Conflicting tuition advice

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

what happens if you think of swizzling from the hip and re-angling your knee. So rather than gripping you are re-positioning? Does that look to your trainer as if you are doing what they are asking you to do (maybe they are wording their instructions badly)

It does sound to me like poor communication/misunderstanding, rather than wanting you to ride incorrectly but there is obviously something going wrong, maybe in the translation of what he wants into actual words.

 

[mariew]

Constantly gripping with your thighs blocks the horses ability to move forwards. I am another who has had classical lessons but never been told this either. I'd ditch the trainer.

 

[ponynutz]

Constantly gripping with your thighs blocks the horses ability to move forwards.

Again had classical lessons but with a focus on flat/beginnings of dressage recently and was taught this ^. In fact gripping with my thighs was my worst habit and my instructor made me ride with a folded tea towel between pony and my thighs until I stopped doing it.

Seems odd from trainer. Maybe ask why they want you to do that and see what the explanation is? But I can't personally think of any reason why shoulder movement would want to be blocked (even for collected gaits).

 

[Flamenco]

Just a thought if you ride another horse do you still have the knee/ leg issue?

I had classical dressage lessons and read most of Sylvia Lochs books, so I knew what I should be doing but found it almost impossible to sit "correctly" turned out the stirrup bars on my saddle were too far forwards causing my leg to slide forward and pushing me into a chair seat. Realised after a friend asked me to school their horse and my issues dissapeared!

Definitely no instruction to grip here either. I found once I was sitting in balance my legs sorted themselves out. I found the Sylvia Loch books invaluable in getting started. An instructor with an interest in biomechanics helped too.

 

[Throw_away]

Just a thought if you ride another horse do you still have the knee/ leg issue?

I had classical dressage lessons and read most of Sylvia Lochs books, so I knew what I should be doing but found it almost impossible to sit "correctly" turned out the stirrup bars on my saddle were too far forwards causing my leg to slide forward and pushing me into a chair seat. Realised after a friend asked me to school their horse and my issues dissapeared!

Definitely no instruction to grip here either. I found once I was sitting in balance my legs sorted themselves out. I found the Sylvia Loch books invaluable in getting started. An instructor with an interest in biomechanics helped too.

I've not been told I have an issue with my knees before, at least not since I first started riding and was a complete beginner so gripped with my knees. The only things my previous instructors have had to work on with me is lengthening my leg and making sure I keep my stirrups in canter, in my new lessons I'm losing them in trot!

I'm aware that I ride with my toes out but have never been told from my previous instructors that this was causing an issue with my leg, it's just something I know is incorrect and I'd personally like to improve on.

 

[Lois Lame]

He basically said that the aim is that I'll eventually not need stirrups at all because none of my weight will be in my lower leg, it'll all be coming from my thigh. But this still feels so wrong?

I did ask for clarification re the gripping and he was adamant that, yes, I should be really holding on tight using my thigh muscles and should be keeping my knee in constant contact with the saddle, which to me means gripping which = bad.

Keeping knees and thighs close to the saddle does not mean gripping with them, it just means keeping them close, in contact. The thighs are part of the seat, they take some of our weight.

Maybe the instructor wants you desperately to get that contact that he says, or seems to say, grip.

And he is correct that stirrups do not keep us balanced. They simply hold the weight of our legs and make us more comfortable. If stirrups were the reason we stay in place, we'd be in trouble. It would mean we had no balance at all. Zero.

 

[Lois Lame]

Well I would do (1). Presumably you chose this instructor for good reasons originally? If your original reasons were sound then it is certainly worth the discussion. The relationship with your instructor should be a two process. He needs feedback also to be effective. Have a conversation and then see how you feel but you do need to have faith in the instructor generally or it is not going to work longer term.

I would too. For the reasons you mentioned. Get to the bottom of the puzzle so that you can decide if he is the right instructor or not.

 

[Lois Lame]

I've not been told I have an issue with my knees before, at least not since I first started riding and was a complete beginner so gripped with my knees. The only things my previous instructors have had to work on with me is lengthening my leg and making sure I keep my stirrups in canter, in my new lessons I'm losing them in trot!

I'm aware that I ride with my toes out but have never been told from my previous instructors that this was causing an issue with my leg, it's just something I know is incorrect and I'd personally like to improve on.

I suspect that no one has ever mentioned it because... well I don't know why, but perhaps they didn't know how to fix it.

I was very much a knee and toes out rider. It's taken me a long time to improve that look and I'm not sure if I did it correctly or not. They might still turn out - I'd have to catch myself unawares to really know.

 

[Cragrat]

Coincidentally, when I cheekily switched to my usual approach he was full of praise and told me I'd cracked it - until I told him that I'd just been riding the way I used to ride and suddenly it was "ah, well it's no good you switching back to your old technique"

This is thie bit that rings alarm bells for me. It really makes no sense, unless he is just full of ***** and doesn't actually know what he is trying to achieve.

 

[oldie48]

Sticking my neck out here but if a trainer asked me to ride in a way which I found impossible to hold, I'd ditch them pdq. I think some trainers make the whole business of riding a horse far too complicated and for most of us (OP you may be different) they focus on the wrong thing and while we chase the holy grail of the perfect position, we keep coming back with a wad of cash. All the best trainers I've had, have focused on helping me get my horse going well, once the horse is going nicely suddenly it's so much easier to sit in a pretty position. Anyone who says you need the perfect position to get the horse going well, hasn't watched para riders or the vast majority of eventers (puts tin hat on here). I've been through the Wanless, Loch and Swift stage, it didn't improve me, just made me feel pretty useless. I remember that Wanless used to do a critique of a picture sent in by a reader to one of the Horse mags. Her comments were probably "correct" but to my mind completely useless in helping anyone to improve. "Move the shoulder back by half an inch" really!!! FWIW I try very hard not to "grip with my knee" it makes me bounce around and i'm only doing it to try to keep my balance and no I wouldn't ride with a tight thigh but it can be useful with some horses in preparation for a downward transition. i can't help thinking that if it feels wrong, it probably is.

 

[milliepops]

Anyone who says you need the perfect position to get the horse going well, hasn't watched para riders

THIS!!!

Very much a chicken and egg thing, the thing about being able to sit perfectly vs the horse going in a really lovely way. if your horse is pushing or pulling you about then the average rider will find it very hard to correct themselves according to a classical ideal of riding 100% of the time. improving the horse's way of going makes it a lot easier to then improve yourself in a corresponding way. And as we are all imperfect biological specimens sitting on more imperfect specimens there is always going to be some variation from the 100% ideal anyway IMO.

i love those positional lightbulb moments but i don't think it's unreasonable to accept that position is a WIP for all mere mortals and will be throughout a riding career. being balanced and effective is at the foundation of it, for me, because without those elements you can't improve your horse so you can't create the environment to improve yourself. (unless you only ride wonderful schoolmasters )

 

[MotherOfChickens]

Is had to be said that certain classical riders mentioned on this thread only ride made horses not made by themselves.

 

[Throw_away]

This is thie bit that rings alarm bells for me. It really makes no sense, unless he is just full of ***** and doesn't actually know what he is trying to achieve.

I feel the same, he essentially said I'd done it right until he realised I hadn't done it right with his technique ?

 

[Throw_away]

Sticking my neck out here but if a trainer asked me to ride in a way which I found impossible to hold, I'd ditch them pdq. I think some trainers make the whole business of riding a horse far too complicated and for most of us (OP you may be different) they focus on the wrong thing and while we chase the holy grail of the perfect position, we keep coming back with a wad of cash. All the best trainers I've had, have focused on helping me get my horse going well, once the horse is going nicely suddenly it's so much easier to sit in a pretty position. Anyone who says you need the perfect position to get the horse going well, hasn't watched para riders or the vast majority of eventers (puts tin hat on here). I've been through the Wanless, Loch and Swift stage, it didn't improve me, just made me feel pretty useless. I remember that Wanless used to do a critique of a picture sent in by a reader to one of the Horse mags. Her comments were probably "correct" but to my mind completely useless in helping anyone to improve. "Move the shoulder back by half an inch" really!!! FWIW I try very hard not to "grip with my knee" it makes me bounce around and i'm only doing it to try to keep my balance and no I wouldn't ride with a tight thigh but it can be useful with some horses in preparation for a downward transition. i can't help thinking that if it feels wrong, it probably is.

I think I am probably going to move on tbh, I'm giving it a few more goes and just making sure it's not a communication issue before I cut ties. Sadly I suspect that it's more than that.

 

[teapot]

THIS!!!

Very much a chicken and egg thing, the thing about being able to sit perfectly vs the horse going in a really lovely way. if your horse is pushing or pulling you about then the average rider will find it very hard to correct themselves according to a classical ideal of riding 100% of the time. improving the horse's way of going makes it a lot easier to then improve yourself in a corresponding way. And as we are all imperfect biological specimens sitting on more imperfect specimens there is always going to be some variation from the 100% ideal anyway IMO.

i love those positional lightbulb moments but i don't think it's unreasonable to accept that position is a WIP for all mere mortals and will be throughout a riding career. being balanced and effective is at the foundation of it, for me, because without those elements you can't improve your horse so you can't create the environment to improve yourself. (unless you only ride wonderful schoolmasters )

I've seen coaches leave jobs because of this very thing. Fed up of seeing clients struggling to improve because of what was underneath them. It's a LOT easier to look good once a horse is working well imho.

 

[littleshetland]

Have you seen this instructor ride? How does he look on a horse, and how does the horse look?

 

[oldie48]

Honestly my last word on the subject but I had some lessons with a rider who focused on position and classical riding. She trained with a very well known classical trainer, whom I'm sure was an excellent rider. The horse I had at that time was tricky but she kept telling me that if I rode as she told me, he'd go well and it was my position that was the problem. It was very depressing and I felt completely useless. I eventually persuaded her to get on the horse to show me and she couldn't even get him to canter. I ditched her!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I think with classical trainers that it can be quite difficult to separate out those who walk the walk, from those that just talk—or those that just write.
I’ve met some that are beautiful riders and great teachers, some who are beautiful riders but cant teach more advanced riders and some who ride nicely on their beautiful horses that others train. Some of the latter can behave quite awfully to fellow human beings, feel quite hard done by life and at least one has recently gone batshit crazy.

to be honest, once I quit that whole scene I immediately felt much happier And stopped beating myself up. That’s not to say that if there was a good classical instructor nearby I wouldn’t use them, I would, just that they are hard to come by.

 

[Throw_away]

Have you seen this instructor ride? How does he look on a horse, and how does the horse look?

This was another niggle I had, I've seen him ride and he looks very much like a beginner, I've never seen an instructor ride like him let's put it that way.

 

[littleshetland]

This was another niggle I had, I've seen him ride and he looks very much like a beginner, I've never seen an instructor ride like him let's put it that way.

It really does sound like you need to give him the sack!

 

[Cragrat]

This was another niggle I had, I've seen him ride and he looks very much like a beginner, I've never seen an instructor ride like him let's put it that way.

I am now really curious WHAT it was that made you go to him inthe first place!

 

[Aperchristmas]

That does sound like the Mary Wanless approach. Some parts are very useful - the repositioning of the leg before you get moving so that your hips aren't rotating outwards, plus the approach is great for engaging the core - but the amount of gripping at the knee is really strange and doesn't work for me longer term. I have a feeling that it works very well for some people anatomically, but not for most.

 

[Lois Lame]

Quite some years ago now I went and watched a 'classical' trainer/instructor who claimed she'd had lessons from none other than Nuno Oliviera (she probably had, but that doesn't mean much). She was a disaster. For all I know she packed her bags and set off to the UK. I wonder if it's her. It probably isn't. But if it is...

 

[planete]

Quite some years ago now I went and watched a 'classical' trainer/instructor who claimed she'd had lessons from none other than Nuno Oliviera (she probably had, but that doesn't mean much). She was a disaster. For all I know she packed her bags and set off to the UK. I wonder if it's her. It probably isn't. But if it is...

Many people claim to have trained with Oliveira. Very few did more than spend a short time working with him.

 

[little_critter]

This was another niggle I had, I've seen him ride and he looks very much like a beginner, I've never seen an instructor ride like him let's put it that way.

If you don’t admire the way he rides then leave, I’d say.

 

[YorkshireLady]

First post to me sounds much nearer to a Ride with Your Mind approach than anything classical...

 

[LegOn]

This was another niggle I had, I've seen him ride and he looks very much like a beginner, I've never seen an instructor ride like him let's put it that way.

Also how is your horses responding? Just out of interest - I've had lessons where the thing they are telling me might be correct but if it isnt improving not only me, but is of benefit to my horse - then I'd definitely be walking away!

Maybe that could be your excuse - sorry my horse just isnt responding to this type of training and I dont want to end up in a worse position!

I definitely prefer getting lessons from instructors that I admire their own riding or achievements, gives you something to aspire to but I've also learned, good riders dont always make good instructors!!!!