Dangerous / aggressive horse - advice needed?!

[happyhorse978]

As a last resort could you try someone who is used to dealing with racehorses and see what they think ? Understandably it sounds as if you are getting nervous around him which is probably not helping the situation.

I have tried that too, and unfortunately he is just the same with everyone, which is what makes me think it is pain.
It is almost safer for me to handle him, I know the warning signs, I know when I am pushing my luck/asking too much, but other people don't and thats how the trainer got bitten the other day, because she didnt listen to me when I said thats enough

 

[Goldenstar]

I did have a horse whose behaviour while not as extreme as yours was similar I threw everything at it spent 30k in end I put him down he had tumours they found them when they where preparing him for the hounds .

 

[Regandal]

What an awful situation. If you do a Danilon trial, cover him with a PPI, eg omeprazole, to avoid stomach irritation. Is there any history of injuries whilst in training? Maybe a bad fall?

 

[happyhorse978]

I did have a horse whose behaviour while not as extreme as yours was similar I threw everything at it spent 30k in end I put him down he had tumours they found them when they where preparing him for the hounds .

Oh no, do you mean brain tumours? x

 

[bonny]

Oh no, do you mean brain tumours? x

I very much doubt he’s had tumours for years, how old is he ? Does he look well ?

 

[happyhorse978]

What an awful situation. If you do a Danilon trial, cover him with a PPI, eg omeprazole, to avoid stomach irritation. Is there any history of injuries whilst in training? Maybe a bad fall?

Thank you, I'm just talking to my vet now about a danilon trial. She has agreed so will trial that straight away, which should give me a relatively straight forward answer in one way or another.

He had no leg injuries whilst in training, he retired sound but I am unsure of any falls, the staff at the yard never said anything when I asked but tbh I am not sure they've been totally honest throughout!

 

[happyhorse978]

I very much doubt he’s had tumours for years, how old is he ? Does he look well ?

No I am not saying he has, I was just asking the poster about her experience. The behaviour has only become dangerous over the past 12 months, it was manageable before. He is 7 yrs old, looks very well.

 

[bonny]

Thank you, I'm just talking to my vet now about a danilon trial. She has agreed so will trial that straight away, which should give me a relatively straight forward answer in one way or another.

He had no leg injuries whilst in training, he retired sound but I am unsure of any falls, the staff at the yard never said anything when I asked but tbh I am not sure they've been totally honest throughout!

Have you looked up his racing record ? What kind of racing did he do ?

 

[Annagain]

No, I dont let anybody else handle him. I would never put anyone else at risk. (I know people will say I put a behavioural trainer at risk but actually i didnt, i fully disclosed everything and advised her not to do something, which she still did, and she admits this was an error of judgement) - but no body else handles him apart from me, twice daily

This is good but you need a back-up plan in case you're ill or he hurts you too and you can't deal with him, what would happen then? I must admit, I'd be considering calling it a day with him, not just because he could be a danger but because it has to be a reaction to some sort of pain or remembered pain so he's probably suffering too. Nobody is enjoying this situation, him included. I'd go for a Danilon trial and if that makes no difference, call it a day.

 

[happyhorse978]

Have you looked up his racing record ? What kind of racing did he do ?

Yeah, I know his full history, he was NH.

 

[happyhorse978]

This is good but you need a back-up plan in case you're ill or he hurts you too and you can't deal with him, what would happen then? I must admit, I'd be considering calling it a day with him, not just because he could be a danger but because it has to be a reaction to some sort of pain or remembered pain so he's probably suffering too. I'd go for a Danilon trial and if that makes no difference, call it a day.

Thank you so much, this is what I am thinking at the moment.
I am finding it incredibly hard, I've never had a horse pts before. So i really am beating myself up, but if he is suffering one way or another, then i want and need to do the right thing and let him go peacefully.

 

[splashgirl45]

I would just like to say that I commend you for doing so much . We had a pony at the yard many years ago who was quite dangerous in the stable, only certain people were allowed to handle him as he bit so badly. We will never know why he behaved like this but one of the girls on the yard bought him and kept him out 24/7 and he never showed any aggression again. Have you tried leaving him out and not putting him in a stable ever?

 

[paddy555]

a bute trial may give some info. I would try 2 am and 2 pm the first day and 2 am the second day. (with your vet's agreement) and leave him alone as much a possible ie don't put him into a situation where he can react to you and try and see if there is improvement.
I would sedate if needed and get a heavy rug something like 400g on him and if you can't change or adjust it so be it just leave it. If he is not already having it I would give 10000iu vit e daily. Just to have some idea if he has muscle pain or vit e deficiency. Couple of weeks of that may give more info either good or bad.

You don't say anywhere, and perhaps you don't with to get that close to find out but what are the muscles like over his hindquarters, soft or hard as a board.

The other thing I would consider is if he actually is in pain. You said you were used to sharp horses but not aggressive ones.

Clearly he was "sharp" when he came then he got aggressive with ulcer pain and had a good reason for it.
Then the pain went but did he mentally think by that stage he was starting to get the upper hand. He keeps pushing and realises he can keep pushing a little more especially with his size.

I took on a horse like that, couldn't touch him from the shoulder back and you definitely didn't go there unless you wanted to get eaten. Wouldn't dare touch his sides. Obvious was pain, ulcers, HGA or something. Real problem was mentally he was so mad, furious and annoyed with his previous owner and the way he had been kept and it took him a long time to realise things had changed for him. (he had in fact been well kept by horse standards but he was such a highly strung lad it was not suitable for him)
Not saying it is you or your home but that this is mental, he doesn't realise he is not far from PTS and he is quite happy with his behaviour towards you.

 

[happyhorse978]

I would just like to say that I commend you for doing so much . We had a pony at the yard many years ago who was quite dangerous in the stable, only certain people were allowed to handle him as he bit so badly. We will never know why he behaved like this but one of the girls on the yard bought him and kept him out 24/7 and he never showed any aggression again. Have you tried leaving him out and not putting him in a stable ever?

Thank you so much that really means a lot. He lives out 24/7 for as much as the year as possible, and then is just stabled at night time for a few months over the winter. His behaviour is the same whether he is turned out 24/7 or stabled during the night time. thankyou xx

 

[happyhorse978]

a bute trial may give some info. I would try 2 am and 2 pm the first day and 2 am the second day. (with your vet's agreement) and leave him alone as much a possible ie don't put him into a situation where he can react to you and try and see if there is improvement.
I would sedate if needed and get a heavy rug something like 400g on him and if you can't change or adjust it so be it just leave it. If he is not already having it I would give 10000iu vit e daily. Just to have some idea if he has muscle pain or vit e deficiency. Couple of weeks of that may give more info either good or bad.

You don't say anywhere, and perhaps you don't with to get that close to find out but what are the muscles like over his hindquarters, soft or hard as a board.

The other thing I would consider is if he actually is in pain. You said you were used to sharp horses but not aggressive ones.

Clearly he was "sharp" when he came then he got aggressive with ulcer pain and had a good reason for it.
Then the pain went but did he mentally think by that stage he was starting to get the upper hand. He keeps pushing and realises he can keep pushing a little more especially with his size.

I took on a horse like that, couldn't touch him from the shoulder back and you definitely didn't go there unless you wanted to get eaten. Wouldn't dare touch his sides. Obvious was pain, ulcers, HGA or something. Real problem was mentally he was so mad, furious and annoyed with his previous owner and the way he had been kept and it took him a long time to realise things had changed for him. (he had in fact been well kept by horse standards but he was such a highly strung lad it was not suitable for him)
Not saying it is you or your home but that this is mental, he doesn't realise he is not far from PTS and he is quite happy with his behaviour towards you.

Thank you, unfortunately I cannot put him in a 400g heavy rug, he would cook and it would be unfair, he isnt a 'cold' horse and he has been plenty warm enough in 100g over winter before now, he does not get clipped as obviously doesnt get ridden! He is in a 50g at the minute (I had him sedated so i could get it on ) and he is plenty warm enough in that. Any more and he would be sweating.

Thank you i will defnintely consider the vit E. His muslces seem generally soft and the physio/vets never had any concerns with that either .

There probably is a case of this, but tbh i am not sure how to resolve this when you cannot get in his space to safely work with him? sometimes standing too close to him is enough to trigger the aggression. And he isnt just like it with me, it is anyone .

thank you xxx

 

[Annagain]

Thank you so much, this is what I am thinking at the moment.
I am finding it incredibly hard, I've never had a horse pts before. So i really am beating myself up, but if he is suffering one way or another, then i want and need to do the right thing and let him go peacefully.

We've been through it recently with my old share horse for very different reasons - he was never aggressive but since retiring 18 months ago seemed to be increasingly depressed. Even when in full work he didn't enjoy winter and he didn't go through winter retirement brilliantly last year (whereas my old boy has thrived since retiring) so his owner decided not to put him through this winter. It's never an easy decision and even harder when they are ostensibly healthy but mental anguish is just as valid a reason as physical to make that call. She said that although she's really sad, she mainly feels relieved to know he's not going to get any worse over the winter (I'm just sad about it at the moment but hopefully I can get to the same place soon.) so I imagine relief would come into it for you too if you get that far.

 

[Carlosmum]

Having followed the other posts on here recently about PTS. I would perhaps go down that route. It sounds as though he is unhappy, probably in pain. A horse you cant handle is dangerous to you and others. I recently said goodbye to my pony, partly due to health reasons but also because of behavioural issues. I came off him too many times for comfort at my age and after battling for 10 years with his 'issues' I called time. I am so relieved I did it, it was the right decision for me, even if I do feel like I let him, down ( a bit) for not carrying on. What ever you decide PTS is never wrong IMO.

 

[ester]

How much of a pain work up has he actually had? Or has it been limited due to his behaviour.
I have to say my first response was Id PTS because he sounds so very unhappy, whatever the reason. But I get that you’d prefer more answers first.

 

[happyhorse978]

We've been through it recently with my old share horse for very different reasons - he was never aggressive but since retiring 18 months ago seemed to be increasingly depressed. Even when in full work he didn't enjoy winter and he didn't go through winter retirement brilliantly last year (whereas my old boy has thrived since retiring) so his owner decided not to put him through this winter. It's never an easy decision and even harder when they are ostensibly healthy but mental anguish is just as valid a reason as physical to make that call. She said that although she's really sad, she mainly feels relieved to know he's not going to get any worse over the winter (I'm just sad about it at the moment but hopefully I can get to the same place soon.) so I imagine relief would come into it for you too if you get that far.

thank you so much, I am sorry to hear about your boy xx

 

[happyhorse978]

Having followed the other posts on here recently about PTS. I would perhaps go done that route. It sounds as though he is unhappy, probably in pain. A horse you cant handle is dangerous to you and others. I recently said goodbye to my pony, partly due to health reasons but also because of behavioural issues. I came off him too many times for comfort at my age and after battling for 10 years with his 'issues' I called time. I am so relieved I did it, it was the right decision for me, even if I do feel like I let hi, down ( a nit) for not carrying on. What ever you decide PTS is never wrong IMO.

thank you so much. it is so difficult isnt it x

 

[Tiddlypom]

If ulcers are involved, be prepared for bute or Danilon to make him much worse, as they will be aggravated.

My mare went from grumpy to dangerous on a short Danilon trial, which was one of the observations that led on to her subsequent accurate diagnosis of hind gut issues.

Now that her hind gut issues are fairly well managed, she can have short courses of Danilon without ill effect.

 

[happyhorse978]

How much of a pain work up has he actually had?

Scoped 3 times, ulcers treated originally but never returned, back-xrays, stifle x-rays and ultrasounded (all fine), extensive physio sessions with fantastic physiotherapist , different vets out to see him but never any general unsoundness (i.e. he is sound in walk trot canter) - I have even tried the holistic route as a stab in the dark (I dont particularly believe in it but i had nothing to lose by trying it, but that made no difference either )

Honestly i feel i am running out of options
HIs feet are fine, he has good feet for a TB

 

[bonny]

Thank you, unfortunately I cannot put him in a 400g heavy rug, he would cook and it would be unfair, he isnt a 'cold' horse and he has been plenty warm enough in 100g over winter before now, he does not get clipped as obviously doesnt get ridden! He is in a 50g at the minute (I had him sedated so i could get it on ) and he is plenty warm enough in that. Any more and he would be sweating.

Thank you i will defnintely consider the vit E. His muslces seem generally soft and the physio/vets never had any concerns with that either .

There probably is a case of this, but tbh i am not sure how to resolve this when you cannot get in his space to safely work with him? sometimes standing too close to him is enough to trigger the aggression. And he isnt just like it with me, it is anyone .

thank you xxx

If he’s so bad that no one can even stand next to him a bute trial is really not going to make much of a difference even if he is in pain. I think you should either pts now or find someone who is used to dealing with difficult horses to have him for a while and see if they can make a difference.

 

[happyhorse978]

If ulcers are involved, be prepared for bute or Danilon to make him much worse, as they will be aggravated.

My mare went from grumpy to dangerous on a short Danilon trial, which was one of the observations that led on to her subsequent accurate diagnosis of hind gut issues.

thank you, I am doing it as a last resort, his ulcers have never returned but i am considering hind gut issues too (also discussing with my vet) x

 

[happyhorse978]

If he’s so bad that no one can even stand next to him a bute trial is really not going to make much of a difference even if he is in pain. I think you should either pts now or find someone who is used to dealing with difficult horses to have him for a while and see if they can make a difference.

I am not prepared to put someone else at risk, plus the fact he wont travel anymore (another reason i think he is in pain as he has always been fab to travel).
I didnt say no one can stand next to him ever, i just said sometimes even standing too close to him can trigger the aggressive behaviour, if he is in that 'mood'. As i have said, I have only ever dealt with difficult horses, i like a challenge, and never had an issue. this isnt difficult, this is aggressive, and he is the same with anybody.

 

[SEL]

Have the vets looked at his hormone levels? I was on livery with a teenage gelding who over the course of a year started to behave like an aggressive stallion. Vet put him on regumate (can't remember for how long) & he lived for years after with no more issues.

My now 12 yo mare came to me as a dangerous 4yo heading to the hunt. She still has her moments but her behaviour when she was young was due to her early years handling and a considerable amount of pain (ulcers, PSSM). I know what it's like to own a horse you dare not let anyone else near. I also put one down earlier this year who behaviour around humans was unpredictable and dangerous. It's a tough call and you have my sympathy

 

[happyhorse978]

Have the vets looked at his hormone levels? I was on livery with a teenage gelding who over the course of a year started to behave like an aggressive stallion. Vet put him on regumate (can't remember for how long) & he lived for years after with no more issues.

My now 12 yo mare came to me as a dangerous 4yo heading to the hunt. She still has her moments but her behaviour when she was young was due to her early years handling and a considerable amount of pain (ulcers, PSSM). I know what it's like to own a horse you dare not let anyone else near. I also put one down earlier this year who behaviour around humans was unpredictable and dangerous. It's a tough call and you have my sympathy

Thank you so much xx there has been no mention of hormone levels with my vet but i will certainly mention it x thankyou

 

[Squidge_94]

Completely off the bat but have you tried popping a grazing muzzle on securely when handling him? Put a treat or 2 in the bottom when you put it on so then he associates it with something good. Then at least you dont have to worry about him taking a chunk out of you whilst you try to work out what's wrong with him and you can still reward him for good behaviour through the little hole at the bottom.
I know many will disagree but it's a dangerous behaviour and a grazing muzzle isn't exactly cruel.
I've seen this done before on a very, very dangerous horse. Made life a bit easier for the owner and the vet certainly appreciated it whilst they were sorting the poor mares issues!

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

My heart goes out to you, you could be describing my mare's behaviour a couple of years back now. But in her case, although she had always been a feisty typical mare with her own opinion she was never remotely dangerous, her sudden change in behaviour was literally overnight scaled up to totally unpredictable and downright lethal.

I walked across the field and stood beside her to put her headcollar on, she looked rather odd as I approached her, almost like she was in a trance and didn't even see me walking towards her . As I reached up to put it on, she reared up directly at me, flailing her hooves at me with ears pinned back, squealed and then flew off at a flat out gallop kicking out at me as she went.

Long story short and many thousands of euro and time with the vet later and quite sometime with lulls of her normal self and then very sudden very dangerous attacks we got to the bottom of it all. My vet would not even risk travelling her to the horsepital he regarded her as so dangerous even if he sedated her. He was not happy with me handling her and we were very close to PTS as every test under the sun was coming back either something not quite right or totally normal. It did seems as though brain tumour was the only possible cause left.

Fortunately just before the decision was made he went to a conference in the UK and spoke to some specialists and showed them all her results and what he had tried so far. It transpired she had in fact at some point picked up Lymes disease, and her symptoms did occur in a few equine cases that were not readily recognised at initial presentation or initial bloods. So she was treated, a long and hard treatment but she very slowly improved, her bloods were also improving, although still now not great at times. But she is very well in herself 4 years later happily retired in her field with her donkeys.

She does still have the odd trance like behaviour, but much more low key and we just leave her alone until she seems to be back with us, she has never been aggressive to us since. But the only people I allow to handle her is my vet, my farrier and my son, just in case. Even if I could ride I dont think I would risk riding her again, apart from now being a little stiff from time to time, my vet agrees that a sudden trance or explosion out on the road can't be ruled out and would be very risky for all concerned.

I do hope you can find an answer, but if not I would not hesitate to PTS, if Dolly's behaviour had not improved dramatically after the treatment for Lymes that was to be the outcome for everyone's safety and her very obvious distress.

 

[happyhorse978]

Completely off the bat but have you tried popping a grazing muzzle on securely when handling him? Put a treat or 2 in the bottom when you put it on so then he associates it with something good. Then at least you dont have to worry about him taking a chunk out of you whilst you try to work out what's wrong with him and you can still reward him for good behaviour through the little hole at the bottom.
I know many will disagree but it's a dangerous behaviour and a grazing muzzle isn't exactly cruel.
I've seen this done before on a very, very dangerous horse. Made life a bit easier for the owner and the vet certainly appreciated it whilst they were sorting the poor mares issues!

Thank you, i have considered this, but to be honest, although it would prevent him biting, he could still lunge at me and knock me over again and i think it would stress him out/piss him off more xx