Creating 'flashy' dressage paces in the Medium/Advanced Horse?

[tallyho!]

Can the rider keep the horse soft and fluid from a medium trot to collected/etc? Can they ride from HP to an 8m circle without breaking the rhythm? Can they train the horse to changes legs seamlessly, remaining in the same tempo?

Medium trot is just one movement... A lot of people seem to get hung up on it? If you can do it for an 8, fabulous, well done. And if everything else is above a 7, then wahoo! But if your horse is yakking around with its hindlegs in another hemisphere and everything is a little crooked for a 5/6...

There's a slight trend on this thread to insist on certain stages of training being in place before progressing (to another level etc). But that really isn't the case when starting from step 1 to finishing up wherever you want to be. And it's swings and roundabouts anyway; one week you can have a fantastic rhythm but need a little more softness. Then the next week you have a lot of softness and very supple work, but lacking impulsion.

It's not just about being able to do a HP, therefore you can do a medium test. You can use the SI and travers to improve the HP, which improves the balance and suppleness and reactiveness of the horse and thus improving the rest of the work.

The basics for me are - good contact, off the leg, lateral and longitudinal suppleness. Once you've got those (and really got those), everything else falls into place. If they're not falling into place, then the basics aren't good enough and/or there's a lack of basic understanding on the rider and/or horses part.

This resonates with me, thank you nm.

The horse is half the partnership and as I eluded to earlier, I do feel that if you can both get to this level of harmony then you should get the points from judges.

However... at E/M/AM it's hard to compete against the ones who "can" push the marks with the "right" (read flashy horse) and I think this is what causes most disgruntlement - where your ordinary horse can perform a correct movement i.e. a nice extended trot/hp, the nice wb does it with a flicky thing but does an unbalanced circle and gets more. This is what is most demotivating about marks.

Whats' correct vs what get marks seems errr disunited.

 

[star]

Interesting reading. Maybe I should tell Monty no more PSG though as he can't extend to save his life so we better go back to Prelim! He pushed from behind but his conformation is so bad he is so downhill he cannot open and flick his shoulder. He's never going to get amazing marks at this level. We had scores of over 70% at all previous levels until advanced when our best was around 65%. So far at PSG best is 61.5%. He can do all the movements but he just doesn't move in the way they want to see at this level. Being 18yrs old, half Welsh and half TB and with pretty awful conformation he just does the best he can and I'm using him to give me a wonderful experience of riding at this level which I never ever dreamed he would in my wildest dreams! Hopefully that experience will do me good for the next horse who hopefully might have slightly better conformation and natural paces.

 

[milliepops]

Being 18yrs old, half Welsh and half TB and with pretty awful conformation he just does the best he can and I'm using him to give me a wonderful experience of riding at this level which I never ever dreamed he would in my wildest dreams! Hopefully that experience will do me good for the next horse who hopefully might have slightly better conformation and natural paces.

I love Monty and you're leading the way for a few of us on unlikely dressage steeds, I think - I have exactly the same feeling about my 2 - they're giving me opportunities and teaching me how to ride better... which I hope will give me a leg up when/if I do get a *proper* horse :lol:

I'm not sure that I agree with you that most newly broken ordinary horses will offer lengthened strides when newly sat on. And those that do are more likely, I think, to do it by flinging the hind legs out behind them than by lifting and pushing.

I would tend to agree with this. Quite a different exercise, having to engage and push to achieve "proper" lengthened strides with a rider on, rather than just prance or bog off. I have found that medium canter comes more easily because once they have a kind of balance in canter, they are propelling themselves off the ground to a degree already, but even that takes a good bit of training to get the activity behind for a horse that is not a natural lengthener.

 

[tristar]

i said newly broken, meaning a several weeks of being ridden , not newly sat on meaning just backed! a natural balanced surge forward, a promise of delights to come further down the road.

the lengthening seems to have hit a nerve with those who have problems with it!

i certainly don`t have problems with it, never needing to err.......push? i was always under the impression that true lengthening came from the release of built up energy.

 

[rachk89]

The only time I got lengthened strides from my horse is down one long side of the arena. Funnily enough it's the one heading towards his stable and food. Otherwise he won't do it.

Do you think judges will mind if I get people to stand around the arena holding buckets to make him prance better towards them?

 

[milliepops]

i certainly don`t have problems with it, never needing to err.......push? i was always under the impression that true lengthening came from the release of built up energy.

Well... yes... Which means that the horse steps under and pushes rather than being strung out pulling itself along...

 

[daffy44]

i said newly broken, meaning a several weeks of being ridden , not newly sat on meaning just backed! a natural balanced surge forward, a promise of delights to come further down the road.

the lengthening seems to have hit a nerve with those who have problems with it!

i certainly don`t have problems with it, never needing to err.......push? i was always under the impression that true lengthening came from the release of built up energy.

I certainly dont have a problem with it, my current two competing horses get 8's or 7.5 for their medium and extended trot at Inter1 and GP. But I have worked with enough horses in my life to know that it is far more natural for some horses than others, and for some it really doesnt come at all, some naturally quicken rather than lengthen, and some would prefer to change pace. But my point is that it really isnt very important, and it certainly shouldnt stop a combination from moving up the levels if everything else is in place.

ETA: It certainly requires push to do a good extension

 

[DabDab]

i said newly broken, meaning a several weeks of being ridden , not newly sat on meaning just backed! a natural balanced surge forward, a promise of delights to come further down the road.

the lengthening seems to have hit a nerve with those who have problems with it!

i certainly don`t have problems with it, never needing to err.......push? i was always under the impression that true lengthening came from the release of built up energy.

I'm not sure 'release of built up energy' is the term I'd use, that suggests you're (not you specifically, I mean 'one' but it sounds pretentious) collecting the trot right up before firing them off in medium until it naturally fizzles out into working trot again.....?
I don't have a problem with extending either, I've ridden a lot more natural extenders than anything else, because the nature of buying to back, produce a little and sell is that you pick youngsters that will easily get good marks for the cv at prelim and novice level
But I am absolutely certain that there are numerous horses that simply do not have that gear installed naturally. They may well (and often are) perfectly capable of it physically, but it is not something that it would ever occur to them to offer during training, and you can spend years coaxing it out of them.

 

[milliepops]

but it is not something that it would ever occur to them to offer during training, and you can spend years coaxing it out of them.

... meanwhile they can also be usefully learning stuff they might find easier and legitimately progress with the other higher level work which will , in turn, help develop the issue of good lengthening

A certain grey horse learned to do a medium out of passage, for example :eek3: gave the concept of push/wait/lift/contact/go which would have been 1000 times harder if we'd stuck at novice level work.

Eta "not occurring" to them is the perfect description IME :wink3:

 

[ycbm]

i certainly don`t have problems with it, never needing to err.......push? i was always under the impression that true lengthening came from the release of built up energy.

It's not the rider pushing, it's the horse.

I would not describe it as the release of built up energy. That sounds to me like winding up a clockwork toy and letting go of it, until it runs out. I would describe it as the creation of energy from the back end, channelled into both upward and forward movement. With equal importance that the additional energy can be switched off when the movement ends, without loss of balance.

I'm surprised you haven't met any horses who don't do it naturally, and I wonder if we are all actually describing the same thing.

If I watch my two in the field, one would always canter or run rather than trot bigger, and he is much less able to naturally lengthen the trot than the other when ridden.

 

[nikkimariet]

This resonates with me, thank you nm.

The horse is half the partnership and as I eluded to earlier, I do feel that if you can both get to this level of harmony then you should get the points from judges.

However... at E/M/AM it's hard to compete against the ones who "can" push the marks with the "right" (read flashy horse) and I think this is what causes most disgruntlement - where your ordinary horse can perform a correct movement i.e. a nice extended trot/hp, the nice wb does it with a flicky thing but does an unbalanced circle and gets more. This is what is most demotivating about marks.

Whats' correct vs what get marks seems errr disunited.

Fig has his weaknesses and his strengths. However, he's scoring high 60's at PSG and Inter 1 with a 70%+ record prelim to Advanced.

A naturally soft and supple horse with a few bobbles will likely still score higher than a horse who is sweating blood to get a 6.5 for a circle (I know because that's me!).

I think it's fair that the better horse gets the better mark?

Perhaps your point is that you (like me) do not appreciate horses being marked down for what they are not? Fig is mechanically and technically very correct, and I'll put myself out there and say I'm a good rider. I often look at my sheet and wonder what I would have to do to increase some marks lol.

the lengthening seems to have hit a nerve with those who have problems with it!

No, I think it's more that you speak from a self appointed pedestal that people have a problem with.

But I have worked with enough horses in my life to know that it is far more natural for some horses than others, and for some it really doesnt come at all, some naturally quicken rather than lengthen, and some would prefer to change pace. But my point is that it really isnt very important, and it certainly shouldnt stop a combination from moving up the levels if everything else is in place.

100% agree Daffy. Fig get's 6-7 for med/ext trot and 7-7.5 for med/ext canter. He's not an 8 mover in that respect.

However, he has a piaffe that most would kill for, good piri's and is super talented in the lateral work. So we pick up marks in other aspects of any test.

Even some purpose breds find certain movements harder. And ultimately, a horse is only as good as it's rider...

 

[milliepops]

If I watch my two in the field, one would always canter or run rather than trot bigger, and he is much less able to naturally lengthen the trot than the other when ridden.

Happily lots of horses who find the lengthening less natural often have strengths elsewhere ... dont know about yours but mine has found changes really natural, for example, whereas my natural lengthener found that very difficult. Swings & roundabouts

 

[daffy44]

Absolutely! Thats the point, horses are like people, they all have their own strengths and weaknesses, they are not machines. The horse with no weakness is a very rare and beautiful thing, its certainly not the norm.

So it doesnt matter what your horses best/worst traits are, just train them to the best of your ability, and enjoy what they can give you.

 

[ycbm]

Happily lots of horses who find the lengthening less natural often have strengths elsewhere ... dont know about yours but mine has found changes really natural, for example, whereas my natural lengthener found that very difficult. Swings & roundabouts

True, they are rarely all good at everything


For a reason I don't understand his medium canter is so easy to create and to bring back to working again. He's just mastered one change in each direction reliably and is clearly enjoying them (me too!). He already piaffes 2-4 steps by shortening the walk until it's stopped moving forward, when he steps up into piaffe. I'm loving training him at the moment. He's not bad for a carthorse

 

[CoachinaCar]

You can't put in what God left out but you can enhance it.

Sorry if some of this has already been said as I have not read all the posts. You need to work on suppleness, you need exercises that get to parts of his body that other exercises don't, the more supple the more able to use his body to show medium steps and not just his legs.

Lots of trot canter trot canter, counter canter with the wrong bend so you really stretch his leading leg side. Lots of trot halt, halt trot, looking for sitting in the downward transition and coming up through the shoulder in the upward. train the reaction to the leg you want which is up through the shoulder when the leg goes on and not out through the shoulder, get height you will get length.

Very short spurts of on and don't keep going if he has lost it, don't let him learn to do it incorrectly.

Lots of leg yields in trot and canter with too much bend so it is a suppling exercise and reaction training exercise more than a perfect shoulder in. Stretching over his top line and then bringing him back up in the poll and out in the nose.

The exercises to improve suppleness are endless and he needs to be supple everywhere to lengthen if it is not a normal thing for him, counter canter with the wrong bend into trot and then ask for medium would be my favorite but I would also say if he does not do it naturally and still struggle after training then don't spend too much time on it, spend more time on improving what he can do. Get and extra .5 for everything else and you can still do well if only a 5 for the mediums. If you work like mad on the mediums the rest of the work will go downhill and you will probably only bring the medium mark up by 1 to 1.5 which is only twice in a test and if you have lost .5 on everything else you will be worse off.

 

[tristar]

my experience, if i`m allowed to say anything without being subjected to team sparkle aka n marriot grenades.

is, that i work the horse in such a way, so gently that it looks like not a lot is happening yet it is on a very deep level, so when the horse is collected then asked for med or ex trot the result is completely natural yet dynamic release and surge forward of the whole horse which needs the minimal leg contact mainly for communication and support, the result is 100 per cent due to the preparation and it is strangely effortless, i find that the most subtle tact is the main ingredient to get there, almost going to a place where `trying ` is the last thing needed.


is there anyone who can answer op`s question or shed light or their own thoughts on the subject of flashy paces, i`d love to read others theories?

 

[daffy44]

You can't put in what God left out but you can enhance it.

Sorry if some of this has already been said as I have not read all the posts. You need to work on suppleness, you need exercises that get to parts of his body that other exercises don't, the more supple the more able to use his body to show medium steps and not just his legs.

Lots of trot canter trot canter, counter canter with the wrong bend so you really stretch his leading leg side. Lots of trot halt, halt trot, looking for sitting in the downward transition and coming up through the shoulder in the upward. train the reaction to the leg you want which is up through the shoulder when the leg goes on and not out through the shoulder, get height you will get length.

Very short spurts of on and don't keep going if he has lost it, don't let him learn to do it incorrectly.

Lots of leg yields in trot and canter with too much bend so it is a suppling exercise and reaction training exercise more than a perfect shoulder in. Stretching over his top line and then bringing him back up in the poll and out in the nose.

The exercises to improve suppleness are endless and he needs to be supple everywhere to lengthen if it is not a normal thing for him, counter canter with the wrong bend into trot and then ask for medium would be my favorite but I would also say if he does not do it naturally and still struggle after training then don't spend too much time on it, spend more time on improving what he can do. Get and extra .5 for everything else and you can still do well if only a 5 for the mediums. If you work like mad on the mediums the rest of the work will go downhill and you will probably only bring the medium mark up by 1 to 1.5 which is only twice in a test and if you have lost .5 on everything else you will be worse off.

Brilliant, and beautifully described.

 

[j1ffy]

Tristar, I don't believe that was a Sparkles grenade, they're usually a lot more explosive. It's great that you find it so easy to get a true medium, but I doubt I'm alone in wondering what types of horses you have and the level you ride them to?

I have never seen my Spanish horses naturally extend in the field - one will do a passage-y type trot (and is now offering passage steps under saddle when we work on collected trot) but I have never seen him do a more ground-covering trot, he'll break into canter if he wants to get somewhere faster. My other has a nice medium under saddle but he trots like a donkey in the field and prefers a collected canter if he wants to show off.

 

[Goldenstar]

Brilliant, and beautifully described.

Yes very well put .

 

[ycbm]

counter canter with the wrong bend into trot and then ask for medium

This is one I've never heard of before and it will be tested later today!

The whole of this post was excellent, and also a perfect description of how I have taught my Clydex. He can now do three proper lengthened strides, and is also strong enough to hold an elevated trot that feels very close to medium for several minutes. He's getting there!


Incidentally, a friend commented on the large areas of muscle that he has behind the saddle, equal on both sides, firm and malleable. She thought they were abnormal. I think they are fantastic top line development. Views?

 

[milliepops]

Incidentally, a friend commented on the large areas of muscle that he has behind the saddle, equal on both sides, firm and malleable. She thought they were abnormal. I think they are fantastic top line development. Views?

not a clue but my Welsh-built-like-a-brick-outhouse mare also has fairly well developed muscle behind the saddle, that wasn't there 3 years ago before she was brought back into work. She has a strong back and a good ability to sit, I guess the 2 go hand in hand possibly (she's not the natural extender!) Physios etc always comment on her suppleness and stability, there's rarely any tight spots.

 

[Wheels]

This is one I've never heard of before and it will be tested later today!

The whole of this post was excellent, and also a perfect description of how I have taught my Clydex. He can now do three proper lengthened strides, and is also strong enough to hold an elevated trot that feels very close to medium for several minutes. He's getting there!


Incidentally, a friend commented on the large areas of muscle that he has behind the saddle, equal on both sides, firm and malleable. She thought they were abnormal. I think they are fantastic top line development. Views?

Do they appear to be bulky in comparison to the rest of the topline? Or are they in keeping with the rest of his muscle development?

Any pics of said area?

 

[ycbm]

I think this photo shoots both his large musculature and the rise in his back muscles behind the saddle

If photo doesn't show, I need to wait until broadband speeds up at midnight!

 

[Goldenstar]

Do they appear to be bulky in comparison to the rest of the topline? Or are they in keeping with the rest of his muscle development?

Any pics of said area?

That's my question if the loin muscles are more developed that those under the saddle and up on to the wither I would not be happy if he where mine .

 

[ycbm]

Let's try again. The wet string has dried out a bit now people are going to bed

 

[Wheels]

It's hard to see in the pic but I can see there is a minor over development in the loins, more so than the rest of the topline and that is not what I would want to see - over development in one spot can mean under development elsewhere, it could point to hind limb issues or there could be something going on in the deeper muscles. It looks like your horse has quite a short back and longer lumbar area which can mean weaknesses in the joints, ligaments etc. in that particular area.

It can also be down to saddle fit issues - saddle too long or tipping back maybe or a seat too small for the rider that puts the weight too far back are among the saddle fit problems I see where horses are sore or stiff in this area.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks for that Wheels.

He's not sore or stiff anywhere, except for having locking stifles which he appears to have mostly grown out of. He will occasionally 'drop off' the right one, but it's very infrequent these days. His development is equal, and his work has never been better. I fit my own saddles and I have for decades and never had a back problem yet that the horse wasn't born with. I'll call the physio for a check over, it won't hurt. I think all I can do is to take it for now that it's what happens when a bum high cart horse learns to sit and wait. He's a joy to train at the moment

Apologies for derailing this thread, everyone, I should have started another one.

 

[Wheels]

Stifle probless I suppose could cause this if he's having to work harder to sit - physio is a good idea but also just take an extra look at your saddle next time you ride, check headplate size etc. See if someone can take a short video in trot to see if it is bouncing or rocking - just to be on the safe side

 

[ycbm]

OK, thanks for the advice.