Conflicting tuition advice

[little_critter]

But do you have naturally toe- out conformation when you walk? I do. And if I try to force my toes in, I just create tension which doesn't help the horse.
I think too many instructors teach people how to ride as though they were 5'10 skinny people with no boobs, entirely symmetrical bodies with no weaknesses or injuries - and all it does is create tension and eventually damage to joints and muscles (human and horse).

I would say that when I walk my toes are pretty straight forward. However when I sit on a horse, if I relax, my thigh conformation causes my leg to roll outwards from the hip so my knees end up pointing away from the saddle and my toes stick out. It takes tension in my hip joints to keep everything pointing forward.

 

[Throw_away]

I am also a toe-out rider, it is something that I certainly need to work on but I do feel that the amount of "knee-on" my new instructor is asking for far outweighs being just enough to sort out my toes.

 

[little_critter]

I am also a toe-out rider, it is something that I certainly need to work on but I do feel that the amount of "knee-on" my new instructor is asking for far outweighs being just enough to sort out my toes.

what happens if you think of swizzling from the hip and re-angling your knee. So rather than gripping you are re-positioning? Does that look to your trainer as if you are doing what they are asking you to do (maybe they are wording their instructions badly)

 

[Throw_away]

what happens if you think of swizzling from the hip and re-angling your knee. So rather than gripping you are re-positioning? Does that look to your trainer as if you are doing what they are asking you to do (maybe they are wording their instructions badly)

Hmmm certainly worth a go! I do keep wondering if it is just a miscommunication issue, but the other day when I was literally straining my body to keep my upper leg on felt absolutely awful and he said it was perfect and that I should be feeling like that, so it's all a bit "?!" for me at the moment haha

 

[Reacher]

This sounds very much like what he is trying to get at! He basically said that the aim is that I'll eventually not need stirrups at all because none of my weight will be in my lower leg, it'll all be coming from my thigh. But this still feels so wrong?

I did ask for clarification re the gripping and he was adamant that, yes, I should be really holding on tight using my thigh muscles and should be keeping my knee in constant contact with the saddle, which to me means gripping which = bad.

Sylvia Loch - “Classical Seat - a guide for the everyday rider “ says on page 45
“ Provided that the seat is correct, and the thigh allowed to settle as deeply downwards as comfortably possible , the entire contact area of these surfaces will become adhesive. There is no need to set up a vice like grip with the thigh. The sheer weight of the thigh bone , unencumbered to the inside by fat or muscle will result in an extremely close contact with the saddle......There will be no need to grip and the rider should not tire , for the muscles are being required to do little”

I’d love to know where he got the gripping thing from.

ETA I have found it quite confusing / frustrating being told different riding methods by previous RIs and by classical . I whinged enough about it in a different thread! ?

 

[southerncomfort]

I used to have lessons with a Mary Wanless instructor who told me to grip hard with my knees to improve stability.

In actual fact, it made my lower legs stick outwards (and I had bruised knees!)

 

[milliepops]

I would say that when I walk my toes are pretty straight forward. However when I sit on a horse, if I relax, my thigh conformation causes my leg to roll outwards from the hip so my knees end up pointing away from the saddle and my toes stick out. It takes tension in my hip joints to keep everything pointing forward.

I am sort of the same. i walk with toes forward, toes sit forward on a horse naturally but i also have loose hips and knees and tend towards them being a bit baggy in the saddle.
Andy Thomas was a pretty good fix to help me feel like i was "narrower" on the horse without making me tighten my legs.

 

[Throw_away]

Sylvia Loch - “Classical Seat - a guide for the everyday rider “ says on page 45
“ Provided that the seat is correct, and the thigh allowed to settle as deeply downwards as comfortably possible , the entire contact area of these surfaces will become adhesive. There is no need to set up a vice like grip with the thigh. The sheer weight of the thigh bone , unencumbered to the inside by fat or muscle will result in an extremely close contact with the saddle......There will be no need to grip and the rider should not tire , for the muscles are being required to do little”

I’d love to know where he got the gripping thing from.

Eurgh, it truly feels as though this is what he's getting at but asking it all wrong. He's asking me to very tightly engage my muscles, so that they burn and ache. I tried relaxing my thigh and keeping the contact and he said "your knees are not on enough".

 

[Throw_away]

I used to have lessons with a Mary Wanless instructor who told me to grip hard with my knees to improve stability.

In actual fact, it made my lower legs stick outwards (and I had bruised knees!)

This is happening to me, too! I'm losing my lower leg control, which I have spent years getting right.

 

[Shilasdair]

Eurgh, it truly feels as though this is what he's getting at but asking it all wrong. He's asking me to very tightly engage my muscles, so that they burn and ache. I tried relaxing my thigh and keeping the contact and he said "your knees are not on enough".

Bin him.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I used to have lessons with a Mary Wanless instructor who told me to grip hard with my knees to improve stability.

In actual fact, it made my lower legs stick outwards (and I had bruised knees!)

the whole Mary Wanless thing had me scratching my head and wondering what the hell they were talking about tbh.

 

[Reacher]

I am sort of the same. i walk with toes forward, toes sit forward on a horse naturally but i also have loose hips and knees and tend towards them being a bit baggy in the saddle.
Andy Thomas was a pretty good fix to help me feel like i was "narrower" on the horse without making me tighten my legs.

I need him to do the opposite to me (narrow hips, left foot turns out)

 

[milliepops]

Bin him.

i agree, because even if he's trying to get you to do the right things, which is still in question i think, you have to be able to understand what an instructor really wants you to do. and it doesn't sound like this chap is great at communicating.

 

[Throw_away]

the whole Mary Wanless thing had me scratching my head and wondering what the hell they were talking about tbh.

Glad it's not just me!

 

[little_critter]

Sylvia Loch - “Classical Seat - a guide for the everyday rider “ says on page 45
“ Provided that the seat is correct, and the thigh allowed to settle as deeply downwards as comfortably possible , the entire contact area of these surfaces will become adhesive. There is no need to set up a vice like grip with the thigh. The sheer weight of the thigh bone , unencumbered to the inside by fat or muscle will result in an extremely close contact with the saddle......There will be no need to grip and the rider should not tire , for the muscles are being required to do little”

I’d love to know where he got the gripping thing from.

ETA I have found it quite confusing / frustrating being told different riding methods by previous RIs and by classical . I whinged enough about it in a different thread! ?

But that's not how it is for me. If I don't positively put my knees on the saddle (and I have to use muscle tone to do that) my legs flop outwards. There is certainly no naturally occurring extremely close contact.

 

[little_critter]

Glad it's not just me!

I went to a Mary Wanless lesson years ago. I tend to ride with a too arched back so I think they were trying to undo that by getting me to hunch / foetal position the other way. They kept asking me to round more...more...more until I pointed out I couldn't see where I was going!

 

[Throw_away]

I went to a Mary Wanless lesson years ago. I tend to ride with a too arched back so I think they were trying to undo that by getting me to hunch / foetal position the other way. They kept asking me to round more...more...more until I pointed out I couldn't see where I was going!

????

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Just a thought but are you sure he's not just correcting a fault by exagerating the opposite of that fault? My RI sometimes has me fully release the left rein because I tend to fix it. But she does not want me to ride with a loose left rein - just needs me to get out of the habit of fixing it.

 

[Throw_away]

Just a thought but are you sure he's not just correcting a fault by exagerating the opposite of that fault? My RI sometimes has me fully release the left rein because I tend to fix it. But she does not want me to ride with a loose left rein - just needs me to get out of the habit of fixing it.

Hmm that's not the impression I'm getting, but it could be that. I am wondering how much of my confusion stems from a miscommunication, so my options at this point are:

1) Have one more lesson and put all my cards on the table about my reservations and see his response.

2) Sack him off now.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Well I'd probably sack him off anyway as that degree of miscommunication does not bode well!

 

[Goldenstar]

Your knee helps absorbs the movement of the horse as well as your ankles as soon as you grip with the knee and thigh you prevent this .
You can of course use the thigh in the half halt and down ward transitions but you ought not be holding on with it .
A rider needs a straight back and many people naturally arch the back ( I do if left to my devices ) you need to straight the back of the back by using the core muscles in your tummy .
I wonder if the trainer was using overcorrection it was very popular when I was training but I don’t think it helps when improving the riders position you are in balance or not in balance over correction IMO makes it hard for the rider to find that correct easy balance .

 

[Leandy]

Hmm that's not the impression I'm getting, but it could be that. I am wondering how much of my confusion stems from a miscommunication, so my options at this point are:

1) Have one more lesson and put all my cards on the table about my reservations and see his response.

2) Sack him off now.

Well I would do (1). Presumably you chose this instructor for good reasons originally? If your original reasons were sound then it is certainly worth the discussion. The relationship with your instructor should be a two process. He needs feedback also to be effective. Have a conversation and then see how you feel but you do need to have faith in the instructor generally or it is not going to work longer term.

 

[Throw_away]

Well I'd probably sack him off anyway as that degree of miscommunication does not bode well!

A good point!

 

[Throw_away]

Your knee helps absorbs the movement of the horse as well as your ankles as soon as you grip with the knee and thigh you prevent this .
You can of course use the thigh in the half halt and down ward transitions but you ought not be holding on with it .
A rider needs a straight back and many people naturally arch the back ( I do if left to my devices ) you need to straight the back of the back by using the core muscles in your tummy .
I wonder if the trainer was using overcorrection it was very popular when I was training but I don’t think it helps when improving the riders position you are in balance or not in balance over correction IMO makes it hard for the rider to find that correct easy balance .

Yeah I certainly do not feel balanced when I'm doing what he is asking of me, and yet this is when I'm receiving the most praise.

It all feels very backwards!

 

[Throw_away]

Well I would do (1). Presumably you chose this instructor for good reasons originally? If your original reasons were sound then it is certainly worth the discussion. The relationship with your instructor should be a two process. He needs feedback also to be effective. Have a conversation and then see how you feel but you do need to have faith in the instructor generally or it is not going to work longer term.

Unfortunately I can't go into detail about the circumstances surrounding how I have ended up with this instructor without potentially revealing my identity to him (if he is on this forum). The last thing I'd want to do is upset him or cause offence, which is why I'm being a bit secretive!

 

[Ratface]

Sylvia Loch - “Classical Seat - a guide for the everyday rider “ says on page 45
“ Provided that the seat is correct, and the thigh allowed to settle as deeply downwards as comfortably possible , the entire contact area of these surfaces will become adhesive. There is no need to set up a vice like grip with the thigh. The sheer weight of the thigh bone , unencumbered to the inside by fat or muscle will result in an extremely close contact with the saddle......There will be no need to grip and the rider should not tire , for the muscles are being required to do little”

I’d love to know where he got the gripping thing from.

ETA I have found it quite confusing / frustrating being told different riding methods by previous RIs and by classical . I whinged enough about it in a different thread! ?

Aha! The Sainted Lady Sylvia Loch! Brilliant teacher, in my very humble opinion.
I have read almost all her books and believe that both my horses and I have benefited greatly from her teaching.
I think relaxed balance, breathing and "feel" is vital to enable riding in harmony with your horse.
I don't think gripping with any part of the body is particularly helpful in any circumstances- although I have gripped neckstraps on some extravagantly moving horses . . .!

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s hard to find good position training now, that’s my observation .
I was trained to train position when my understanding of training horses was still in its infancy I could improve a rider and it was something I enjoyed training because it makes such a difference to people enjoyment .
My guts tell me that this trainer is probably not going to get you where you want to go perhaps give it another go if you fancy it .
I have racked my brain to think of what he was trying to get at , was he trying to get you to lift your seat bones slightly because squeezing the thigh would do that I confess am very curious to know what he was after .

 

[Trouper]

I think @Cortez on here knows a lot about classical riding (if I have read some of her posts correctly) so she may have some advice.

I did have lessons once where we always started with the horse stationary, feet out of stirrups and had to lift both legs fully away from the saddle, then move them back and then bring them slowly forward into the horses body so that we were "enfolding" the horse between our legs - not just gripping. Difficult to explain on paper!!!

 

[milliepops]

i had the legs away and then folded back knee-first onto the horse too, at a BHS school. even something as simple as that doesn't work for all people, that puts my hip abductors into spasm even though i am very capable of putting them in that position myself, shoving them like that causes immense pain!

 

[eahotson]

I had thought it could be this, until our last session where I basically had to tense and heave my body harder than ever to keep my upper leg as tight as he wanted it to be.

It was absolute agony to keep my leg as tight against the saddle as he wanted and it left my lower leg completely uncontrolled, and his response was "that's great!"

Coincidentally, when I cheekily switched to my usual approach he was full of praise and told me I'd cracked it - until I told him that I'd just been riding the way I used to ride and suddenly it was "ah, well it's no good you switching back to your old technique"

Weird.