Dangerous horse help

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I would like someone like that to come but I don’t have the thousands to spend on him as I have others to keep and bills to pay. He can stay a field or ornament for now but it’s not fun to have a horse you can’t do anything nice with or for and I’m at the end of my tether and feeling rubbish about it all. Plus if I get hurt I don’t have anyone that can care for them so I don’t want to end up in that situation.
I’ve tried all the recommended desensitisation training but he never makes any improvement. He had a meltdown about a clicker and sometimes it’s not worth the battle.

This isn't a criticism but I feel that you need to change your mindset. Your idea of doing something nice for him and his idea of something nice are completely different at this point, in order to get him onside, you need to accept his likes and dislikes and work with him, rather than against him. I have never used one of the well-known behaviourists but in your position, I would try to get someone like Michael Peace to at least assess him and give you some pointers as to the best way to deal with him.
Please don't set up any more clashes, keep yourself safe.

 

[Spoiled cob]

It sounds like you dont like this horse anymore, and those vibes projected at any animal, they sense, and will react off of.

It sounds like you need to treat him as feral - start with the basics of groundwork training, being safe just standing in your space etc..expect nothing from him, just being calm in your space, and you calm too. Build from there.

He’s not the horse you thought you were buying, cant do what you imagined, he was put to grass and now is bolshier than ever at being told to do anything, understandably. The problems weren’t corrected when they arose, and as a reward for bad behaviour he gets put in a field, which is what he wants - so he's learning from you bad behaviour gets him thrown in the field to be *free to do as he wants *without human interference.

He wont train himself out in the field - and field time doesnt wipe their memory so you can one day suddenly do an activity hes shown before he’s very scared of (hose down).

I’d seriously get in a professional trainer with him now, as you sound out of your depth and scared of him, which is understandable as horses are large heavy animals and when they throw a tantrum (for whatever reason) safety of all can sometimes be at risk. But i would never endorse or encourage anyone PTS any animal with recent learned behaviour problems, that has not even seen a series of professionals - vet/physio/trainer.

This horse was hackable by you, then deteriorated for some reason. He’s not born ‘bad’. Was able to be ridden even. He’s therefore trainable.

A trainer is the first call i’d make, so they can assess him, as they often deal with problem behaviours all the time. Some things we cant do ourselves and have to out-source help from professionals. Your methods arent working, so a fresh pair of eyes can often be hugely helpful.

Whatever diet he’s on - strip it back to basics - grass/hay/haylage - forage and basic powder mix pelleted minerals/water.

I just cut-out a basic mineral mix from my horses diet as it was an in-fill as stock low from the usual one i import - within the week they became more ‘scatty’ due to soy carrier ingredient used for pellets.
Cut out alfalfa/soy/cooked cereals/copra/beet etc….see how he is if he is on any of these ingredients currently - many horses on this forum owned have sensitivity to these common horse food ingredients.

He wasn’t just put to grass he comes in every night and out every morning so he’s handled and no after nearly getting flattened on multiple occasions I don’t like him much anymore. He’s only on haylage/grass no hard food so nothing to strip back.
He would still be hackable but it can’t be consistent as his feet either fall apart or it’s not fair to due to the flies and his sweet itch.
I posted because I was at the end of my tether after nearly getting flattened again for trying to do something nice for him.
Wish I hadn’t bothered to post now.
I am not an idiot and I have had help with him but there aren’t any improvements and I don’t have a bottomless pit of money to keep throwing at the situation.
No he isn’t what I thought I was buying but all I ever wanted/expected was to be able to hack out, wash him off after in summer and clip to ride in winter, in the grand scheme of things it isnt much to hope for. I’m the longest home he’s had so the issues predate me but others have covered it up and sold him on and I won’t do that.

 

[Winters100]

He is not very old, so it seems a shame to have him PTS if he is fixable. Do you perhaps know any very experienced person who might like to take him for a nominal sum as a 'project'? Since you are hacking him it sounds as if he is ok to ride. Once he has been thoroughly checked, and the bucking can for sure be put down to behavior rather than pain, then it is likely that a professional could correct this. I appreciate that you don't have the funds to spend on trainers to get him right, but maybe there is some other solution. Of course if he truly is dangerous then PTS would probably be the best option, but it sounds more as if you are an ill matched pair.

Just to add to this as I saw your other post that you would not like to sell him on while he is dangerous to wash and clip. A very experienced home may accept these things and feel that they can work with them, the key would be to ask for a nominal price to the right home, and of course to disclose everything. There are also other solutions, for example I know one lady who is extremely experienced, but found herself horseless due to financial problems post covid. She has taken on 2 horses to 'educate', 1 a bolshy 10 year old who has learned that he can push his owner around, and the other a youngster who was an ill advised purchase by the not very experienced owner. The deal she has is that the owner will pay for their keep and for her costs of transportation to the stable, but she will work with them, make them sellable, and will be entitled to keep 50% of the proceeds. She appears to be making good progress with them, maybe you could advertise and see if there is anyone who would be suitable for a similar arrangement.

 

[Muddywellies]

Is he a rig?
Work/food ratio
Work variety / boredom
Consider your own handling of him - do you set and strictly enforce boundaries

I'd consider the above and then start working him with a zero tolerance attitude. He's got away with the behaviour for too long. You may wish to send him to a professional for a few months where he will have routine and discipline, but you have to continue the same regime when he's back. Or if you've just got too much horse, send him on sales livery for schooling and selling on.

 

[Spoiled cob]

This isn't a criticism but I feel that you need to change your mindset. Your idea of doing something nice for him and his idea of something nice are completely different at this point, in order to get him onside, you need to accept hi likes and dislikes and work with him, rather than against him. I have never used one of the well-known behaviourists but in your position, I would try to get someone like Michael Peace to at least assess him and give you some pointers as to the best way to deal with him.
Please don't set up any more clashes, keep yourself safe.

I shouldn’t have done that today in hindsight but it’s not nice to have a hot sweaty horse in this weather and not be able to do anything for him unlike the others.

 

[cauda equina]

I had Michael Peace out to one of mine; he certainly didn't charge thousands
It sounds as if you'd like to call it a day with this horse, but are looking for 'permission' to do so
You certainly don't need permission from anyone else, but if it would reassure you to have another opinion (and it's only worth getting if you are prepared to be disagreed with) then someone like MP would be money well spent imo

 

[Spoiled cob]

Is he a rig?
Work/food ratio
Work variety / boredom
Consider your own handling of him - do you set and strictly enforce boundaries

I'd consider the above and then start working him with a zero tolerance attitude. He's got away with the behaviour for too long. You may wish to send him to a professional for a few months where he will have routine and discipline, but you have to continue the same regime when he's back. Or if you've just got too much horse, send him on sales livery for schooling and selling on.

Not a rig, no hard food, I do have boundaries and zero tolerance of it but he goes into a blind panic if anything sets him off. He’s not too much for me but I would happily sell him on but not with him being dangerous to wash and clip etc and with sweet itch and hoof issues he’s not going to be top of someone’s list.
I can’t afford to send him for schooling I have others and bills to pay and thousands on that isn’t possible.

 

[Spoiled cob]

I had Michael Peace out to one of mine; he certainly didn't charge thousands
It sounds as if you'd like to call it a day with this horse, but are looking for 'permission' to do so
You certainly don't need permission from anyone else, but if it would reassure you to have another opinion (and it's only worth getting if you are prepared to be disagreed with) then someone like MP would be money well spent imo

I’ve looked it up the visit plus mileage and vat would be well over 500 and I can’t imagine one visit would be enough

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I shouldn’t have done that today in hindsight but it’s not nice to have a hot sweaty horse in this weather and not be able to do anything for him unlike the others.

That's what I meant about changing your mindset, he obviously prefers being hot and sweaty to being washed off. Successful (however you define that word) horse-keepers work with the horse's likes and dislikes, thinking outside the box to use what the horse likes to get him to do what the handler/rider wants.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I would like someone like that to come but I don’t have the thousands to spend on him as I have others to keep and bills to pay. He can stay a field or ornament for now but it’s not fun to have a horse you can’t do anything nice with or for and I’m at the end of my tether and feeling rubbish about it all. Plus if I get hurt I don’t have anyone that can care for them so I don’t want to end up in that situation.
I’ve tried all the recommended desensitisation training but he never makes any improvement. He had a meltdown about a clicker and sometimes it’s not worth the battle.

What type of training have you tried doing with him? Because 'desensitisation' can make a fearful horse worse if it's done through flooding or 'Parelli' type training where pressure is escalated. It sounds like he is trigger-stacking and this is causing him to explode.

First of all though, before you can go any further, you HAVE to rule out pain. You say that he has been checked, but also imply that you could go further but cannot afford to/are not willing to? If you horse has chronic pain, it is game over. No amount of training is going to make him a happy or safe horse. Imagine how you would feel if you were in pain all of the time, even if it was low level pain? You would constantly be on edge. The hooves sound like they could be causing him some discomfort at all times.

Once pain has been completely ruled out and you are sure he is physically healthy, you can then look at improving his mental wellbeing so that you can both have a positive relationship. Management is just as important as training - is he on suitable grazing, does he have companionship, does he have enrichment to keep his mind occupied? And so on.

Then I would personally hire a behaviourist to help get you started. You don't have to spend 1000's - 4 sessions might set you back £200 or so, but they will make all the difference. I would be looking for someone with the qualifications who you know will genuinely understand horse behaviour and body language - an ABTC registered trainer for example. Someone who will take a gentle and ethical approach towards helping him become trusting and confident again.

I'm not sure what part of the UK you're in but you can search for Animal Behaviour & Training Council Practitioners here:

https://abtc.org.uk/practitioners/

 

[Spoiled cob]

No need for anymore replies I obviously shouldn’t have posted, I was fed up and angry that yet again despite hard work over the years He wouldn’t let me do a simple thing to make him feel better in this hot weather. I’m tired of having a horse that I pay a lot of money to keep being a danger.

he has sweet itch yet I can’t do anything to make him feel better without a drama and putting myself in danger.

I don’t have a bottomless pit of spare money to throw at the issue unlike a lot of people on here obviously.

I am trying to be responsible and not just sell him on.

I was just hoping that other people might understand how I felt, dealing with this all the time is draining and it makes me sad that I can’t do anything for him.

 

[ihatework]

I would lay money he is just an ignorant bolshy cob that hasn’t been done right and needs a change in management. People think cobs are easy, some can be wilful toads. If so, an experienced trainer will sort it out in time although the probability of him reverting if their regular input is removed is probably quite high.

I don’t know enough about hoof wall separation to know the long term impact on soundness / ridden potential. If shoeing would help then most horses can be trained to be shod.

Ultimately though, you will have to invest not insignificant money into training and vets if you stand a chance of a pleasant and happy horse. There is no shame in saying you are not prepared to do that and to give him a dignified end. Just do it quietly and only rely on people you know in real life who won’t be judgemental

 

[cauda equina]

I’ve looked it up the visit plus mileage and vat would be well over 500 and I can’t imagine one visit would be enough

It probably would
He wouldn't fix the horse for you, but could probably tell you if the horse was worth persevering with, and if so teach you the tools to improve him

 

[Tiddlypom]

What jumps out at me is that you've had this horse for 6 years.

Has he always behaved like this?

It might well be a red herring, but intense dislike of cold water (the hose) is one symptom of PSSM, and one that my mare showed very plainly (ears pinned and teeth showing) - the cold makes the bum muscles go into a tight spasm.

 

[SEL]

He won't be the first or last to bog off when a hose appears!

If he's bolshy then catch him in a dually or stick a bridle on him. Did that for a good couple of years with my mare and now my non horsey OH leads her in quietly. The trouble with sticking them in a field is you don't improve their behaviour. Twice a day, every single day, that mare was brought in and did "something" whether that was trying to pick a foot out, grooming, basic bodywork etc. I used to prep the tie up area in advance so there was a haynet and a lead rope already attached so I could clip her on and get out of the way if a strop was imminent.

It's a long old haul changing behaviour and if your heart isn't in it then that's fair enough.

 

[AmyMay]

I would lay money he is just an ignorant bolshy cob that hasn’t been done right and needs a change in management. People think cobs are easy, some can be wilful toads. If so, an experienced trainer will sort it out in time although the probability of him reverting if their regular input is removed is probably quite high.

I don’t know enough about hoof wall separation to know the long term impact on soundness / ridden potential. If shoeing would help then most horses can be trained to be shod.

Ultimately though, you will have to invest not insignificant money into training and vets if you stand a chance of a pleasant and happy horse. There is no shame in saying you are not prepared to do that and to give him a dignified end. Just do it quietly and only rely on people you know in real life who won’t be judgemental

This.

 

[Regandal]

How much grass is in his field? My horse goes loopy on what would be considered ‘good grass’, he’s very sensitive to sugar.

 

[Hallo2012]

there is no miracle answer.

its time and money and training-time and money to check for pain and time and money and training to instill some basic manners.

if you cannot provide those then PTS will be kinder as currently he is not going to find a good home with so many issues and *cant do that* items on his CV!

 

[Regandal]

A relatively cheap way to rule out/in PSSM is to give high dose vitamin E for a few weeks. I think 8 - 10,000 iu’s per day is recommended.

 

[Cortez]

No need for anymore replies I obviously shouldn’t have posted, I was fed up and angry that yet again despite hard work over the years He wouldn’t let me do a simple thing to make him feel better in this hot weather. I’m tired of having a horse that I pay a lot of money to keep being a danger.

he has sweet itch yet I can’t do anything to make him feel better without a drama and putting myself in danger.

I don’t have a bottomless pit of spare money to throw at the issue unlike a lot of people on here obviously.

I am trying to be responsible and not just sell him on.

I was just hoping that other people might understand how I felt, dealing with this all the time is draining and it makes me sad that I can’t do anything for him.

Not liking the replies then? TBH you sound a bit petulant, and perhaps not the right personality or skill level to be dealing with this sort of horse. You have been offered a number of helpful solutions, the fact that none of them have included your preferred avenue of recourse is one you can ponder at your leisure.

 

[Shilasdair]

No need for anymore replies I obviously shouldn’t have posted, I was fed up and angry that yet again despite hard work over the years He wouldn’t let me do a simple thing to make him feel better in this hot weather. I’m tired of having a horse that I pay a lot of money to keep being a danger.

he has sweet itch yet I can’t do anything to make him feel better without a drama and putting myself in danger.

I don’t have a bottomless pit of spare money to throw at the issue unlike a lot of people on here obviously.

I am trying to be responsible and not just sell him on.

I was just hoping that other people might understand how I felt, dealing with this all the time is draining and it makes me sad that I can’t do anything for him.

I felt the need to reply anyway.

I'm going to swim against the tide here - and say maybe you should put him to sleep.

He has numerous health issues (sweet itch, hoof issues, etc), which are hard enough to manage in a cooperative patient, and impossible in something that also has behavioural issues, including aggression to other horses.

You could try a behaviourist/trainer if you wanted to reassure yourself that you had done absolutely everything - if you need to do that for you.

But - I think that you are being very responsible thinking about putting him to sleep rather than passing him on. There are many novice owners out there (you don't sound one of them) who think that if you just love an animal enough, everything will be ok. Some are even giving you advice on this thread - beware!

If I were you I'd maybe give him the summer retired at grass if he's happy enough, handling him as little as possible, and then PTS in the early autumn.

 

[Shilasdair]

Oh, and if you do want help finding a behaviourist - I'd ask Cortez for advice - she knows a lot about a lot!

 

[holeymoley]

In terms of the hoof issue- is it possible he has low grade laminitis rumbling along in the background? That could explain the white line seperating.

 

[Widgeon]

I know what it feels like being trapped in a situation with a seemingly healthy horse who you're frightened off for good reason. Knowing what I know now, I would probably work out a budget, talk it all over with your vet and then try to eliminate the most obvious possible causes of pain. Once that's done, assuming nothing's found (and it sounds like you've investigated various things already?) I'd send him away for a few weeks to a professional for assessment. If there's no apparent pain, and the pro doesn't feel there's a good chance he'll come right within a time and training plan you can manage and afford, then there's nothing wrong with PTS.

I had one who was similar in some ways; massive over reactions to all sorts of innocuous things until he was making me very unhappy. He was not fixable by the best professional I could find, and eventually it turned out that he may well have KS and have been in pain, so he's in a home as a companion now. Six years is a long time to persevere with a horse you clearly don't like or trust - I would make a plan and a budget with a view to ending the situation one way or another. This can't be doing your own mental health any good, as well as the risk of injury.

 

[nagblagger]

i have read the whole thread and can see all opinions...
SC you have a horse that you are now, rightly, scared off, it does take nerve to admit that on an open forum.
There are many experienced people on here that would give him a chance, if any of them offered to rehome him with the condition if they couldn't control him they would PTS, would you consider that?

 

[Arzada]

I get that you're feeling drained but some of this is the result of your own behaviour towards your horse. You really are taking absolutely no notice of him absolutely yelling at you. Clipping and grooming are the areas of conflict that can be totally avoided by not doing either. He doesn't find them 'nice' yet you for some reason are persisting in being nice treating him in a way that he cannot stand and he really couldn't make this any clearer other than going directly for you and still you don't listen.

 

[planete]

Two years ago I bought a small cob who was bad with the farrier and impossible to clip because I could not afford a perfect individual. He had meltdowns and was aggressive to the point of drawing blood when he bit you. I put it down to bad handling and training and set out to correct this bad behaviour. It did not work, in fact it got worse and I could have written your post at one point. Extensive vet examinations did not reveal any physical problems but the meltdowns and general tense attitude made me look at muscle myopathies. I put him on high doses of vitamin E and magnesium oxide. I also realised my way of training him was not working and I had to find a way of making friends with him. I tried to give him what he obviously liked. It started with me getting him out of the field just to take him hedgerow browsing and long grass cropping until he was happy to see me and come with me and I built up from there. He will never be an easy pony but he is now my friend and I am very slowly showing him he does not need to fight everything that comes his way. I got rid of three instructors and one farrier whose attitude put his back up (and mine). I do not clicker train but he has learnt any attempt on his part to 'try' for me is rewarded. I have concluded that he is actually extremely clever and you could say he is training me as much as I am training him but life for both of us has stopped being hideously stressful.

This is just my personal experience, I am sharing it in case it points a way forward but I am retired and have plenty of time and just enough money to throw at him if I think it is going to help. In other circumstances I would have tried to rehome as a companion but this may not be an option with these particular problems. And if I had not got anywhere after I changed my attitude I would have got a qualified behaviourist to give me their opinion. It helped me cope to think of him as somebody else's horse I was working with at one point so my emotions were not so involved and I could analyse my reactions and his to find triggers and possible ways to defuse them but I admit it is not a pleasure at that point, it is work!

Ps. Good post from nagblagger.

 

[Carrottom]

If you have time, watch a few of Steve Young Horsemanship videos on you tube. All it costs is your time. I'm not suggesting that you try his methods yourself, but they do show what a professional trainer can achieve in a short amount of time (hours rather than days).

 

[CMcC]

He wasn’t just put to grass he comes in every night and out every morning so he’s handled and no after nearly getting flattened on multiple occasions I don’t like him much anymore. He’s only on haylage/grass no hard food so nothing to strip back.
He would still be hackable but it can’t be consistent as his feet either fall apart or it’s not fair to due to the flies and his sweet itch.
I posted because I was at the end of my tether after nearly getting flattened again for trying to do something nice for him.
Wish I hadn’t bothered to post now.
I am not an idiot and I have had help with him but there aren’t any improvements and I don’t have a bottomless pit of money to keep throwing at the situation.
No he isn’t what I thought I was buying but all I ever wanted/expected was to be able to hack out, wash him off after in summer and clip to ride in winter, in the grand scheme of things it isnt much to hope for. I’m the longest home he’s had so the issues predate me but others have covered it up and sold him on and I won’t do that.

This post tells me your a pretty well decided to have the horse PTS. That is fine, he is difficult to handle (whether that is pain related or could be fixed with behavioural management/training.)
You have come on the forum I suspect to ask people to back your decision.It is your decision, if you are not looking for advice to improve the situation - and who knows, you might be right he is never going to accept the things you expect him to like and be grateful for. Take the decision your self, don’t get tetchy when people give you advice you don’t like.

 

[Shilasdair]

I get that you're feeling drained but some is the result of your own behaviour towards your horse. You really are taking absolutely no notice of him absolutely yelling at you. Clipping and grooming are the areas of conflict that can be totally avoided by not doing either. He doesn't find them 'nice' yet you for some reason are persisting in being nice treating him in a way that he cannot stand and he really couldn't make this any clearer other than going directly for you and still you don't listen.

If the worst that ever happens to a horse is that it gets hosed/clipped when it doesn't fancy it, it's leading a charmed life.
The one who should be making the decisions is the human, not the horse.