Debate for the rights and wrongs of racing

[Elf On A Shelf]

I do think we need a system like Germany's for our bloodstock where by only the best can be bred from. Just because a filly has won a beach donkey Derby at her 40th attempt at racing it doesn't mean she is worthy of being bred from.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I accept it happens. I don’t accept that it happens in numbers as a percentage of starters that invalidates a comparison between the proportion of deaths of starters over NH fences and the proportion of deaths of starters at BE cross country.

And I stick to my belief that if one horse died for every weekend of BE competition BE would shut down within a season. I don't believe that this list would ever exist for BE. https://www.horsedeathwatch.com/

I don't think it's feasible to stop jump racing without at least 10 years notice, and it's not something I would call for. But I'm finding attempts by people to convince themselves that on course death rates aren't an order of magnitude greater than the next most dangerous organised horse jumping sport really disturbing.

By all means support and justify the racing you love, but for the love of horses own the reality of the deaths.
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Don't take that website as gospel. I haven't look at it in a while but I have had to email them 3x in the past to get them to remove horses that were alive and well they just hadn't ran again after a pull up or fall. They just assumed they died.

 

[ycbm]

Don't take that website as gospel. I haven't look at it in a while but I have had to email them 3x in the past to get them to remove horses that were alive and well they just hadn't ran again after a pull up or fall. They just assumed they died.

I acknowledged when I first pointed to it up thread that it was not perfect.

Why hasn't racing got a better one? Why doesn't racing any longer seem to publish the death per number of starters statistic that it used to? I can't find it. The last time I saw it it was 1 death per 250 starters.

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[Clodagh]

Do you think they're strict enough, given the number that fell or pulled up on the first circuit (and the risk then posed to everyone else by the loose horses)?

Does the national really need to have 40 runners?

I think the going was too fast. Just Mo. I love racing but the National does nothing for me at all.

 

[minesadouble]

If we were to ban one 'genre' only, to have the biggest positive impact on overall horse welfare then it would undoubtedly be banning the ownership of leisure horses/ponies.
That is without question.

 

[Gallop_Away]

As a matter of interest, what will happen (if anything) to NH racing as and when Hunting is completely banned?

I appreciate there is a link between hunts and p-2-p's, which I assume will disappear as a fund raiser for the hunts that run them, but will this have a further impact on producing NH horses?

I hope they will still continue. I know of 3 hunts, 1 that has folded completely and the other 2 which are bloodhound packs, that still run p2p races.

 

[Getbackboys]

agree with all of the above comments, will any of it change - sadly i dont think so - i turn the telly off when the grand national is run and i dont watch jump racing at all - accidents happen yes but i feel guilty when it happens because we the rider are making the horse do whatever discipline it is doing which ends in an accident and fatality - accidents in the field are imo an act of God - taking a horse on the roads, that used to be safe but due to increase of number of vehicles on the road (in the old days youngsters barely afforded to own a car - referring to those with fast noisy cars) nowadays everyone has one.

whips in races may be padded, it is still not nice to watch a tired horse being flogged, my father always said what did God give me legs and a voice for. I was a A grade showjumper in my time and i never carried a whip, didnt need to, i was always in the first 3 placings.

as for the stable lads love their horses yes they do but there are those who hate the job but cant or wont do another job so take their anger out on the horse esp in the stable out of site - seen it first hand many times and as you know me i have not walked away and said nothing i have given that person a right telling off. best one i was driving behind a string of racehorses the other day one horse spooked as they do and the rider laid into it with his whip, could have patted the horse instead and reassured it, when i went past i mentioned what they had done was not nice for joe public to see so i was given verbal abuse unfortunately for that rider i gave back as much as they gave me, but it was just awful poor horse. if it was a dog or child i would have said something as well maybe that is how change will happen is if more people spoke up to those that have an authority to act just like what has happened with horse riding and the highway code people spoke up.

 

[tristar]

i don`t like watching the jump racing anymore

some of the jockeys are really not good, can`t bear to watch the lack of skill in approach to the take offs

 

[Goldenstar]

Over sixty per cent of horse are not deemed suitable for purchase for the job the purchaser want the horse for at a five stage vetting .
Young Warm blood wastage runs about the same rate as racing .
Culling of incorrect young stock is normal on the continent theres no welfare issue in that ,when it’s business people are practical .

 

[Orangehorse]

The jockeys don't hit the horse as much as it appears from a side on view. Mostly they are waving the whip and don't make contact, if you look at the head on view.

I don't think the horse minds that much, it is more of what it looks like to the racing public. I wonder why there haven't been any races where using the whip is not allowed, like apprentice or claimer races. I know they need to carry a whip for safety.

After a race there are lots of happy people - the winning owner, trainer, jockey and those that backed the horses.

 

[Goldenstar]

The whole the horses are loved thing bothers me , horses need the correct care , the correct training and conditioning in their fitness for their jobs they need the right vet care they need the company of their own kind they don’t need loved by a human to have a good life .

 

[LadyGascoyne]

The whole the horses are loved thing bothers me , horses need the correct care , the correct training and conditioning in their fitness for their jobs they need the right vet care they need the company of their own kind they don’t need loved by a human to have a good life .

In fact, I think that humans loving horses is possibly one of the biggest contributing factors to horses having a poor life.

 

[L&M]

Nothing will happen to jumps racing if hunting is banned. It is a separate entity and very few horses actually go hunting whilst racing these days. The horses are too valuable.

Ptp In Britain? No. Very few horses come through the British point to point system and go on to be decent racehorses (I know, I know! Ahoy Senor is one such horse that I am saying doesn't really exist!) I could count on 1 hand horses that have gone from Brittish ptp's to proper racing. Most British ptp's are older horses that weren't good enough for rules racing or have done their time under rules and are now teaching the new generation of jockeys their trade. Irish ptp's are entirely different. They are the shop windows. Those are the young, up coming horses for jumping that run and get sold for stupid money. It is the national hunt version of the breeze up sales in a sense.

Thanks for the information!

 

[stangs]

In fact, I think that humans loving horses is possibly one of the biggest contributing factors to horses having a poor life.

Humans loving horses but not having been educated on how to maximise their welfare or having been misinformed is one problem. Many learn about how to provide a better life for their horses over time.

Humans loving the sport and what horses can do for them, not horses themselves, is the biggest factor.

 

[L&M]

I hope they will still continue. I know of 3 hunts, 1 that has folded completely and the other 2 which are bloodhound packs, that still run p2p races.

That is interesting - I thought p-2-p horses are meant to do a few hunting days to qualify. Is it the actual disbanded packs that are still running the races or neighbouring ones?

 

[Getbackboys]

orangehorse - i think out of 30 smacks from start to finish during a race at least 20 connect with the horse, padded or not, it just looks awful and racing needs the public to support it.

the big good jockeys franki, silvestre, joe fanning you dont see them whacking the horse to win a race they become one with the horse, they get right down on it so little wind resistance and urge the horse forward, father used to say again, throw your heart in front of the horse and it will follow. how many times have you seen a less experienced jockey sitting in a good position in the race then next thing out comes the whip, jockeys movement unbalances the horse and it hits a brick wall, hindsight is a lovely thing……..

i am yet to meet a horse who said at the end of the race they didnt mind getting whacked ??

 

[LadyGascoyne]

Humans loving horses but not having been educated on how to maximise their welfare or having been misinformed is one problem. Many learn about how to provide a better life for their horses over time.

Humans loving the sport and what horses can do for them, not horses themselves, is the biggest factor.

I am specifically thinking of people who love their horses so much that they struggle to have them put down when necessary. Or keep them on individual turnout without any social interaction to prevent injury. Or with very limited turnout at all for similar reasons. Or keeping them in miserable conditions because they don’t want to part with a horse despite not being able to keep it appropriately.

All frequently done because the person loves the horse. And not to the benefit of the horse at all.

The quicker we acknowledge that almost all horses are kept for the convenience and pleasure of humans, very frequently to the detriment of their overall health and well-being, the more realistic we will be about improvements.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

orangehorse - i think out of 30 smacks from start to finish during a race at least 20 connect with the horse, padded or not, it just looks awful and racing needs the public to support it.

the big good jockeys franki, silvestre, joe fanning you dont see them whacking the horse to win a race they become one with the horse, they get right down on it so little wind resistance and urge the horse forward, father used to say again, throw your heart in front of the horse and it will follow. how many times have you seen a less experienced jockey sitting in a good position in the race then next thing out comes the whip, jockeys movement unbalances the horse and it hits a brick wall, hindsight is a lovely thing……..

i am yet to meet a horse who said at the end of the race they didnt mind getting whacked ??

Flat jockeys have an easier job, can ride shorter because there are no jumps and can be much more streamlined in a finish. If you tried jumping with your irons up the scuts you wouldn't last 2 hurdles and no fences.

L&M horses don't need to actually hunt any more to ptp. You just need to pay a cap and the hunt master/secretary will sign your papers.

 

[Velcrobum]

I am specifically thinking of people who love their horses so much that they struggle to have them put down when necessary. Or keep them on individual turnout without any social interaction to prevent injury. Or with very limited turnout at all for similar reasons. Or keeping them in miserable conditions because they don’t want to part with a horse despite not being able to keep it appropriately.

All frequently done because the person loves the horse. And not to the benefit of the horse at all.

The quicker we acknowledge that almost all horses are kept for the convenience and pleasure of humans, very frequently to the detriment of their overall health and well-being, the more realistic we will be about improvements.

^^^^^^^
This in spades.
Remember the thread where a HHOer inherited in the field they purchased a feral lame pony which they knew needed to be pts on welfare grounds. The amount of stick said poster got was appalling IMHO.

 

[Upthecreek]

If we were to ban one 'genre' only, to have the biggest positive impact on overall horse welfare then it would undoubtedly be banning the ownership of leisure horses/ponies.
That is without question.

This is so true. I think this is a futile debate really and highly hypocritical of any of us that own horses to compete and/or ride purely for our own enjoyment to be against racing, eventing, polo or whatever and think it should be banned. We can go around and around in circles and say that one sport is less bad than another, but really no horse would choose to be ridden or to be stabled or to travel in a trailer. How many horses die every year as a result of road collisions? Should we stop riding them on the road? How many horses are injured or killed as a result of field accidents? I’m not ashamed to say that I’ve owned horses purely for my own enjoyment for over 30 years. I do not therefore have the right to say equestrian sports or activities that I do not choose to participate in should be banned. There is risk of harm and welfare issues in all of it.

 

[Gallop_Away]

The whole the horses are loved thing bothers me , horses need the correct care , the correct training and conditioning in their fitness for their jobs they need the right vet care they need the company of their own kind they don’t need loved by a human to have a good life .

I do agree with you in part GS but just wanted to clarify, my comment about those being involved with race horses caring for and loving the animals they work with, was in counter to the argument that I have heard so often, that it's all about the money with racing. My experience has taught me that this is not the case.

 

[sakura]

I think things are very different when vast amounts of money become involved.

Earning a lot of money on the back of animals is always going to be problematic and a moral debate.

 

[Gallop_Away]

That is interesting - I thought p-2-p horses are meant to do a few hunting days to qualify. Is it the actual disbanded packs that are still running the races or neighbouring ones?

That was the case previously but now I believe they only need to be members of a hunt to participate (happy to be corrected if this is not the case)

The p2p for the disbanded pack I know of is still run under the hunt's name, although obviously not by the hunt themselves. I think it's one of the previous commitee members that organises it now.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I’m not ashamed to say that I’ve owned horses purely for my own enjoyment for over 30 years. I do not therefore have the right to say equestrian sports or activities that I do not choose to participate in should be banned.

I don't know about that. There are definitely some things that are indefensible and everyone absolutely has the right to want them banned even if they have horses themselves: Big Lick, tail setting, horse tripping and horse fighting for example.

 

[Getbackboys]

the longer irons for jump jockeys is all the more reason for using their legs to encourage instead of the whip. my comment was referring to the use of the whip, not the discipline, so length of iron is irrelevant to my comment, ie the names of the jockeys mentioned is flat racing. i was referring also to those experienced enough not to have to draw the whip to get the end result which is what joe public wants to see.

 

[tristar]

horses need very little really, just the things they need, the basics, altering the basics, feed, freedom, hoof care, company creates an unnatural lifestyle cutting lives short

can`t imagine not loving my best friends, their affection returned is a very nice part of having them in my life

i think loving them is where you find the strength to do the best for their welfare, because loving them means putting their interest above your own
we can ride and train for the horse, they enjoy the interaction, using their bodies and the results if done well show in their pleasure and physical improvement

its a matter of degree, to expect a horse to race jump whilst being aware of the fragility of their legs is a step too far for me these days

 

[Upthecreek]

I don't know about that. There are definitely some things that are indefensible and everyone absolutely has the right to want them banned even if they have horses themselves: Big Lick, tail setting, horse tripping and horse fighting for example.

Apologies if my post wasn’t clear but I was not referring to ‘things that are indefensible’. I was talking about the sports and equestrian activities that horse owners commonly participate in. So somebody who owns a horse and chooses to do dressage should not criticise someone who chooses to event. The horse wouldn’t choose to do either, so who are we to say which is less bad?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

its a matter of degree, to expect a horse to race jump whilst being aware of the fragility of their legs is a step too far for me these days

But the same could be said of horses expected to jump big show jumps or put a lot of pressure on their hocks do dressage. By that argument no horse would ever do anything other than mooch about for fear of their legs.

 

[Gamebird]

Nothing will happen to jumps racing if hunting is banned. It is a separate entity and very few horses actually go hunting whilst racing these days. The horses are too valuable.

Ptp In Britain? No. Very few horses come through the British point to point system and go on to be decent racehorses (I know, I know! Ahoy Senor is one such horse that I am saying doesn't really exist!) I could count on 1 hand horses that have gone from Brittish ptp's to proper racing. Most British ptp's are older horses that weren't good enough for rules racing or have done their time under rules and are now teaching the new generation of jockeys their trade. Irish ptp's are entirely different. They are the shop windows. Those are the young, up coming horses for jumping that run and get sold for stupid money. It is the national hunt version of the breeze up sales in a sense.

I hope you counted Energumene. And Supersundae! I would be inclined to agree with you, but I'd say that over the past few years the tide has been turning. Sure, we don't have an Ellemarie Holden in the UK... yet, but I do know a few people making a living from producing pointers destined for the sales in a similar manner to the Irish model. And ironically the two named above pointed in the UK and were sold to Ireland. We don't do it like they do, but we are certainly starting to use the UK point to points to produce some serious 6 figure racehorses.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I hope you counted Energumene. And Supersundae! I would be inclined to agree with you, but I'd say that over the past few years the tide has been turning. Sure, we don't have an Ellemarie Holden in the UK... yet, but I do know a few people making a living from producing pointers destined for the sales in a similar manner to the Irish model. And ironically the two named above pointed in the UK and were sold to Ireland. We don't do it like they do, but we are certainly starting to use the UK point to points to produce some serious 6 figure racehorses.

Yes a small handful. Things are starting to change but it will take a long time. It is too ingrained in Irish culture and sales culture for it to change swiftly. There was an 8yo+ maiden at a northern ptp the other week!