....

Currently, I don't get anything out of the arrangement. She was due to be backed in early spring but due to injury this has obviously taken longer. As it's already been a year at this point I am not going to give up on her now.

I used to spend a lot of time with her before I moved back home, but after many months of lungeing and her now being on full livery I don't feel like there's much I can add to her education right now. I chose full livery over part/DIY so that she'd have consistency in her handling, as I recognise she desperately needed this after her start in life. She's come on so quickly, it makes me happy when I do get to see the updates of her training.

Thank you for the advice, will reach out to them and double-check their plans as it seems a little bit of pushing finally got them onboard today.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I used to spend a lot of time with her before I moved back home, but after many months of lungeing and her now being on full livery I don't feel like there's much I can add to her education right now

How far is the horse from you now? How often do you visit? I think that I asked that before.

Why do you not think that you can add to her education? Just generally being around and handling/grooming your own horse would be beneficial to you and to her.

 

[DabDab]

Sounds like you are actually pretty happy with the current trainer (apart from struggling to understand their overall plan for her). So probably best to just stick whatever bits and pieces you've been told & been through with her before to the back of your mind and just focus on where she's currently at. You definitely need to get over there on a regular basis and observe how the current trainers are training her so that you can carry on with some level of consistency when you are her full time rider

 

[maya2008]

A horse who is not in pain, in the hands of professionals, should be backed/rebacked in a matter of weeks or months. Equally, no horse should carry significant weight until the age of six of thereabouts (skeletal maturity basically). I do not know how heavy you are, so it may not be an issue.

I have a heavier, short husband who is quite novice and had a ten year break from riding - we bought a native/cob cross with a leg in each corner - 15hh. So large enough to carry but small enough to handle easily. His horse was not handed over to him full time for riding until the horse was six - I trained it from backing and he continued to have lessons on other horses. His cob took probably the longest I have experienced to get going initially because I knew he would be for a novice so put a lot of emphasis on the horse’s own confidence and developing his resilience. That took nothing like the time you are talking though, and I was on in a few weeks. We then progressed gently from backing and ended up with a horse who can look after almost anyone. A child can ride him, a novice adult, a wobbly visitor…or he will go out and do dressage.

Something is up, have an honest chat with the trainer and be open to whatever they say. Then go from there.

 

[FrostKitten]

A horse who is not in pain, in the hands of professionals, should be backed/rebacked in a matter of weeks or months. Equally, no horse should carry significant weight until the age of six of thereabouts (skeletal maturity basically). I do not know how heavy you are, so it may not be an issue.

I have a heavier, short husband who is quite novice and had a ten year break from riding - we bought a native/cob cross with a leg in each corner - 15hh. So large enough to carry but small enough to handle easily. His horse was not handed over to him full time for riding until the horse was six - I trained it from backing and he continued to have lessons on other horses. His cob took probably the longest I have experienced to get going initially because I knew he would be for a novice so put a lot of emphasis on the horse’s own confidence and developing his resilience. That took nothing like the time you are talking though, and I was on in a few weeks. We then progressed gently from backing and ended up with a horse who can look after almost anyone. A child can ride him, a novice adult, a wobbly visitor…or he will go out and do dressage.

Something is up, have an honest chat with the trainer and be open to whatever they say. Then go from there.

Heavy enough that I shouldn't be riding ponies or lightweight horses, but not significantly heavy (probably no more than my tall male trainer) At max limit I could probably ride a max height Connemara, but realistically most cob types should be able to carry me. 200+ lb's including tack.

Thank you for sharing your experience, this matches what my expectation would be. I know she will need ongoing training so that she develops the confidence to deal with anything, but would have expected more within this timeframe. Will see what my next update is from my trainer!

 

[paddi22]

I would push back on the 'professional breakers should do it in a few weeks' point. If they get in a blank canvas with no physical issues that might be the case. But this horse came to them with a lot of baggage both mental and physical. undoing that can be a nightmare at times. add to that the fact it is a big developing horse. I'd rather a trainer took time and did it correctly instead of just draw reining a horse into a frame, forcing it to progress at a speed it's not developed enough for. There are definitely red flags in this horses development. I';ve never heard of an NH trainer that just leaves a horse with one end of it not being handleable and then another trainer not picking out back feet 'because she had kids'. then another professional saying the horse in 'uncomfortable'. that's a lot of different bumps in the road that different trainers have met. so I'd imagine the retraining process isn't as simple as normal.

I really hope you get the horse sorted OP. Please keep us updated as it would be great to see you get a good result.

 

[FrostKitten]

I just wanted to come back and provide an update.

Back in September last year horse started presenting refusal to move forward properly under saddle, as I understand this was relatively mild and not a major cause for concern at the time.

Between September and November, there was an outbreak of ringworm so training was sporadic and put on hold for some weeks as unfortunately, my horse came down this it as well. Training otherwise continued and I am not aware of any additional issues or worsening of symptoms.

In November horse was displaying pain symptoms again on the sides and rear hinds (refusal to pick them up and cow kicking again) we got the physio out to treat in early December - this was done twice and pain remained so we assumed it was now an issue needing medical treatment and sought assistance from a vet.

First appointment from a Vet they scanned her back (x-rays show the start of kissing spines) and the Vet believed this was not the only problem, we then booked a follow-up for horse to attend the clinic for sacroiliac scans. That appointment was today and nothing showed.

At this appointment vet did a trot up on a soft and hard surface and horse is not visibly lame to the eye but has gait abnormality in both hinds (visible at trot and canter). Best prognosis is currently hock arthritis but the next steps are referral to an equine hospital for a bone scan because we're unable to do a flexion test because she's in too much pain and becomes dangerous when handling the hinds.

Sorry that it wasn't a better update to all following!

 

[Wizpop]

So sorry to read that you are at this point now.The findings and the prognosis do at least explain a lot.

 

[Boulty]

B

 

[Boulty]

Deleted as didn't realize was an old thread

 

[Pinkvboots]

Deleted as didn't realize was an old thread

It's been updated by the op now on page 3 ?

 

[I'm Dun]

This horse has so many flags for PSSM. Has this been investigated?

 

[ycbm]

Already noted

I found this previous thread giving a lot more information. If the horse arrived at the new trainer in that condition, after months of box rest in a tiny box for a horse that big, then it's less surprising that the yard wants to take time to build her back up. Did you test her for PSSM?

https://forums.horseandhound.co.uk/threads/long-term-abscess-and-stiffness-issues.805408/

 

[FrostKitten]

This horse has so many flags for PSSM. Has this been investigated?

I asked my vet to do a PSSM test but my vet has no knowledge of the condition and hasn't indicated that they want to test for this. I also asked my yard to change her diet (and I provided the info for the switch) to feed as if she had PSSM to see if this helps relieve the symptoms but this hasn't been done yet - will raise again.

 

[FrostKitten]

Adding an update to the above as spoke to the yard - They did investigate PSSM with the vetinary clinic but the vets spoken to don't think it's PSSM. Horse is already on alfalfa free, although I'm aware that's only a part dietary change.


We'll investigate this further this week with Saracen to see what other foods we could use to try and see if we can get final resolution before trying to bone scan for arthritis or other diagnosis.

 

[I'm Dun]

Adding an update to the above as spoke to the yard - They did investigate PSSM with the vetinary clinic but the vets spoken to don't think it's PSSM. Horse is already on alfalfa free, although I'm aware that's only a part dietary change.


We'll investigate this further this week with Saracen to see what other foods we could use to try and see if we can get final resolution before trying to bone scan for arthritis or other diagnosis.

Being alfalfa free isnt a treatment for PSSM. You will also find vets generally clueless. Saracen is unlikely to have feed suitable from when I've looked previously but even if they do a change in diet isnt going to resolve it.

You need to test for type 1 although lots have type 2 its somewhere to start. If your on facebook I've added a link to the group that tends to be the best its moderated by a friend of mine. If not theres some very good videos they make on youtube and a website.

With PSSM you need to do your own research a lot of time. I only know of one vet that recommended testing out of probably 80 positive horses

https://pssmawareness.com/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/520902158633795

 

[I'm Dun]

And I think at this point you would be well placed to be dealing with the vet directly rather than letting the yard manage it. You've been very, very, very hands-off with your horse and it's made things pretty complicated already, so I'd be taking a much more active role now.

 

[FrostKitten]

Being alfalfa free isnt a treatment for PSSM. You will also find vets generally clueless. Saracen is unlikely to have feed suitable from when I've looked previously but even if they do a change in diet isnt going to resolve it.

You need to test for type 1 although lots have type 2 its somewhere to start. If your on facebook I've added a link to the group that tends to be the best its moderated by a friend of mine. If not theres some very good videos they make on youtube and a website.

With PSSM you need to do your own research a lot of time. I only know of one vet that recommended testing out of probably 80 positive horses

https://pssmawareness.com/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/520902158633795

Thanks for the info. I'll read through your link as the ones I read did mention either removing Alfalfa or using under 50% starch content as part of a dietary change to reduce symptoms of PSSM. I'm not involved in the decision for food as it's done by the Saracen rep for a feeding plan with any veterinary notes, but of course, there are no dietary restrictions listed right now for my horse.

All horses at my yard are on Saracen so that's why the YM wants to start with them to see if they have anything suitable.

And I think at this point you would be well placed to be dealing with the vet directly rather than letting the yard manage it. You've been very, very, very hands-off with your horse and it's made things pretty complicated already, so I'd be taking a much more active role now.

As my horse is on full-livery they yard all of the appointments and treatments for the owners, I did speak to my vet about the current treatment and investigations but haven't been involved in the PSSM discussions to date.