Dilutes in the Hunter Ring

[Elf On A Shelf]

You also get a lot of dun/buckskin (whatever way round you want to call them!) Welsh and Connemara ponies. As well as the Shetlands so it's not as rare as you think.

Saying that I have never seen a good dun standard shetland. Plenty of good minis kicking about but people have been putting minis to standards to try to get the dun and its not working overly well.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I put a really lovely coloured Hunter through in a qualifier a few years ago. Organisers were horrified and I was never invited back to judge there.

There have been some nice coloureds but it really does have to be utterly superb to stand half a chance in a top flight showing class again from the Coloured Section. When I was showing the Wee Coloured Job I picked my judges carefully as up here in shetland showing you generally need a black. And if it isn't black it had better be chestnut. If not chestnut then bay or another solid colour. Broken Coloured was seen as an abomination to some! The look on their faces when I beat them though was priceless!

 

[milliepops]

i find showing utterly weird. If someone produced a superb example of a hunter that happened to be a pally then surely it should be rewarded for its type (and presumably way of going, as i was edumakated about that being so influential the other day )

I love all the fun colours in the welshies. Is there the same colour prejudice in welsh showing? Never been that way inclined with mine, and I am not ashamed to say i've chosen a stallion for her partly on colour grounds, but mine is a vanity project now

 

[Rowreach]

Argh. Congratulations to you for being a judge with the ability to see past as something superficial as colour!

The organisers sound stuck in the Dark Ages.

i forgot which owner/producer was meant to win

 

[Leandy]

We wouldn't call the pony buckskin, it is. Buckskin is one copy of a cream gene on top of bay. The pony passed that cream gene on to produce the palomino, palomino is one copy of cream on chestnut. They don't just appear And this is why people need to differentiate between dun/buckskin etc. That way no one is surprised.

Buckskin is not an americanism, its the name for a specific set of genes which produce a specific colour.

Yes, I know it is the cream (dilute) gene that produced the palomino. That was my point, but it happened without design. I also get that to a geneticist the colour terms have very specific meanings and there is specific accepted terminology. However ...... back in the less rarified world of common parlance, and particularly traditionally in the UK, very often the term dun is used..... whether you like it or not.

Also, such semantics don't really matter in the context of the original OP!

 

[Rowreach]

There have been some nice coloureds but it really does have to be utterly superb to stand half a chance in a top flight showing class again from the Coloured Section. When I was showing the Wee Coloured Job I picked my judges carefully as up here in shetland showing you generally need a black. And if it isn't black it had better be chestnut. If not chestnut then bay or another solid colour. Broken Coloured was seen as an abomination to some! The look on their faces when I beat them though was priceless!

Yes it does, but if it's far and away the best in the qualifier, I'm not going to give the ticket to a random bay just because it will fit in a bit better at the RDS. Up to the owner if they want to give it a bash. Given what it costs to enter, I wouldn't bother even if I had the bestest horse in the country tbh.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

i find showing utterly weird. If someone produced a superb example of a hunter that happened to be a pally then surely it should be rewarded for its type (and presumably way of going, as i was edumakated about that being so influential the other day )

I love all the fun colours in the welshies. Is there the same colour prejudice in welsh showing? Never been that way inclined with mine, and I am not ashamed to say i've chosen a stallion for her partly on colour grounds, but mine is a vanity project now

Yes you don't have blacks in Welsh showing! Any other colour, the most fantastic array of white and sabino splashes etc but not black really ?? OK there has been the odd black that has done well but again they are few and far between!

 

[milliepops]

Yes you don't have blacks in Welsh showing! Any other colour, the most fantastic array of white and sabino splashes etc but not black really ?? OK there has been the odd black that has done well but again they are few and far between!

interesting. the louder the better for me, if you're going to have something ultra welsh you may as well go the whole hog there are some really pretty sabino-y ones out there but i wondered if the boring colours did better in the show ring

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Yes it does, but if it's far and away the best in the qualifier, I'm not going to give the ticket to a random bay just because it will fit in a bit better at the RDS. Up to the owner if they want to give it a bash. Given what it costs to enter, I wouldn't bother even if I had the bestest horse in the country tbh.

There was a coloured racehorse in a class at at show the other weekend and I know one of the judges wouldn't mind its colour but the other is one of these very, very old school judges who likes his plain bays, chestnuts and greys ? the horse managed to finish 2nd by Virtue of the fact that it was really well behaved and gave a lovely ride, the ride clearly put her foot down and made sure it was placed and I know the conf judge wouldn't have even looked at it.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

interesting. the louder the better for me, if you're going to have something ultra welsh you may as well go the whole hog there are some really pretty sabino-y ones out there but i wondered if the boring colours did better in the show ring

I'm not so keen on the loud splashes but I do like 4 white socks to flash out with. My Welsh cob is a lovely red bay and 4 small white socks up to his fetlocks to just enough to flash out and catch the eye but not too mush to make it a hassle keeping them clean ?

 

[Clodagh]

This thread reminds me of my mum’s copy of the Observers Book of Horses and Ponies, which describes coloureds (and I quote approximately from memory) as: often seen pulling milk carts and should NOT be seen on the hunting field.

 

[Clodagh]

Yes you don't have blacks in Welsh showing! Any other colour, the most fantastic array of white and sabino splashes etc but not black really ?? OK there has been the odd black that has done well but again they are few and far between!

Have I really not seen a black? Not that I spend a lot of my life watching showing but I’m sure I’ve seen several blacks? With flashy white markings I grant you.

 

[fetlock]

Have I really not seen a black? Not that I spend a lot of my life watching showing but I’m sure I’ve seen several blacks? With flashy white markings I grant you.

Lots of black Welsh section Ds about

 

[Tiddlypom]

This thread reminds me of my mum’s copy of the Observers Book of Horses and Ponies, which describes coloureds (and I quote approximately from memory) as: often seen pulling milk carts and should NOT be seen on the hunting field.

I can remember competing at an affiliated dressage competition when a qualified riding centre owner/instructor was asked to please warm up her coloured horse somewhere else as it was scaring the 'proper' dressage horses .

She naturally stuck her ground and the proper dressage horses had to lump it, poor things.

This was about 40 years ago.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Lots of black Welsh section Ds about

Yes more Black D's are appearing now but you will rarely see a black A or C at a Welsh Show, B's are a touch more frequent in black than A's and C's but still rare.

 

[millikins]

Yes you don't have blacks in Welsh showing! Any other colour, the most fantastic array of white and sabino splashes etc but not black really ?? OK there has been the odd black that has done well but again they are few and far between!

Nebo Black Magic?

 

[I'm Dun]

Yes, I know it is the cream (dilute) gene that produced the palomino. That was my point, but it happened without design. I also get that to a geneticist the colour terms have very specific meanings and there is specific accepted terminology. However ...... back in the less rarified world of common parlance, and particularly traditionally in the UK, very often the term dun is used..... whether you like it or not.

Also, such semantics don't really matter in the context of the original OP!

How on earth could it have happened without design if you were aware of the colour genetics?

Visually dun and buckskin are different. You don't need to be a geneticist to know that. Its very simple to tell.

I will never, ever understand why people are proud of being ignorant and wrong. I am glad its changing.

 

[minesadouble]

Yes it does, but if it's far and away the best in the qualifier, I'm not going to give the ticket to a random bay just because it will fit in a bit better at the RDS. Up to the owner if they want to give it a bash. Given what it costs to enter, I wouldn't bother even if I had the bestest horse in the country tbh.

I was always of the impression that you didn't need to qualify for RDS?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Looking through the Royal Welsh 2019 pics in the inhand sections there are:

A's - 3 - 2 from the same stud/person
B's - 0
C's - 4
D's - 10

 

[fetlock]

How on earth could it have happened without design if you were aware of the colour genetics?

Visually dun and buckskin are different. You don't need to be a geneticist to know that. Its very simple to tell.

I will never, ever understand why people are proud of being ignorant and wrong. I am glad its changing.

Whether technically they're duns or technically they're buckskins instead, in the UK both were always called duns, and still are by many (the many including top producers and renowned breeders). Until recent years never once have I heard the term buckskin used, other than by Americans.

 

[ester]

They'll catch up eventually

I mostly think it hangs around because you can make more interesting competition names with 'dun' in them

 

[ester]

You also get a lot of dun/buckskin (whatever way round you want to call them!) Welsh and Connemara ponies. As well as the Shetlands so it's not as rare as you think.

Saying that I have never seen a good dun standard shetland. Plenty of good minis kicking about but people have been putting minis to standards to try to get the dun and its not working overly well.

This exhibits the problem well
you get lots of buckskin welsh and connies
You get dun in shetlands (highlands/a few welsh As and Cs mostly and anything more exotic brought in )

so yes true dun is relatively rare here.

 

[criso]

Whether technically they're duns or technically they're buckskins instead, in the UK both were always called duns, and still are by many (the many including top producers and renowned breeders). Until recent years never once have I heard the term buckskin used, other than by Americans.

But we improve our knowledge and move on. We now know there are 2 completely different genes that cause a similar but not identical colouring on a bay coat. The genes behave very differently when combined with chestnut or black.

It wouldn't matter if no one cared about colour but this thread is about how in certain disciplines colour is important so from a breeding point, it is useful to know likely outcomes.

You would then know that as in Leandy's example that even though both parents had a bay base colour, as chestnut is recessive it could be passed on, 25% chance and 50/50 chance that cream was inherited so there was a 12.5% possibility of palomino. Not the most likely outcome but not incredibly unlikely either

 

[ycbm]

Whether technically they're duns or technically they're buckskins instead, in the UK both were always called duns, and still are by many (the many including top producers and renowned breeders). Until recent years never once have I heard the term buckskin used, other than by Americans.

I think pre DNA testing, the USA called all duns buckskin. My impression is that in the UK, that colouring was always known as dun and in the US that coloring was always known as buckskin.

In which case, getting too picky about being correct about buckskin in the UK, unless you are breeding, seems a wee bit pointless. It's just that we fairly recently decided to call one gene set by the UK term and the other gene set by the US term, when they actually both started out the same way.
.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Confirmed old f@rt here.

The term 'buckskin' makes my teeth itch, it's a horrible Americanism. I am not a fan of things American. So I still call them duns.

So there .

 

[ester]

They do look pretty different though even just the coat dilution.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Confirmed old f@rt here.

The term 'buckskin' makes my teeth itch, it's a horrible Americanism. I am not a fan of things American. So I still call them duns.

So there .

I'm with you! Unless I actually have to define the colour by genetics on an animal I have then they are all dun to me ?

 

[rabatsa]

I believe that odd colours were frowned upon in days gone by, when out hunting as any misdemeaners stood out from the crowd of look alike bays and browns.

 

[ycbm]

They do look pretty different though even just the coat dilution.

I'm not sure they do, to most people. I would have to think whether something is dun or buckskin, it doesn't just pop into my head. The most ardent dun/buckskin people on this forum all seem to have a very strong interest in genetics and/ or are scientists like yourself. I don't really think Joe Average cares.

Purple is all a sorts of colours but people happily call them all purple. Does it matter if someone calls a buckskin gelding a dun?
.

 

[Gloi]

How on earth could it have happened without design if you were aware of the colour genetics?

Visually dun and buckskin are different. You don't need to be a geneticist to know that. Its very simple to tell.

I will never, ever understand why people are proud of being ignorant and wrong. I am glad its changing.

Me too. I find it really annoying people being proud of being incorrect.