ester
Not slacking multitasking
I'm loling slightly that the in ring commentary and youtube commentary are clearly reading off the same cheat sheet, just with a bit of delay. .
Crufts roll call!
- Thread starter druid
- Start date
P3LH
Well-Known Member
Pleasantly surprised by the rough collie BOB. Bitterly disappointed at the abomination BOB of the Pembroke - no legs, too long and dragging along the floor. Knew it would go that way from the placing so saw earlier in the day. Ho hum. The vallhund was nice.
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Annette4
Well-Known Member
I'm gutted I didn't manage to get across for any of the judging, we ended up on the stall or in the Good Citizen ring most of the day. There were some OBESE corgis walking round though
EllieBeast
Well-Known Member
Congratulations on what looks to have been a fabulous day!! You must be so proud of your lot
P3LH
Well-Known Member
The sad thing is this year, there were some amazing examples of the breed there. Better than the last five id say - but interestingly, most the good ones were from overseas. The good quality types from British kennels were completely absent and murmurs on the grapevine tell me it’s due to knowing what would be placed under the judge and not feeling it was worth it.I'm gutted I didn't manage to get across for any of the judging, we ended up on the stall or in the Good Citizen ring most of the day. There were some OBESE corgis walking round though
It was like breeders suddenly got the memo this year that a herding breed needs legs and is no good with a back so long they can’t jump. Some really ‘classic’ stamps of dogs, good level top lines, chest not too deep, good leg length, the nice up tuck shape and heads improved too.
Open dog in particular had some wonderful examples. I was seeing coffee tables as I like to call them, lovely and square shape, sturdy legs that are very upright, level top line and good neck arch. Yet everything that did well was super long, rolled when it moved and dragged itself along the floor. The movement was nearly as bad as the ‘breed type’. Seeing the BOB on Tv last night was very frustrating.
The depth of quality in rough collies was similar - classic dogs by the bucket load, yet the modern type was fairing well when I was watching. Glad a more moderate BOB was picked though. Good kennel and decent breeders too.
Errin Paddywack
Well-Known Member
I watched a lot of it on YouTube yesterday. I was cracking up at the subtitles. When you can hear what is being said then see the written 'translation' on the screen it is hilarious.
P3LH
Well-Known Member
I’ll be completely honest. I was ringside for quite a lot of judging in a variety of breeds yesterday, not just my own. Between what I saw there and some of the drivel being spoken at discover dogs in relation to certain breeds (primarily those predisposed to health issues due to how they have been bred in terms of anatomy) - i actually left yesterday feeling very disillusioned with the entire fanfare, process and organisation.
Crufts, dog showing, dog sports etc are things I’ve been into and a part of my entire life. Like many here, the dog world is in my blood. I can’t recall many years with the exception of two, that I’ve missed attending crufts during my time upon the planet. I often go to spectate at breed club shows too. But yesterday, I felt dismayed. I think with some breeds, possibly even a lot of breeds, we’re getting it wrong in a number of ways. I personally would struggle to pick from the Working, pastoral and gun dog group judging, many of the BOB that were still fit for function. There were some, but some is all.
Felt really quite sad about it this year. Then have to try balance this and remind myself there are some breeds and some breeders who are getting it so very right.
Crufts, dog showing, dog sports etc are things I’ve been into and a part of my entire life. Like many here, the dog world is in my blood. I can’t recall many years with the exception of two, that I’ve missed attending crufts during my time upon the planet. I often go to spectate at breed club shows too. But yesterday, I felt dismayed. I think with some breeds, possibly even a lot of breeds, we’re getting it wrong in a number of ways. I personally would struggle to pick from the Working, pastoral and gun dog group judging, many of the BOB that were still fit for function. There were some, but some is all.
Felt really quite sad about it this year. Then have to try balance this and remind myself there are some breeds and some breeders who are getting it so very right.
Morwenna
Well-Known Member
I’ve been disappointed at many of the best in breeds too and agree that very few in the three groups so far are actually fit for purpose. So many obese dogs, it’s really sad. Crufts make all the right noises about vet inspections for certain breeds and their spiel about how gene testing is eradicating certain issues and the importance of healthy dogs is great. But it all means nothing while these are winning. Seeing the lab that won best in breed and could barely lumber round the ring, and then the lab that won its two agility classes and was overall winner, they almost looked like completely different breeds.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
I accept that the working and show lines of most breeds are almost completely divided.
But thinking of show labs, ok so they are short legged and thicker bodied than the workers but they should still, surely, be physically capable of at least a two hour brisk walk? Using @SAujla and his Clover, I meet him every year for a walk and she runs and plays with the same stamina and enthusiasm as my lot. Ok she won’t get wet but that’s different
.
I think it’s the belief that obese is normal and acceptable. Crufts is supposed to promote dogs to a huge audience. It fails to do this in a responsible way.
But thinking of show labs, ok so they are short legged and thicker bodied than the workers but they should still, surely, be physically capable of at least a two hour brisk walk? Using @SAujla and his Clover, I meet him every year for a walk and she runs and plays with the same stamina and enthusiasm as my lot. Ok she won’t get wet but that’s different
.I think it’s the belief that obese is normal and acceptable. Crufts is supposed to promote dogs to a huge audience. It fails to do this in a responsible way.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
The difference between the gundogs in the display and those in the group was very obvious. Likewise in the vulnerable breed ring a couple of the gundog breed were so heavy. But it was good to see a bloodhound with far fewer face wrinkles.
Going back to the agility, why did the commentators keep referring to Fox Red labradors as if they were a different breed ? They didn't say black lab, or yellow lab or merle collie etc.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
I felt the same about the showing lab, it looked like an old dog not one in its prime. I wasn’t really impressed by many of the dogs this year, most of them looked like they didn’t want be be there and not many of them could move , although we hardly saw enough to judge
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
I accept that the working and show lines of most breeds are almost completely divided.
But thinking of show labs, ok so they are short legged and thicker bodied than the workers but they should still, surely, be physically capable of at least a two hour brisk walk? Using @SAujla and his Clover, I meet him every year for a walk and she runs and plays with the same stamina and enthusiasm as my lot. Ok she won’t get wet but that’s different
I think it’s the belief that obese is normal and acceptable. Crufts is supposed to promote dogs to a huge audience. It fails to do this in a responsible way.
There was a lab in the agility who was more show type, quite chunky and heavier than I like to see, but she was an older girl and obviously still athletic enough to qualify for Crufts, no easy task.
Clodagh
Well-Known Member
Yet another of my absolute pet hates. People out shooting ‘oh I’ve got a fox red’. Well, a fox red what? Fashion. Pah
blackcob
🖖
As an exhibitor I have an occasional ethical wibble about it all P3LH. I know that the dog I'm showing is as responsibly bred as it's possible to be within a closed studbook system; IMO the breed has no exaggerated features, he is health tested beyond things that the KC even bother to record, and FWIW capable of performing the probably slightly mythologised original function of the breed. I also work him in a sport so I know there's a certain degree of soundness and temperament there.
However, being a utility breed we are always there on the day of two of the worst offending breeds (IMO) and when an extreme example ends up in the group, I do wonder at the system that allows these very exaggerated dogs to be rewarded. The KC do make all the right noises but while the Cat 3 vet inspection is hands-off and cursory (and now absent entirely for the French bulldog), they continue to register dogs without health testing, and apart from any other health issues dogs that are simply fat are still put up, then it is just noises.
However, being a utility breed we are always there on the day of two of the worst offending breeds (IMO) and when an extreme example ends up in the group, I do wonder at the system that allows these very exaggerated dogs to be rewarded. The KC do make all the right noises but while the Cat 3 vet inspection is hands-off and cursory (and now absent entirely for the French bulldog), they continue to register dogs without health testing, and apart from any other health issues dogs that are simply fat are still put up, then it is just noises.
blackcob
🖖
Yet another of my absolute pet hates. People out shooting ‘oh I’ve got a fox red’. Well, a fox red what? Fashion. Pah
I take great delight in registering them as yellow.
P3LH
Well-Known Member
And I think that’s exactly it. There are some breeds for whom it appears people have consistently gotten it ‘right’. And others were it couldn’t have gone more wrong/deviated more from the fundamental concept of what a dog should be.
I did find last nights St Bernard BOB a breath of fresh air. A lovely head, no big droopy eyes no big domed skull, moved well too. A huge improvement on previous years. It can be done.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
I know exactly what you mean, obviously GSDs have had huge issues and I won't argue there have been and still are problems, but I think the majority of breeders are trying to correct things. I didn't know the bitch who went into the group, but she seemed to be a happy girl , tail never stopped wagging, and not too extreme. So it reallly p***ed me off when, as she entered the big ring, the commentator started banging on about cat 3 and how she had to pass examination before going in the ring, yet nothing was said about others in the group who waddled round the ring.
Moobli
Well-Known Member
A bit like the commentators in agility saying working sheepdog for non registered border collies. It’s not a big deal at all but irks me a bit. Working sheepdog is a term that should be reserved for dogs that actually work livestock.Yet another of my absolute pet hates. People out shooting ‘oh I’ve got a fox red’. Well, a fox red what? Fashion. Pah
Moobli
Well-Known Member
Totally agree , that St Bernard was really lovely and a huge improvement on previous years. I liked the White Swiss Shepherd too.
P3LH
Well-Known Member
I came home to my mob last night and thought ‘and there’s me thinking from a construction pov you could all be better, I’ll never gripe again’. my corgis have practically no back and Lurcher legs by comparison, and my rough is comparatively bald and svelte.
Mine are all from responsible, good, ‘show breeders’ like yours and bred as ‘right’ as is possible. Yet I know if I put any of them in the ring yesterday, they’ve have struggled to get a look in. Because of who was judging. Which calls into play the ethical issue of interpretation - we all know there are some judges it wouldn’t be worth entering under and that’s a problem. Interpretation of standards has, in some breeds, destroyed them at worst and at best deviated from the original purpose so much.
I don’t think some of the winning Pembrokes yesterday would keep up with mine on a walk, would dive in rivers and climb hills, take off hunting, go hiking or even be able to jump off the sofa. I equally looked at a lot of the rough collies, not all but a lot, and thought when they’re the age of my last remaining boy will they still be sound, go for long walks (when he can be bothered) and up until recently still be able to clear a five bar gate? Probably not.
blackcob
🖖
Did you see the black GSD in the ABC - a little portly, I thought!
I saw an example put up at a champ show recently with a muzzle so short it was upturned and had a heavy overnose wrinkle, like a bulldog. It's why the heavy media focus on Crufts makes me eyeroll a bit - most of these dogs are being exhibited and winning almost behind closed doors at shows throughout the year, it shouldn't just be a clean-up effort because it's going to be on TV. Although of course a moderate example being put up is only a good thing!
P3LH
Well-Known Member
I also thought there was a huge improvement in the Great Danes I saw, the dobermans, the Shetland sheepdogs and the bearded collies too. Exaggerations were much less the norm in these rings yesterday. And as I said, the St Bernard was stunning. Saw her in the flesh in the day too - even nicer. World away from recent years
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
P3LH
Well-Known Member
My mum made a comparison yesterday that as to some St Bernard heads being chrysanthemum heads like a Shih tzu. The more I looked the more I saw it. Thankfully, there are some breeders breeding stunning animals that actually resemble the breed they are supposed to be. The more moderate dogs didn’t ooze the same level of slobber or heavy breathe either.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Can I ask what you thought about the GSD BOB (showing) please? I found watching the dog move actually quite upsetting. Was that a good example of a healthy show dog ? I have virtually no knowledge of the breed tbh and barely even know anyone with a GSD except a couple from years back who had a couple of lovely dogs but they were never really show dogs. Oh, and I used to know, vaguely, a policeman with working GSDs.
blackcob
🖖
Exactly this. My moderate-bordering-on-athletic dog had a 1st last year under a breed specialist but probably won't get a look in this year under an all rounder. I keep a spreadsheet and there's many judges not to bother going under.
Happily, the heaviest boned, heavily coated and flashy moving dogs in our breed tend to be docked US imports and therefore won't be attending. Frustrating to see them being put up time after time the rest of the year though. Even then, they are still dog-shaped and generally free from health issues.
Moobli
Well-Known Member
Just a little aside, on a farming FB group I’m in a lady has just purchased a lovely looking Pembroke Corgi puppy and is hoping to work her when she’s older. I’ve asked her to let me know how she gets on.
MurphysMinder
Well-Known Member
As I said I have never seen her and would never pass judgement on movement from what I'd seen on the Crufts carpet. Yes, she was all over the place to start with in her individual but did settle, she had probably never in her life been asked to move restricted on a short lead like that, GSDs are usually shown on a long lead ahead of the handler. Many pull far too much doing this, which is something I wish people would stop encouraging but that is another story. Health wise, as I said she passed the vet test, and I have just looked up her health tests and she has a hip score of 5:6 and elbows of 0, both scores I would be happy with.
P3LH
Well-Known Member
There are actually quite a few still used as ‘general’ farm dogs I would say. I’ve seen some actually herding, not just following a group of tame sheep or walking alongside a herd of cows going in the same direction, and they are very good. In some lines that heeling drive and instinct is still very very prevalent - I have one dosing at my feet currently who missed her calling and, on reflection, was such a difficult/as no youngster purely because she had so much drive and as a result was naturally very sharp.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Thank you. Her movement looked rather odd (and not very sound) to me but I take your point about movement on the Crufts carpet and her inexperience. She had a very sloping back I thought - is that still normal? Hip and elbow scores I understand though sadly a good friend of mine with a lab with excellent scores has just found out that her young dog has an elbow problem. As for the BOB bitch - honestly both my OH and I thought that if that is how GSDs are supposed to move they surely can't be 'healthy' and we would not entertain the breed. Sad and I hope I am not causing offence - she just looked so, so weak and wobbly to us.