Dangerous horse help

[Shilasdair]

Just because you buy a horse, doesn't mean that you have to martyr yourself until it dies a natural death*.

And all those people who are saying 'Poor horse, it's in pain' - if you read the OP's posts, she's had him checked out, and vets don't agree with you.

In terms of 'bucking someone off is a pain response, poor horse'. Just no. Some horses will buck if they are in pain. Some will buck out of unchanneled enthusiasm. And some youngsters learn to buck to be naughty.
Let me explain.

Youngsters don't bend their hocks very well when first ridden- so the initial canter transitions tend to be achieved by the horse throwing its bum in the air (bucking) to bring its hind legs through from a trot to a canter gait. If the rider isn't competent, this can mean they fall off - horse is instantly rewarded for the behaviour and learns to do it again...and again...

* And I speak as someone who retired my two (not through choice) at a very early age and have chosen to care for them for a very long time - mine however are generally helpful and pleasant to be around.

 

[Winters100]

Well, no there isn't always, sometimes horses just like to get you off

Not habitually. If its a regular occurrence then there's an underlying issue, be that pain, lack of education, too much feed etc.[/QUOTE]

I don't really agree with this, as I had a mare who, once she had discovered that she could get me off, did so on a regular basis. We did many investigations, nothing found, and eventually I sold her to a pro for a pittance with full disclosure. She went on to be one of his best horses, quite simply she needed a better and stronger rider.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

There have been a number if threads on here pointing up the necessity for far more extensive vet investigations than a cursory once over at vaccination time. OP says that her vet has only done visual checks, if I have understood the posts correctly. And I can think if many horses, described on here that have eventually been diagnosed with hock issues after problems, such as bucking, on a surface, while everything was fine when hacking.

 

[honetpot]

I don't understand why you are persisting with doing things to him that you know he hates, when they are not necessary. Washing him would NOT be on my list of priorities with this horse. Has a vet seen him?, If so when?

I have to agree with this. You have obviously put in a lot of effort, but neither of you are getting any benefit, and I think you need to take a step back, because a part from you being hurt, over time you are going to become more resentful.
I had a femi-feral brood mare on breeding loan, and she had obviously been badly traumatised at some point in her life, and her way of escape was either to run away, or if she couldn't to shut down, she would stand fixed and tremble. She lived in a group and was actually easy to look after, and although some days I could stand and stroke her neck, she didn't need or want people.
In the short term you have to break the cycle, and give your self space to think, continuing doing the same thing isn't working for either of you.
You need a good horse vet, and depending on how much budget you have, I would a serious discussion about how you manage what you see as problems, and work through the list. If the skin irritation and HWSD are the most pressing start with those and work out if there is a long term affordable treatment, and testing.
There are things you can not fix, I have had at least three with separation anxiety, and you learn to work around them, and the classic sign is doing anything to get away, even if that included mowing you over.
Its hot, the grounds hard, I would give your self three weeks to sort something out, without doing much with him. You have a lot of different opinions, and ideas, and only you can work out what is workable in your situation.

 

[dorsetladette]

There are worse things to happen to a horse than PTS. Life is short and having horses should be enjoyable (at least some of the time) for both parties. Horse doesn't sound particularly happy and neither do you OP.


There would be no shame in giving the horse a nice few weeks in the field and quietly PTS before the weather changes.

A couple of easy/low cost/non invasive tests mentioned by others wouldn't hurt while he has his 'few weeks' and if there is improvement weather it be his feet or his general demeaner (or even you find a new wave of enthusiasm for him) then he's bought himself a reprieve.

Take care of yourself (physically and emotionally).

 

[Oreo&Amy]

I have a 13 yr 15.3 cob, he was ok when I tried him, hadn’t been in proper work but we hacked out and he was ok. I didn’t mind putting the work in but once we got him home it became apparent he had some issues. I thought I could work with him but we just never make any progress. He has a complete breakdown if you try to clip him, desensitisation hasn’t worked. Same breakdown if you try to wash him. He would happily flatten you. He has sweet itch and the farrier believes he has hoof wall separation disease, he’s trimmed monthly and has only recently started behaving for the farrier. He can’t be shod and no hoof boots will fit him. He hates being schooled and will attempt to buck you off if pushed, it’s definitely a learned behaviour. We were hacking but obviously the condition of his feet limit this so I’ve just left him as a field ornament. Today I attempted to wash him off as it’s so hot and he was sweating and he completely lost it again, each time I’m just escaping from being badly hurt and I’m reaching the point where I’m thinking it would be better to PTS before something happens. I know I should just leave him alone but it’s sad when a quick wash for example would make him feel so much better. I’ve given him 6 years but I’m getting fed up of paying for everything for a horse I can’t do literally anything with. Does anyone have any experience of PTS for behaviour issues?

I hate to become part of a mob vote but it immediately became obvious to me that this cob is in pain. You need to get a whole raft of professional help, including a professional equine behavioural specialist, an equine vet preferably specialising in pain, an equine physio, a trainer, a saddle fitter, and potentially a different farrier.Additionally until these professionals have examined and analysed your cob, I would stop all ridden work. Have you lunged him? Maybe turn him away for a while; he sounds traumatised and at the very last is in severe discomfort. So don’t keep trying to school him; repeating the same behaviour and expecting a different result is the definition of madness! I’m not trying to be mean and im sure it’s hard reading all these comments, and I’m not saying you don’t care but if you do care you will listen to the advice given on here. Best of luck and report back when you have worked with professionals whose job it is to help equines in situations like these.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

If he doesn’t accept the hose, then don’t. I haven’t got around to desensitising my ex-feral to the hose so I use a bucket and a sponge if I really need to wash him down.

Quite one of my mares hates the hose has a mental so we just use bucket and sponge, not ideal whn bathing but beats both horse and human getting injured.

 

[Regandal]

You need to get a whole raft of professional help

I’m not sure that the op has unlimited funds to throw at this horse, and a couple of those you mention would probably struggle to get near him.

 

[Oreo&Amy]

I’m not sure that the op has unlimited funds to throw at this horse, and a couple of those you mention would probably struggle to get near him.

True- but insurance should cover at least some of the cost. Horses are expensive as we all know!! I sold my previous horse during lockdown as my business went under and I simply couldn’t guaruntee that I would be able to pay any vet bills that came along. Perhaps OP should have sold the cob earlier on when she or he realised that they couldn’t afford to get the care needed. Which I acknowledge is a very heartbreaking thing to do, but possibly the right thing.

 

[Widgeon]

Perhaps OP should have sold the cob earlier on when she or he realised that they couldn’t afford to get the care needed. Which I acknowledge is a very heartbreaking thing to do, but possibly the right thing.

In fairness to the OP I'm not sure it's quite as clear cut as that - it sounds like there's been something not right since she bought him, and the reason she's struggled on for so long seems to be at least partly because she doesn't want to pass the problem on yet again. This is a horse who's already had multiple short term homes - she's told us that. Paying vet bills is one thing, developing and funding a strategy to get to the bottom of what seems to be a long-term, complicated problem is another.

 

[Oreo&Amy]

In fairness to the OP I'm not sure it's quite as clear cut as that - it sounds like there's been something not right since she bought him, and the reason she's struggled on for so long seems to be at least partly because she doesn't want to pass the problem on yet again. This is a horse who's already had multiple short term homes - she's told us that.

That’s a good point- but then without being able to find or fund professional help, what’s the end game here? Clearly it cannot continue with both so miserable. I wonder if so many short term homes should have rung more alarm bells at point of purchase. You should only really buy what you can afford to keep. I feel for them both, it’s a really difficult situation.

 

[dorsetladette]

True- but insurance should cover at least some of the cost. Horses are expensive as we all know!! I sold my previous horse during lockdown as my business went under and I simply couldn’t guaruntee that I would be able to pay any vet bills that came along. Perhaps OP should have sold the cob earlier on when she or he realised that they couldn’t afford to get the care needed. Which I acknowledge is a very heartbreaking thing to do, but possibly the right thing.

OP has already stated the horse is not insured. I don't think it would be responsible to sell this horse on. I have a horse with similar issues who now will not ever be sold on. If the loan home he is currently in no longer want him and I'm unable to find a new one he will come home for a 'holiday' and then be PTS as his future is my responsibility.

 

[Patterdale]

I would:
Keep in 24/7, removing all access to grass.

Feed a hay replacer.

Walk out in hand / ride / lunge a couple of times a day.

If after a few weeks, there was improvement, I’d get the vet out to test for allergies.

If there was no improvement I would:

Gradually add turnout, watching for changes. I would probably turn out over night and keep in during the day.

Add a supplement with biotin in it - I use Progressive Earth’s hoof and skin supplements.

Buy boots - you can get them for shire horses so you can get them for a cob.

Get a proper barefoot trimmer to see him. A cob in the sort of work he is in shouldn’t need shoes anyway so I wouldn’t be so concerned about whether he can hold them or not but I would be more concerned about the overall foot balance.

Increase workload, and long rein/ lunge/ loose school/ etc if you don’t want to hack him. But I’d get him moving.

If no improvement then I’d go radical:

Change turnout arrangement - send him somewhere where he can live in a herd, or get a companion into his field.

If you don’t want to change your approach, then you need to accept the consequence of that - you won’t get a different outcome.

It’s difficult when we have been approaching something from the same way for so long, not to feel disheartened by a lack of change. But the horse doesn’t know what’s going on in your head, and looking at the situation objectively, you’ve been putting the same ingredients into the pot, using the same recipe but hoping for a different stew.

I can’t imagine that stabling 24/7 and feeding a hay replacer is going to improve the mood of either the horse, or the OP.
And suggesting this radical change alongside attempting to walk this particular horse out inhand just sounds downright dangerous.

 

[Esmae]

You should only really buy what you can afford to keep. I feel for them both, it’s a really difficult situation.

Well unless you are blessed with second sight you can't possibly know what random things might happen that become expensive both financially and emotionally. Leave the lass alone, (all posters without supportive things to say) she's trying her best and only asked for some support in a difficult situation, and with a few exceptions she's being treated somewhat unfairly.

 

[Oreo&Amy]

Well unless you are blessed with second sight you can't possibly know what random things might happen that become expensive both financially and emotionally. Leave the lass alone, (all posters without supportive things to say) she's trying her best and only asked for some support in a difficult situation, and with a few exceptions she's being treated somewhat unfairly.

I agree. I said in my post I don’t want to be mean, and I also said it must be hard to have all these posts, and I also mentioned mob mentality. But it’s tricky when it’s such an emotive issue, people get more opinionated (I include myself in that!)

 

[Leandy]

im just reaching the end of my tether with him

I think the sooner you accept that that is the case the better for both of you. It sounds as though you have tried with him for a significant period of time and are responsible enough not to try to pass him on. You would not be wrong to have him quietly PTS at home. I think it will be a relief for you.

I see a lot of people are saying you should be spending a lot of money and effort now on trying to sort him out. I don't think this is realistic or a good use of funds. For reasons unknown this horse has deep rooted issues and is a danger to those seeking to handle him. Doing myriad tests on him even if the OP has the funds is not likely going to be easy due to his behavioural issues and after all that stress and cost there is absolutely no guarantee that an issue will be discovered or that even if it is that it will be resolvable to leave a useful, happy horse. Personally I would not be spending money or more time on this horse. Sometimes we have to call it a day and the OP's welfare needs to be considered also.

 

[Oreo&Amy]

I think the sooner you accept that that is the case the better for both of you. It sounds as though you have tried with him for a significant period of time and are responsible enough not to try to pass him on. You would not be wrong to have him quietly PTS at home. I think it will be a relief for you.

I see a lot of people are saying you should be spending a lot of money and effort now on trying to sort him out. I don't think this is realistic or a good use of funds. For reasons unknown this horse has deep rooted issues and is a danger to those seeking to handle him. Doing myriad tests on him even if the OP has the funds is not likely going to be easy due to his behavioural issues and after all that stress and cost there is absolutely no guarantee that an issue will be discovered or that even if it is that it will be resolvable to leave a useful, happy horse. Personally I would not be spending money or more time on this horse. Sometimes we have to call it a day and the OP's welfare needs to be considered also.

Certainly the OP’s welfare must be considered that’s a very good point.

 

[Dexter]

And all those people who are saying 'Poor horse, it's in pain' - if you read the OP's posts, she's had him checked out, and vets don't agree with you.

In terms of 'bucking someone off is a pain response, poor horse'. Just no. Some horses will buck if they are in pain. Some will buck out of unchanneled enthusiasm. And some youngsters learn to buck to be naughty.
Let me explain.

Sorry but a check by a vet doesnt mean the horse isnt in pain, it just hasnt been found yet. Time and time again people say the vet says theres nothing wrong, and then it turns out there is something wrong.

And as I said, horses dont habitually buck people off for no reason. I clearly said pain, lack of education, too much feed etc etc. But there is always a reason and its up to the owner to work out what it is. In this instance the horse only decks people in a specific situation, thats not unchanneled enthusiasm, thats an issue with that situation.

 

[maisie06]

I would have him PTS at home. It would be wrong to sell him on or give him away as he'll just go pillar to post in a downward spiral. It sound like tens of thousands will need to be spent on him which I'm sure OP would rather not be spending on a horse that will probably never come right and she has 2 other to consider. We sometimes have to be pragmatic and with so many good horses looking for homes it's crazy to keep chucking money down the drain on this one.

 

[Shilasdair]

I hate to become part of a mob vote but it immediately became obvious to me that this cob is in pain. You need to get a whole raft of professional help, including a professional equine behavioural specialist, an equine vet preferably specialising in pain, an equine physio, a trainer, a saddle fitter, and potentially a different farrier.Additionally until these professionals have examined and analysed your cob, I would stop all ridden work. Have you lunged him? Maybe turn him away for a while; he sounds traumatised and at the very last is in severe discomfort. So don’t keep trying to school him; repeating the same behaviour and expecting a different result is the definition of madness! I’m not trying to be mean and im sure it’s hard reading all these comments, and I’m not saying you don’t care but if you do care you will listen to the advice given on here. Best of luck and report back when you have worked with professionals whose job it is to help equines in situations like these.

Did you even read the OP's posts?

So you insistent that she should spend tens of thousands of pounds (uninsured) on a 13 year old cob which she isn't even that fond of? Will you be funding this?

 

[Shilasdair]

Sorry but a check by a vet doesnt mean the horse isnt in pain, it just hasnt been found yet. Time and time again people say the vet says theres nothing wrong, and then it turns out there is something wrong.

And as I said, horses dont habitually buck people off for no reason. I clearly said pain, lack of education, too much feed etc etc. But there is always a reason and its up to the owner to work out what it is. In this instance the horse only decks people in a specific situation, thats not unchanneled enthusiasm, thats an issue with that situation.

Did you even read my post - pointless having a discussion if not?

The OP could spend tens of thousands of pounds on vet investigation, and may come away with a diagnosis of some hitherto hidden problem- but she'll be no further on in terms of fixing them.

 

[Widgeon]

The OP could spend tens of thousands of pounds on vet investigation, and may come away with a diagnosis of some hitherto hidden problem- but she'll be no further on in terms of fixing them.

Exactly. This sounds like a situation where the OP should cover some basic checks / anything she particularly suspects might be a problem, get a qualified second opinion from a good trainer or behaviorist, and then call it a day if there's no way forward apparent after that. I really feel for the OP, this is a horrible situation to be in and (particularly with two other horses) I don't think it would be a good or sensible use of money to fling it all a long-term problematic horse. I'd be worried that really extensive investigations would just end being a bottomless rabbit hole for cash. PTS isn't a welfare issue. Easy to say that as an outsider but to me it seems like the OP needs some support for an unpleasant decision that she's leaning towards anyway.

 

[southerncomfort]

OP I won't tell you what to do but I will share my experience with you.

We bought a small cob for my youngest novice daughter to ride. I wasn't completely sold on him and with the benefit of hindsight I should have listened to my gut, but daughter loved him.

We struggled with him for almost a year. We were all covered in bruises and bites, I'd had a chunk bitten out of my scalp, I still have a lump where he lashed out and caught me just above the knee. Once he walked up to my dad in field and bit him hard in the stomach. He was angry and defensive and uncooperative. I rarely let my daughter off the lead rein as i couldn't trust him. We had trainers come out, we had him physically checked over. Nothing helped. Finally he bucked my daughter off and very calmly turned round and gave her both barrels to the back of the head. He could have killed her.

Daughter refused to go anywhere near him let alone ride him. I agonised over what to do but knew for sure I absolutely would not pass him on. He had the potential to put someone in hospital or worse. I did some sleuthing and discovered that the behaviour had been seen in a previous home. I spoke to friends, professionals and vets and eventually had him PTS. If he'd have been happy out in the field I'd have kept him as a field ornament but he'd just randomly attack people in the field. He was totally unpredictable.

Here is the thing though....its a hell of a thing to live with. I carry a huge burden of guilt over what I did. I still wake up in the night with a sick feeling in my stomach. Its something I've found very hard to live with.

So if you do go down this line, make sure you've made your peace with the decision. Make sure your conscience can live with it.

I will say that their are a lot of very poorly bred cobs that frankly aren't quite right in the head!

 

[Shilasdair]

OP I won't tell you what to do but I will share my experience with you.

Here is the thing though....its a hell of a thing to live with. I carry a huge burden of guilt over what I did. I still wake up in the night with a sick feeling in my stomach. Its something I've found very hard to live with.

You absolutely did the right thing - you know that, I hope?
There are some horses which are just not safe to be around - what if he'd injured/killed a child?
No guilt needed, SouthernComfort.

 

[paddy555]

OP, I hope you are still with us

this is the HWSD test. Cost £35, you simply pull hairs with the roots on from mane/tail, put them in an envelope and send them off. Results normally take 10 days or so. Don't need a vet and whilst it is money this may be a good use of £35 to get some definite info.

https://animalgenetics.eu/product/Equine/HWSD.html

I hope you are feeling a little better today.

 

[southerncomfort]

You absolutely did the right thing - you know that, I hope?
There are some horses which are just not safe to be around - what if he'd injured/killed a child?
No guilt needed, SouthernComfort.

Thank you.

I know that if he'd killed or injured someone the guilt would have been horrific! It was a tough decision but in reality their was no alternative.

 

[meleeka]

Here is the thing though....its a hell of a thing to live with. I carry a huge burden of guilt over what I did. I still wake up in the night with a sick feeling in my stomach. Its something I've found very hard to live with.

So if you do go down this line, make sure you've made your peace with the decision. Make sure your conscience can live with it.

I will say that their are a lot of very poorly bred cobs that frankly aren't quite right in the head!

I totally agree. It really doesn’t matter what anyone on the internet thinks, or any well meaning friends. The horse won’t care either way, but I think the most important thing is that we can live with our decision. Even when you know it’s the right one, guilt usually rears it’s head at some point afterwards.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I can’t imagine that stabling 24/7 and feeding a hay replacer is going to improve the mood of either the horse, or the OP.
And suggesting this radical change alongside attempting to walk this particular horse out inhand just sounds downright dangerous.

The OP says she’s experienced and capable, just not getting to the bottom of issues with this horse.

If the horse becomes less itchy and irritable, then there is an issue with the grass. If he gets worse, then you change it and turn out.

We all have to be able to stable our horses for box rest, and handle them accordingly. Grass allergies can really send them loopy. I’m not sure how common they are in cobs but I’ve seen it in Spanish horses and they have literally been different animals after a few days.

ETA, I think radical stage is really already here - it isn’t like pts isn’t the last thing on everyone’s list. I’d try radical before pts. One thing is certain though, what is happening right now isn’t working for anyone.

 

[bonny]

I think the problem with these threads is none of us know the horse or the owner so we have no idea if someone else would manage his problems or not.

 

[cauda equina]

Of course we don't, but I hope our comments will help the OP to decide how best to deal with him