Leo Walker
Well-Known Member
Yet!
Council have just been round - Stable tax
- Thread starter Xmasha
- Start date
Yet!
Amye
Well-Known Member
Very interesting thread! Hope everything works out for you OP.
Can't say I understand all of it but had a little look at the yard where I keep my horse (I don't have anywhere myself) out of curiosity - looks like their value will be going up around 6k which takes them over the 12k threshold! Maybe a lot of liveries will be hiking up their prices if this is a common theme.
Can't say I understand all of it but had a little look at the yard where I keep my horse (I don't have anywhere myself) out of curiosity - looks like their value will be going up around 6k which takes them over the 12k threshold! Maybe a lot of liveries will be hiking up their prices if this is a common theme.
popsdosh
Well-Known Member
Of course council tax comes into it as the local authority has to raise their money from somewhere if not via business rates ( Non domestic) they will need to raise council tax to everybody rich or poor.
Actually they have to assess properties when they become aware of them and if anything the exemption has become more generous this year. Its not councils doing it so their not getting bored.
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DabDab
Ah mud, splendid
Well if you were to take the cynical view - as of three or four years ago councils can now keep half the business rates raised in their area (previously it all went into the national pot, so yes, rather different to council tax), and this change was intended to encourage local councils to encourage businesses into their area, because for the first time the more business rates in their area the more money in their pot. But encouraging new business in a locality is hard, so far easier to wonder around looking for muckheaps to tax.
The laws are old, but exceptionally vague, so previously it was safer to stick to rating actual businesses. Theoretically anything outside the curtalidge could be rated - a bonfire, wood pile, shed, woodland path, area of hardstanding.....
The laws are old, but exceptionally vague, so previously it was safer to stick to rating actual businesses. Theoretically anything outside the curtalidge could be rated - a bonfire, wood pile, shed, woodland path, area of hardstanding.....
ester
Not slacking multitasking
If they aren't doing it for kicks (presumably!) what is the point of them rating something so significantly under the threshold?
Sugar_and_Spice
Well-Known Member
Maybe it's like council tax, where some people are exempt from paying, but that doesn't mean it isn't paid, the government pays it for them. And I expect once they've logged that "something" is there, it's possible to keep an eye on it in the future, to see if it goes over the threshold. Can't keep an eye on something they don't know exists.
SussexbytheXmasTree
Well-Known Member
You live in a beautiful property with lovely equestrian facilities that most people can only ever dream of. It was rightly reviewed as whether it was appropriately valued and the outcome is you have to pay extra is exactly £0. I simply do not see what the problem is.
I'm glad our Government is making sure people are paying the correct amounts in accordance with our laws.
If anything I would be more worried about actual businesses who employ people thereby contributing to the economy being affected negatively by any rise.
I'm glad our Government is making sure people are paying the correct amounts in accordance with our laws.
If anything I would be more worried about actual businesses who employ people thereby contributing to the economy being affected negatively by any rise.
MartinW
New User
Hello, in a similar vein we have a yard on the outskirts of the New Forest. This was derelict when purchased apart from the house in one corner of the yard. Over the past years we have renovated the yard and house. Down the North side of the yard are 3 self contained holiday cottages, on the west side an old barn used as storage and another holiday cottage. On the east side 10 stables. On the east side storage units. Laundry for the holiday cottages and our house. We have 8.9 acres available for turnout. As this is based mainly on a gravel bed the grass burns off in the summer. One paddock is by a stream that is usable in the summer but not the winter. On this we have 5 Shire horses and a Shetland. Mainly we own these horses however a few are friends horses and most are rescue cases. We take no money for the Shires using the lands or stables. Recently we have a visit from the valuation office who claimed to looking to value the holiday cottages, all well and good as we agree that these are a business however when she turned up we asked if she would like to look at the cottages and were surprised when she said that they were of little interest and she had come to see the stables. We showed her around and explained about the Shires. A few weeks later we received an estimate and they want to value the stables where we keep our own horses and the 'rescue' shires and shetland for £3750.00. This amount complete with the holiday cottages takes the total value just over the small business claim limit to £13250.00 so we will get no relief.
Can the VOA rate a private yard with boxes for our own use!!
This seems grossly unfair and I am now of a mind to take out the internal walls on the 4 stables not used to reduce the amount to below the limit which seems ridiculous that we have to destroy a beautiful old yard simply because of a valuation by the VOA.
The valuation also had numerous other errors which we will appeal against.
It seems to me that they were desperate to value the yard over the small business rates relief amount so that we will have to pay.
Does anyone have any ideas?
Many thanks for any help
Best regards
MartinW
Can the VOA rate a private yard with boxes for our own use!!
This seems grossly unfair and I am now of a mind to take out the internal walls on the 4 stables not used to reduce the amount to below the limit which seems ridiculous that we have to destroy a beautiful old yard simply because of a valuation by the VOA.
The valuation also had numerous other errors which we will appeal against.
It seems to me that they were desperate to value the yard over the small business rates relief amount so that we will have to pay.
Does anyone have any ideas?
Many thanks for any help
Best regards
MartinW
cobgoblin
Bugrit! Millennium hand and shrimp.
If they are stables for your own use and your house is in the corner of the yard surely you can claim that they are within the domicile of the house... It all sounds a bit dodgy. Might be worth having a word with a solicitor.
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
Buy a plough, use the shires to pull the plough occasionally, horses used for ploughing and pulling are officially agricultural... just for your info
cobgoblin
Bugrit! Millennium hand and shrimp.
Just had a bit of a shufty around and the problem might be that your yard is 'mixed purposes'... In which case the whole yard becomes liable for non domestic rates.
Is there any way that the holiday cottages could be separated off from the rest of the yard and registered as another property in their own right? I may of course, be talking junk but a house down the road from us was recently rebuilt it has a barn in the front garden which is accessed via the main (and only) entrance to the house. The barn is classified as a business building and is registered as being a separate lot to the house even though they were sold together.
MartinW
New User
Many thanks for the ideas. Whats weird is that the barn is zero rated, the tack room is zero rated, the stable kitchen is zero rated and the laundry for the cottages is zero rated. I would have thought that if the loose boxes as they call them are rated then why not the support buildings? The whole curtilage debate is complicated because the yard and yard house are withing the curtilage of an old farm house which is about 100 metres distant but the sub curtilage (if there is such a thing?) of the yard is within the yard house! The yard has never ever been rated before and we have an agricultural holding number for the property. Somewhere I have read that if the horses are used to work the land then there may be exemptions and the shires do work the land. I suppose we could get some goats, put them into the stables and then claim exemption as they are being used to home farm animals but really I find the whole affair strange. I really dont mind paying what is due but why should we pay for private stables that are used for our own horses or horses that otherwise would have a crap existence and for which we receive no income?
MartinW
New User
Thanks for that news, I had heard that horses used to work the land are officially agricultural and ours are used to pull a chain harrow and we have videos of this, we dont have a plough but cant see this being a problem. We also have an agricultural holding number so that would probably help. Just out of interest do you have any links regarding the above as it would be very useful and help our case. Once again many thanks for your comments.
Best regards
Best regards
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
If you are a Gold member of BHS, ring their legal helpline. I got some excellent advice via them when I had a run-in with our local council (not the same problem, so I can't offer specific advice). BHS refer problems to an appropriately experienced solicitor for the best advice, for anything which is not run-of-the-mill.
MartinW
New User
Yes i am a gold member of the BHS and thanks for the info, most useful and I will give them a ring and post the results so that maybe it can help someone else. As Ive said we really have no problem paying whats correct and right but am reluctant to take on face value what the valuation officer says and especially so when I feel the initial contact was under possible false pretences.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
We found that the best way to find out the truth of what they actually wanted to know was to put in an Information Governance request (Data Protection), they have to give you copies of anything in which your name or address, or other identifiers appear. It took 4 goes before we got everything, so be persistent!
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
Yes any agricultural activity counts
https://www.gov.uk/farm-and-livery-horses
Quote A horse is considered to be an agricultural animal if it is used to farm agricultural land or is farmed for meat or hides.
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sywell
Well-Known Member
I have a letter from the Minister of State Brandon Lewis which says the curtilage of your garden is the boundary fence any house within the curtilage can be considered as open countryside.
Pearlsacarolsinger
Up in the clouds
That doesn't make sense!
Dubsie
Well-Known Member
Hmmnnnn....so if you just harrow in your horse's poo as opposed to picking it up, could you deem your equines as muck-spreaders?
sywell
Well-Known Member
According to the Secretary of State ,in writing,it is the boundary of your garden.
sywell
Well-Known Member
Just to put your mind slightly at ease the box figure is per box not per m2 .I know thats not easily understood from just seeing it . The figures are related to what they feel would be a market rent for the facilities and to be fair most boxes you would expect to rent for well in excess of £375/annum. When you see the total the actual rates you pay are approx half that figure as the current poundage is around 49p However anything under 12000 you should be able to claim relief. It was definitley business rates they were assessing and not a domestic revaluation?
I bet you have been looking for the ones that are not paying ,it can be an eye opener
The planning consent said in the conditions that the stables could not be used for commercial use,so i presume they could not apply rates to the as they do not have a value for renting?
Fragglerock
Well-Known Member
My friend had this - her stables were for private use but she still had someone round to value it and it has a rateable value. I seem to remember the visit was prompted by a planning application she had to put in to rebuild after an arson attack.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Not so horses are unique all other leisure equipment does not attract rates so if you put your speed boat in a shed it’s ok but buildings assiocated with domestic horse care can attract rates .
Widgeon
Well-Known Member
Digging up an old thread here - we're looking at buying a house that has some stables behind it. I've had a look on the government website as an earlier poster detailed in this thread (https://www.gov.uk/correct-your-business-rates), and private yards round the area are coming up with a rateable value of £1500-£8000.
I checked here (https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-business-rate-relief/small-business-rate-relief) and it looks like anything with a value of below £15K is eligible for small business relief. What I don't understand is whether or not you are eligible for this exemption if you are a private home owner rather than the owner of a small business? Can anyone enlighten me?
I checked here (https://www.gov.uk/apply-for-business-rate-relief/small-business-rate-relief) and it looks like anything with a value of below £15K is eligible for small business relief. What I don't understand is whether or not you are eligible for this exemption if you are a private home owner rather than the owner of a small business? Can anyone enlighten me?
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
It's about where the stables are placed. If they are 'within the curtilage' of the domestic property then there are no separate rates for equestrian facilities. The definition of 'within the curtilage' can vary from rating authority to rating authority, but generally, you're ok if they are close and share the same access.
MagicMelon
Well-Known Member
I dont get these "rates", how can they ask money for having a few horses on your own land? Id understand if you were making a business from them (livery yard etc.) but Im guessing your private?
Id be pretty mad and would definately fight it if they said Id have to pay and especially to back date it - how can they do that? Theyd surely have to prove when you brought horses onto the property? Just say you only just put horses there last week? They'd have to prove otherwise?
Id be pretty mad and would definately fight it if they said Id have to pay and especially to back date it - how can they do that? Theyd surely have to prove when you brought horses onto the property? Just say you only just put horses there last week? They'd have to prove otherwise?
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
If there are buildings and they aren't near the house and especially if they have their own entrance, then they constitute a second peppery and rates are due.
There aren't any rates unless there are buildings afaik.
I'm lucky, mine is all right by the house with nothing except paths between buildings/arena/etc.
There aren't any rates unless there are buildings afaik.
I'm lucky, mine is all right by the house with nothing except paths between buildings/arena/etc.
Conrad
New User
Here's our experience in the hope it may help someone.
We're in mid-Devon and got a letter from the Valuation Office (VO) saying they wanted to inspect our stables for Non-Domestic Rates. The stables were built in 2015 and I think they had only just got round to finding us from the planning permission. The stables were not going to be classed as exempt for being within the curtilege of our house (although it sounds like solicitors make a lot of money out of the vague and contentious definition of 'curtilege'). So the totally unexpected prospect of 4 years of backdated rates charges was pretty scarey. The planning consultant we had used told us to point out that our permission specifically forbids any commercial use or letting out therefore the stables must be domestic. This cut no ice with the VO. The time they planned to inspect was no good for us as we work M-F. We suggested a weekend or evening, but they wouldn't agree to this. Instead they offered to do the assessment without visiting (presumably using mapping and our planning application), said this could be less accurate but that we would have a right to appeal (and if we did so they would inspect then). So we agreed to this. The assessment has just come through, and based on £375 per box, £20/sq m for the tack room and £15/sq m for the feed room, its under £3000. We knew there was the possibility of claiming Small Business Rates Relief, but were nervous about this as the rates are called Non-Domestic Rates and the relief is Small Business Rates Relief and we are not allowed to be a business even if we wanted to. Luckily we need not have worried. We filled in the Small Business Rates Relief form and submitted to the council. (The council handles rates billing and relief, the VO only do the valuation that is used to calculate the rates.) And we've just had the rates bill through for the last 4 years, all with a 100% discount (as the valuation is under £12000). Nothing to pay. Phew! I did wonder if we would have to pay and then claim back, but fortunately not. How they can set a valuation, which is supposed to be based on the potential rental income of a non-domestic property, when planning permission specifically forbids renting that property, beats me. I wonder if that has ever been tested in court. Fortunately its turned out to be immaterial for us.
We're in mid-Devon and got a letter from the Valuation Office (VO) saying they wanted to inspect our stables for Non-Domestic Rates. The stables were built in 2015 and I think they had only just got round to finding us from the planning permission. The stables were not going to be classed as exempt for being within the curtilege of our house (although it sounds like solicitors make a lot of money out of the vague and contentious definition of 'curtilege'). So the totally unexpected prospect of 4 years of backdated rates charges was pretty scarey. The planning consultant we had used told us to point out that our permission specifically forbids any commercial use or letting out therefore the stables must be domestic. This cut no ice with the VO. The time they planned to inspect was no good for us as we work M-F. We suggested a weekend or evening, but they wouldn't agree to this. Instead they offered to do the assessment without visiting (presumably using mapping and our planning application), said this could be less accurate but that we would have a right to appeal (and if we did so they would inspect then). So we agreed to this. The assessment has just come through, and based on £375 per box, £20/sq m for the tack room and £15/sq m for the feed room, its under £3000. We knew there was the possibility of claiming Small Business Rates Relief, but were nervous about this as the rates are called Non-Domestic Rates and the relief is Small Business Rates Relief and we are not allowed to be a business even if we wanted to. Luckily we need not have worried. We filled in the Small Business Rates Relief form and submitted to the council. (The council handles rates billing and relief, the VO only do the valuation that is used to calculate the rates.) And we've just had the rates bill through for the last 4 years, all with a 100% discount (as the valuation is under £12000). Nothing to pay. Phew! I did wonder if we would have to pay and then claim back, but fortunately not. How they can set a valuation, which is supposed to be based on the potential rental income of a non-domestic property, when planning permission specifically forbids renting that property, beats me. I wonder if that has ever been tested in court. Fortunately its turned out to be immaterial for us.
Widgeon
Well-Known Member
Thanks for sharing. I do tend to find that whenever I get a glimpse into the inner workings of our local council it is pretty eye opening. Glad this worked out okay for you.