Dangerous / aggressive horse - advice needed?!

[motherof2beasts!]

I would consider a second opinion from another vet, usually a bute trial is one of the first steps, can’t believe they haven’t considered it after all this time.

With mine a bute trial was the first step and he improved a lot after 2 days of bute meaning pain related , then went on with full investigations. He had a range of chronic conditions which were degenerative . If no different on bute then it is either behavioural or neurological , neither of which you can do much more than you have about

what exactly do you feed him?

 

[happyhorse978]

My heart goes out to you, you could be describing my mare's behaviour a couple of years back now. But in her case, although she had always been a feisty typical mare with her own opinion she was never remotely dangerous, her sudden change in behaviour was literally overnight scaled up to totally unpredictable and downright lethal.

I walked across the field and stood beside her to put her headcollar on, she looked rather odd as I approached her, almost like she was in a trance and didn't even see me walking towards her . As I reached up to put it on, she reared up directly at me, flailing her hooves at me with ears pinned back, squealed and then flew off at a flat out gallop kicking out at me as she went.

Long story short and many thousands of euro and time with the vet later and quite sometime with lulls of her normal self and then very sudden very dangerous attacks we got to the bottom of it all. My vet would not even risk travelling her to the horsepital he regarded her as so dangerous even if he sedated her. He was not happy with me handling her and we were very close to PTS as every test under the sun was coming back either something not quite right or totally normal. It did seems as though brain tumour was the only possible cause left.

Fortunately just before the decision was made he went to a conference in the UK and spoke to some specialists and showed them all her results and what he had tried so far. It transpired she had in fact at some point picked up Lymes disease, and her symptoms did occur in a few equine cases that were not readily recognised at initial presentation or initial bloods. So she was treated, a long and hard treatment but she very slowly improved, her bloods were also improving, although still now not great at times. But she is very well in herself 4 years later happily retired in her field with her donkeys.

She does still have the odd trance like behaviour, but much more low key and we just leave her alone until she seems to be back with us, she has never been aggressive to us since. But the only people I allow to handle her is my vet, my farrier and my son, just in case. Even if I could ride I dont think I would risk riding her again, apart from now being a little stiff from time to time, my vet agrees that a sudden trance or explosion out on the road can't be ruled out and would be very risky for all concerned.

I do hope you can find an answer, but if not I would not hesitate to PTS, if Dolly's behaviour had not improved dramatically after the treatment for Lymes that was to be the outcome for everyone's safety and her very obvious distress.

Gosh, that is amazing you managed to find the cause!! Did she look well throughout the time when she had lymes disease?

thankyou so much, I really am heartbroken as he is my best friend, and i really do enjoy his company when he is not being aggressive, he has such a character and thats what is making this harder, but i am trying to be sensible and if he is suffering then i know what the right thing to do is xx

 

[happyhorse978]

I would consider a second opinion from another vet, usually a bute trial is one of the first steps, can’t believe they haven’t considered it after all this time.

With mine a bute trial was the first step and he improved a lot after 2 days of bute meaning pain related , then went on with full investigations. He had a range of chronic conditions which were degenerative . If no different on bute then it is either behavioural or neurological , neither of which you can do much more than you have about

what exactly do you feed him?

Thank you , he has been under a couple of different vets throughout this - i was thinking of whether this could be neurological but never had experience of this before so not really sure what is is!
He is a good doer so is literally just on a good quality fibre diet ! Luckily he doesnt need a load of hard feed piling into him xx

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Gosh, that is amazing you managed to find the cause!! Did she look well throughout the time when she had lymes disease?

Yes she did look pretty much her normal self initially, although she is a sweet itch horse so often irritable in the summer time with the midges so very possibly I may have missed early signs of her behaviour becoming unusually unacceptable. I had thought her a bit lazy and grumpy out riding which is very out of character now I look back. She did however look on and off mildly lame from time to time during the course of her illness and slowly became very dull in herself and lack lustre if you know what I mean, very depressed almost.

She looks fantastic now on all her herbs and supplements, although her joints are still affected from time to time but I will settle for that. She gave me a good few years of great fun riding and I am very fortunate to be able to have retired her and love just having her around still. I do understand that is not possible for everyone to do though.

It is more common than most people seem to realise. But most vets for some reason seem to feel it isn't an issue in Ireland and will only consider it reluctantly when all else has failed. I was contacted last year by someone a few hours from me who's horse had also eventually been diagnosed with Lyme's and was also showing very aggressive behaviour. Unfortunately that eventual outcome was not as fortunate as we had.

 

[happyhorse978]

Yes she did look pretty much her normal self initially, although she is a sweet itch horse so often irritable in the summer time with the midges so very possibly I may have missed early signs of her behaviour becoming unusually unacceptable. I had thought her a bit lazy and grumpy out riding which is very out of character now I look back. She did however look on and off mildly lame from time to time during the course of her illness and slowly became very dull in herself and lack lustre if you know what I mean, very depressed almost.

She looks fantastic now on all her herbs and supplements, although her joints are still affected from time to time but I will settle for that. She gave me a good few years of great fun riding and I am very fortunate to be able to have retired her and love just having her around still. I do understand that is not possible for everyone to do though.

It is more common than most people seem to realise. But most vets for some reason seem to feel it isn't an issue in Ireland and will only consider it reluctantly when all else has failed. I was contacted last year by someone a few hours from me who's horse had also eventually been diagnosed with Lyme's and was also showing very aggressive behaviour. Unfortunately that eventual outcome was not as fortunate as we had.

That is really interesting! I am glad your girl pulled through xx

 

[motherof2beasts!]

Thank you , he has been under a couple of different vets throughout this - i was thinking of whether this could be neurological but never had experience of this before so not really sure what is is!
He is a good doer so is literally just on a good quality fibre diet ! Luckily he doesnt need a load of hard feed piling into him xx

Once you have bute trialled you’ll know if he’s in pain then it could only really be behavioural or neurological. I think if that’s the case then it’s probably kindest to PTS as you can’t fix neurological. What does he do when others go into the field to get their horses?

 

[happyhorse978]

Once you have bute trialled you’ll know if he’s in pain then it could only really be behavioural or neurological. I think if that’s the case then it’s probably kindest to PTS as you can’t fix neurological. What does he do when others go into the field to get their horses?

Thank you, he is fine with things like that x

 

[Phoenix/Max]

Hi, I'm so sorry you are going through this, and thank you so much for caring for your horse. It definately sounds as if there is a pain factor which is causing the aggression, it sounds like he has been screaming for a long period of time, even before you got him and he now feels that he is able to express himself more with you. There are a couple of things that do come to mind, and as you mentioned about his rug, have you looked at or discussed a possible issue with the wither area, spine area at the base of his neck, problems in this area can go undetected, but can still be very painful. He may have fallen whilst racing or even in the field. Having a thermal imaging will help as this will pinpoint any hot spots, which may be the source. I would certainly talk to your vet about doing a bute or danilon trial, but hit it hard. If it is pain related you will find out pretty quickly. Well done for detecting the ulcers.
I would like to say Thank You for caring.

 

[Hackback]

I very much doubt he’s had tumours for years, how old is he ? Does he look well ?

A friend had a horse who had been 'difficult' all his life interspersed with totally random brief episodes like the OP describes. After all sorts of investigations finding nothing they eventually went for a full body MRI when he was found to have bone tumours all over his body. He must have had them for years - and yes he looked fab - and been in a considerable amount of pain.

Not saying that's what's wrong with your horse OP, it could be one or more of many things. It's just so hard when you can't find a reason. Good luck.

 

[happyhorse978]

Hi, I'm so sorry you are going through this, and thank you so much for caring for your horse. It definately sounds as if there is a pain factor which is causing the aggression, it sounds like he has been screaming for a long period of time, even before you got him and he now feels that he is able to express himself more with you. There are a couple of things that do come to mind, and as you mentioned about his rug, have you looked at or discussed a possible issue with the wither area, spine area at the base of his neck, problems in this area can go undetected, but can still be very painful. He may have fallen whilst racing or even in the field. Having a thermal imaging will help as this will pinpoint any hot spots, which may be the source. I would certainly talk to your vet about doing a bute or danilon trial, but hit it hard. If it is pain related you will find out pretty quickly. Well done for detecting the ulcers.
I would like to say Thank You for caring.

Thank you so much for being so lovely xxx I will discuss it all with my vet thank you x

 

[happyhorse978]

A friend had a horse who had been 'difficult' all his life interspersed with totally random brief episodes like the OP describes. After all sorts of investigations finding nothing they eventually went for a full body MRI when he was found to have bone tumours all over his body. He must have had them for years - and yes he looked fab - and been in a considerable amount of pain.

Not saying that's what's wrong with your horse OP, it could be one or more of many things. It's just so hard when you can't find a reason. Good luck.

Oh no, bless him

thank you so much xx

 

[ycbm]

Once you have bute trialled you’ll know if he’s in pain then it could only really be behavioural or neurological. I think if that’s the case then it’s probably kindest to PTS as you can’t fix neurological. What does he do when others go into the field to get their horses?

A bute trial can rule in pain, if it works, but it doesn't rule out pain if it doesn't work. Back pain in particular doesn't always, I'm told, respond to bute.
.

 

[Ali27]

Oh god! Your poor horse and poor you! Just so lucky that he has got you to hopefully help get him sorted and not someone who just thinks he is being naughty. Definitely sounds pain related and I hope you can get to the bottom of it! ?
Might be worth posting on the PSSM Facebook page and seeing if there are any flags in his breeding as I know PSSM 2 can be found in TBs.

 

[happyhorse978]

Oh god! Your poor horse and poor you! Just so lucky that he has got you to hopefully help get him sorted and not someone who just thinks he is being naughty. Definitely sounds pain related and I hope you can get to the bottom of it! ?
Might be worth posting on the PSSM Facebook page and seeing if there are any flags in his breeding as I know PSSM 2 can be found in TBs.

Thank you so much x

 

[Quigleyandme]

I really feel for you OP. You are clearly a very dedicated owner trying to do your very best to get to the bottom of your horse’s issues and I really admire you for that. This is a bit woo woo but have you considered an animal communicator? Some perfectly sensible, rational and not the least bit naive people have told me of remarkable transformations which they can’t otherwise explain.

 

[happyhorse978]

I really feel for you OP. You are clearly a very dedicated owner trying to do your very best to get to the bottom of your horse’s issues and I really admire you for that. This is a bit woo woo but have you considered an animal communicator? Some perfectly sensible, rational and not the least bit naive people have told me of remarkable transformations which they can’t otherwise explain.

thank you so much that really means a lot! I have tried an animal communicator who did say some things which make sense, however some of it are things i have ruled out! Thank you very much though

 

[MissTyc]

I really feel for you. My friend had one who behaved similar. Thankfully only 14.2hh which was dangerous enough. He turned out to have ECVM which I believe they can now test for in live animals? Back then it was only identifiable post-mortem. Just another thought, sorry it's not a cheerful one. Sometimes answers are important. But I will say my friend wished she'd had hers put down a year earlier as his last year was not a happy one. Full of tests and bute trials, false hopes, and sadness

 

[PeterNatt]

happyhorse978. I am so sorry to read your sad post about your horse. My suggestion would be to send him to a specialist equine hospital such as Rossdales in Newmarket and see if they can come up with a diagnosis as ito what is causing his aggresive behaviour.

 

[happyhorse978]

I really feel for you. My friend had one who behaved similar. Thankfully only 14.2hh which was dangerous enough. He turned out to have ECVM which I believe they can now test for in live animals? Back then it was only identifiable post-mortem. Just another thought, sorry it's not a cheerful one. Sometimes answers are important. But I will say my friend wished she'd had hers put down a year earlier as his last year was not a happy one. Full of tests and bute trials, false hopes, and sadness

Thank you so much. I feel awful for him having to go through different investigations etc , I just want him to be happy, but I just feel he is in significant pain somewhere so may have to end his suffering which will kill me but if it’s the right thing for him then that’s all that matters xx

 

[happyhorse978]

happyhorse978. I am so sorry to read your sad post about your horse. My suggestion would be to send him to a specialist equine hospital such as Rossdales in Newmarket and see if they can come up with a diagnosis as ito what is causing his aggresive behaviour.

Thank you , unfortunately he’s taken a sudden dislike to travelling and will rear vertical and smash around in the box , so there’s no way I could get him all the way to rossdales etc otherwise I would. He had to be sedated for a 15 min journey when we moved yards and that was bad enough. Another reason which makes me feel like this is pain based as he was always good to travel. Thankyou though x

 

[ycbm]

I would never pass him on, because I can only imagine what would happen to him and I would never put him through that, and also i would not risk someone elses safety.
If i cannot find any pain/have any improvement in the near future, i will do the kindest thing for him and let him go peacefully with my vet. I am just trying to do everything I can, i understand the risks i am taking, i dont let anyone else handle him, but i really am running out of options so that is why i have posted on here, as i do know what the last option is i am afraid and i am really struggling to get my head around it. I think if i knew he was in pain, which i do believe he is, it would make the decision a lot clearer in my mind.

I think that a horse which you have to sedate to get a rug on is in such significant physical pain or mental trauma that if you can't find a reason/relief very soon, this will be the right option, especially as he can't now travel for the investigations this would probably need to get to the bottom of it.

It's a dreadful situation to be in, I have been there once with a horse with head fractures, who might or might not have come right if I had waited, but I could not put him through any more pain while we waited to find out.

If the bute trial modifies his behaviour at all, I would get ECVM C6/7 x rays to start with, as described above, it's extremely common in TBs. If neither bute nor hind gut medication does anything, I'm so sorry but I'd call it a day for his sake as further investigations are going to prolong his pain and, I suspect, with little hope of ever finding a permanent solution for it.

Again, this is a terrible situation to be in, you clearly love this horse, I really feel for you.
.

 

[happyhorse978]

I think that a horse which you have to sedate to get a rug on is in such significant physical pain or mental trauma that if you can't find a reason/relief very soon, this will be the right option, especially as he can't now travel for the investigations this would probably need to get to the bottom of it.

It's a dreadful situation to be in, I have been there once with a horse with head fractures, who might or might not have come right if I had waited, but I could not put him through any more pain while we waited to find out.

If the bute trial modifies his behaviour at all, I would get ECVM C6/7 x rays to start with, as described above, it's extremely common in TBs. If neither bute nor hind gut medication does anything, I'm so sorry but I'd call it a day for his sake as further investigations are going to prolong his pain and, I suspect, with little hope of ever finding a permanent solution for it.

Again, this is a terrible situation to be in, you clearly love this horse, I really feel for you.
.

Thankyou so much that is really helpful xx

 

[Melody Grey]

I had a similar situation a few years back and PTS my aggressive mare. Knowing what I know now, I’d treat for hindgut ulcers and consider PSSM. I’m not sure whether you’re in a position to engage in a lameness work up or have done before, but I’d suggest that if you manage to get him into a more amenable mindset you x- ray from head to tail. I had to draw the line with mine, I was worn out and out of cash but that’s where I’d go if I had my time with her again. Good luck OP, it’s so hard. X

 

[happyhorse978]

I had a similar situation a few years back and PTS my aggressive mare. Knowing what I know now, I’d treat for hindgut ulcers and consider PSSM. I’m not sure whether you’re in a position to engage in a lameness work up or have done before, but I’d suggest that if you manage to get him into a more amenable mindset you x- ray from head to tail. I had to draw the line with mine, I was worn out and out of cash but that’s where I’d go if I had my time with her again. Good luck OP, it’s so hard. X

Thankyou so much. I’m so sorry to hear about your mare. Unfortunately I don’t think he would cope with a lameness work up , he is too unpredictable to be around and I imagine all the faffing will only exacerbate matters. He’s started a Danilon trial this evening for the next 10 days or so so we will see if that improves matters. If not, I will have to face the facts and be realistic on how much this is all fair on him xx

 

[Melody Grey]

Just a thought- if your vet is onboard with a pain relief trial, might they be able to administer something that can’t irritate the stomach? Like IV metacam? (I’m not a vet obviously, just wondering whether that could take the potential for ulcers to be irritated away?)

 

[Melody Grey]

Just a thought- if your vet is onboard with a pain relief trial, might they be able to administer something that can’t irritate the stomach? Like IV metacam? (I’m not a vet obviously, just wondering whether that could take the potential for ulcers to be irritated away?)

There is also a drug used in dogs but also increasingly in horses which works at brain level so only requires a tiny amount and could limit irritation? My vet suggested it for one of mine but we went another route… Gabapentin possibly?!

I had a lameness work up done on a horse using sedivet because he was so stressed by the environment of the vet hospital (horse with very limited life experience). Maybe worth mentioning?
not in any way promising an answer here, just racking my brains for what I’ve learnt through my unfortunate yet large amount of vet referrals! ?‍

 

[Velcrobum]

No suggestions but am sending you a virtual hug.

I PTS a never in training TB who became more and more unpredictable behaviour wise and when ridden. I understand what you are going through.

 

[motherof2beasts!]

Also you have probably exhausted all this but I found premier equine super so calm made a much bigger difference than anything else I tried!

 

[ROMANY 1959]

A friend had a grey mare, was known to be difficult in stable, and turned out. Sign on the stable door to not go into stable without owner about, nor walk through her field. Behavioural trainer tried best, vets found nothing wrong after spending ££££ on her, she reared up in the stable so high hit head on beam, was knocked out for 10 min.. we thought she was dead, when back on feet was took to vet hospital for extensive rays and tests. A brain tumour was found, behind an eye, she was PTS within the week, it was pressing on optic nerve causing great pain. Nothing could be done. She had been in my friends ownership for 18 months, after passing a vet examination on purchase. Vet said may not even have discovered it then, had she not knocked herself stupid. Cant imagine
the pain she had.

 

[Fools Motto]

My only input would be to x-ray his head. I know a horse whose behaviour changed drastically over night, from being calm and accepting a rider walk, trot, canter, easy chilled hacks, to literally turning himself inside out (injuring rider) - yes he was young at 4, but the behaviour changed so suddenly. Vet called, all usual checks clear, and at last resort x-rayed his head - ideally checking for teeth issues, only to find he had fractured his skull in several places and the pain must have been beyond imaginable. Probably self inflicted fall in the field doing zoomies. There were no outward signs, it just suddenly happened, and took a while to find. Glad to report the horse is ok, its taken 2 years now, but owner is aware and taking things very slowly. Whether or not the horse will have the competition future that was planned is perhaps unlikely, but only time will tell.
Saying that, your lovely horse sounds like it's beyond the point where it could return to being safely handled, and although usually there is a reason, sometimes, just sometimes an answer will never be found. You are precious and for the sake of 'a horse' please do the right thing, he isn't a happy chap and i'm sure he will appreciate it however hard this is for you.