Council have just been round - Stable tax

[DabDab]

You have to wonder at a country that taxes a muckheap!

That's what I really can't fathom - if you pile poo in the corner of fields would it be taxable? What about if you have a muck trailer? If you put bits if all weather in gateways or on a track system would they be taxable?

And would you automatically be granted change of use to business premises, when they are taxing items that have 'no business use' stipulated in the planning consent? It sounds like they are charging business rates for facilities that you are not allowed to use for business?

 

[Dynamo]

That's what I thought.

Popsdosh, can you help with this question? So the rates are Non-domestic, which includes but is not limited to business use. The rate relief is available to small businesses. So if the rates are for non-domestic premises, but there is no business in operation, how does the small business relief apply? If I get rated for non-domestic rates on my stables and arena and I don't run any kind of business, do I have to pay the full lot?

 

[Xmasha]

Popsdosh, can you help with this question? So the rates are Non-domestic, which includes but is not limited to business use. The rate relief is available to small businesses. So if the rates are for non-domestic premises, but there is no business in operation, how does the small business relief apply? If I get rated for non-domestic rates on my stables and arena and I don't run any kind of business, do I have to pay the full lot?

https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-business-rate-relief/small-business-rate-relief

hopefully this explains it?

 

[Dynamo]

And would you automatically be granted change of use to business premises, when they are taxing items that have 'no business use' stipulated in the planning consent? It sounds like they are charging business rates for facilities that you are not allowed to use for business?

That is where the change in definition of the rates is important. They are not business rates any longer; they are non-domestic, which includes businesses if business use has been granted, and also includes anything else that is neither business nor domestic, i.e. all sorts of leisure use of one's own land and buildings. It's not that horse owners are being specifically targeted, but that stables, arenas, jumping courses, fall in to that non-domestic, non-business category, and therefore represent an easily identifiable additional income stream for cash-strapped councils. It's taxation by stealth. The change in definition probably didn't cause much alarm at the time; everyone probably thought it was just another name for business rates, but in fact it opened up a whole new source of taxation for local authorities; they knew where the residential rates/council tax applied, they knew where business rates applied, and now there is a whole untapped source...

 

[Dynamo]

https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-business-rate-relief/small-business-rate-relief

hopefully this explains it?

Not really. It talks about business rate relief and all the language implies that a small business has to be in operation, but it doesn't actually state whether the relief would still apply if you are using non-domestic premises purely for your own use.

 

[DabDab]

Popsdosh, can you help with this question? So the rates are Non-domestic, which includes but is not limited to business use. The rate relief is available to small businesses. So if the rates are for non-domestic premises, but there is no business in operation, how does the small business relief apply? If I get rated for non-domestic rates on my stables and arena and I don't run any kind of business, do I have to pay the full lot?

You put it much better than me....and as I'm not allowed to use either my school or my stables for business I couldn't even pretend to be running a business

 

[Xmasha]

Not really. It talks about business rate relief and all the language implies that a small business has to be in operation, but it doesn't actually state whether the relief would still apply if you are using non-domestic premises purely for your own use.

You don't have to be a business to apply for it. We received it for the yard we owned previously, again no business just a private yard.

My concern going forward, is that they are using this as a guise to get people to accept they have to pay, thinking they can apply and get the rate relief, but then in the near future make changes to eligibility. Or, given the recent revaluations, keep pushing the valuations up until you are over the £12k barrier.

 

[DabDab]

That is where the change in definition of the rates is important. They are not business rates any longer; they are non-domestic, which includes businesses if business use has been granted, and also includes anything else that is neither business nor domestic, i.e. all sorts of leisure use of one's own land and buildings. It's not that horse owners are being specifically targeted, but that stables, arenas, jumping courses, fall in to that non-domestic, non-business category, and therefore represent an easily identifiable additional income stream for cash-strapped councils. It's taxation by stealth. The change in definition probably didn't cause much alarm at the time; everyone probably thought it was just another name for business rates, but in fact it opened up a whole new source of taxation for local authorities; they knew where the residential rates/council tax applied, they knew where business rates applied, and now there is a whole untapped source...

Yes, that's what I've gathered....sorry, didn't phrase it very well. So there is no recourse for people who have a personal yard unless the planning authorities allow business use on previously exempt facilities and we all pretend to be running businesses.

 

[Xmasha]

You put it much better than me....and as I'm not allowed to use either my school or my stables for business I couldn't even pretend to be running a business

All my consents for arena etc are for personal use only.

 

[Xmasha]

Yes, that's what I've gathered....sorry, didn't phrase it very well. So there is no recourse for people who have a personal yard unless the planning authorities allow business use on previously exempt facilities and we all pretend to be running businesses.

Not at the minute, you don't have to be a business to claim the relief

 

[Dynamo]

Not at the minute, you don't have to be a business to claim the relief

Great. Thanks for that. I bet that loophole gets closed very soon.

 

[DabDab]

Great. Thanks for that. I bet that loophole gets closed very soon.

Thanks Asha, will look into it.
Yes I agree, it seems like a rather contrived slippery slope - get everyone on the books and then find a way to charge them

 

[Goldenstar]

Thanks Asha, will look into it.
Yes I agree, it seems like a rather contrived slippery slope - get everyone on the books and then find a way to charge them

Yup that's what will happen.

 

[popsdosh]

Thanks Asha, will look into it.
Yes I agree, it seems like a rather contrived slippery slope - get everyone on the books and then find a way to charge them

Its nothing like that ! the criteria hasnt changed at all nobody is being assessed to be liable who wouldnt have been in the past they are just catching up. When you consider the last revaluation was in 2010 the increases on the whole are not that out of the way. At the end of the day you most likely pay no more as like the council tax it is worked out at by dividing the need (cost of running services )by the units paying it in this case total of all valuations and then set the poundage rate. Somebody has to pay for these services and im sure most people with horses are more able than others in society. If it was not business rates it would alter your council tax banding as the facilities would be assessed as part of your property value. No relief from those so which is the better option.

 

[VioletFlower]

This is a very interesting thread and thank you to all the knowledgeable people who have responded. I may find myself in a similar position to the op.

A question though...
What council 'services' are the non-domestic rates paying for? That are not already covered by our council tax and other taxes?

 

[popsdosh]

This is a very interesting thread and thank you to all the knowledgeable people who have responded. I may find myself in a similar position to the op.

A question though...
What council 'services' are the non-domestic rates paying for? That are not already covered by our council tax and other taxes?

They are contributing to the whole pot ,without them others would be a lot higher.

 

[Xmasha]

Thought id let you all know the latest update !

The current valuation is £5,092

Stables = £1240
Arena = £1200
Feedroom = £95
Equipment store = £2,295
Tack room = £262

The proposed increase for 2017 will take it to £6100, I'm not sure what his means in terms what we have to pay yet, but at least they didnt charge for the muckheap !

I had a quick look at others in my area, and our local venue ( Southview) will be going from £36k to £50k, how these centres will make things pay going forward I do not know, (especially given the small turnout this weekend at a premier show) I believe the BSJA are attempting to lobby the government about these revaluations.

I would imagine livery bills will be going up across the country, and anyone thinking of investing in new facilities, get advice first. I wish I had !

 

[PinkSwoon]

Going by this - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...963/Stables-business-rates-or-council-tax.pdf

Am I right in thinking that if the stables are within the curtilage of the house then the stables are included with the council tax on the house?

So if you bought land, built an american barn type set up with self contained accommodation above for example then you'd only be charged in relation to the value of the property & not additionally? What an absolute backwards way of thinking.

I can remember seeing a programme when I was younger & a woman who lived in the back end of nowhere in some Nordic country rescued a horse & it ended up living in her house due to the snow. Maybe we should all do that.

Also why no dog tax? I wish there was. Dogs cost the council a fortune.

 

[Cecile]

Thought id let you all know the latest update !

The current valuation is £5,092

Stables = £1240
Arena = £1200
Feedroom = £95
Equipment store = £2,295
Tack room = £262

The proposed increase for 2017 will take it to £6100, I'm not sure what his means in terms what we have to pay yet, but at least they didnt charge for the muckheap !

I had a quick look at others in my area, and our local venue ( Southview) will be going from £36k to £50k, how these centres will make things pay going forward I do not know, (especially given the small turnout this weekend at a premier show) I believe the BSJA are attempting to lobby the government about these revaluations.

I would imagine livery bills will be going up across the country, and anyone thinking of investing in new facilities, get advice first. I wish I had !

I have been thinking about the visit you had. If you had known what they were looking for prior to their arrival what changes would you have made if any?
I thought about the dung heap when you first wrote and as I have a grab lorry every so often I would of arranged for it to arrive
My feed room is also tack room and coffee shop for passing farrier, vet and visitors, so multi purpose
My barn I use for equipment storage but there are generally sheep hurdles up just in case I need to bring in a limping sheep or whatever

 

[ester]

Nice round numbers they like then!
Why did they include the arena I thought you said it was in the curtilage?

 

[popsdosh]

Nice round numbers they like then!
Why did they include the arena I thought you said it was in the curtilage?

By putting up a fence you are in effect moving your curtilage as it is indeed a flexible boundary thats why a few riders around here have no arena fence. Also looking from an earlier photo It looked like the arena was attached to the stables. Dont see the point about round numbers as on the arena I really dont see how you can multiply 800 x£1.50 and get anything different.

 

[Gift Horse]

This made me laugh. ^
I converted a disused building to my first home when I was 21 (I knew how to party back then) our house warming was a heavy night, with lots of 20 somethings crashed out in the early hours. At 9am the following morning the woman from the domestic rates (council tax) rocked up to value. Bleary-eyed I let her in and she had to measure up stepping over sleeping bodies!

 

[Gift Horse]

I have found this thread really useful thanks for starting it OP. My OH has been trying to explain this to me. Popsdosh explains it really well.

 

[ester]

By putting up a fence you are in effect moving your curtilage as it is indeed a flexible boundary thats why a few riders around here have no arena fence. Also looking from an earlier photo It looked like the arena was attached to the stables. Dont see the point about round numbers as on the arena I really dont see how you can multiply 800 x£1.50 and get anything different.

Makes sense, thanks I am slightly extrapolating to what we have at home.

the arena was a lovely round number, the 2295 equipment store made me chuckle, it seemed more like a figure that you'd see on a second hand car. I do understand where it comes from but

 

[Xmasha]

Nice round numbers they like then!
Why did they include the arena I thought you said it was in the curtilage?

The land where the arena was built was part of the garden, about half of it. However, the valuation officer explained that as we had a fence line on the arena which runs to the concrete yard in front of the stables, this in there opinion defines the garden curtilage

 

[Xmasha]

I have been thinking about the visit you had. If you had known what they were looking for prior to their arrival what changes would you have made if any?
I thought about the dung heap when you first wrote and as I have a grab lorry every so often I would of arranged for it to arrive
My feed room is also tack room and coffee shop for passing farrier, vet and visitors, so multi purpose
My barn I use for equipment storage but there are generally sheep hurdles up just in case I need to bring in a limping sheep or whatever

I honestly wouldn't have done anything differently on the day. In hindsight, what I should have done was apply to extend the garden curtilage before applying for an arena.
As for the stables, I could have put some wooden ones up in the garden, but i love my stables inthe cowshed. It suits us perfectly, we have everything under one roof, the farrier loves coming as he never gets wet ! Plus it was already there, would have been nuts to have left it .

The rates on the barn is one up for debate, as in my mind that's an agricultural store and shouldn't be mentioned.

As the bill currently stands at zero, I will leave the battle for when they decide to move the goal posts, which I have no doubt they will. Otherwise that was a complete waste of tax payers money !

 

[dozzie]

I honestly wouldn't have done anything differently on the day. In hindsight, what I should have done was apply to extend the garden curtilage before applying for an arena.
As for the stables, I could have put some wooden ones up in the garden, but i love my stables inthe cowshed. It suits us perfectly, we have everything under one roof, the farrier loves coming as he never gets wet ! Plus it was already there, would have been nuts to have left it .

The rates on the barn is one up for debate, as in my mind that's an agricultural store and shouldn't be mentioned.

As the bill currently stands at zero, I will leave the battle for when they decide to move the goal posts, which I have no doubt they will. Otherwise that was a complete waste of tax payers money !

Agree. A waste of taxpayers money.

 

[DabDab]

Its nothing like that ! the criteria hasnt changed at all nobody is being assessed to be liable who wouldnt have been in the past they are just catching up. When you consider the last revaluation was in 2010 the increases on the whole are not that out of the way. At the end of the day you most likely pay no more as like the council tax it is worked out at by dividing the need (cost of running services )by the units paying it in this case total of all valuations and then set the poundage rate. Somebody has to pay for these services and im sure most people with horses are more able than others in society. If it was not business rates it would alter your council tax banding as the facilities would be assessed as part of your property value. No relief from those so which is the better option.

Of course it is like that - they wouldn't go to the effort of doing it otherwise. There was a specific reason that they redefined 'business rates' as 'non-domestic rates'. They're not daft, nor fond of undertaking time consuming activities that will bring them no return.

And as for horsey people being able to afford it - I guess you're not familiar with people who have scrimped, saved, worked their knackers off and lived on a shoestring their entire adult life in order to be able to afford a falling down house with a few acres and some basic stables? Or a livery yard owner that works every hour god gives and can only just make ends meet as it is? Do you really think that people like this can afford thousands more a year when they decide to shift the goal posts?

 

[popsdosh]

Nobody has shifted any goal posts. If you think they have your deluded none of the qualifying criteria has changed and indeed there has not been a name change.
Everybody has to some degree a goal in life however if you have stables that may come within the criteria why should you not be charged exactly the same as everybody else. If a livery yard cant make a living they need to either charge more or pack up its very simple. For those up to a reasonable size of course its not an issue as they will not pay anything but that does not preclude them from the assessment process. They are certainly not paying thousands a year extra .
I suppose you would be happy that for every yard owner or livery that dont think they should pay some poor pensioner will have to pay more council tax ,these services dont run on fresh air you know.

 

[DabDab]

I think you may have missed my point, and I think in any case we may have to agree to disagree.

This is not linked to council tax, and I'm really not sure where pensioners come in since the pensioner demographic covers both rich and poor.

And as for goal posts, I said 'when' they move. Because I don't believe councils are going round to private properties assessing taxable value for which most will be exempt because they are bored.