Dressage Discussion- FEI removes the principles of dressage (rule 401) and moves to guidelines only, implications for future of dressage.

[shortstuff99]

I'm not sure if many have seen but for 2023 the FEI has removed rule 401, principles of dressage, and moved it to guidelines only.

Rule 401 would state things like, horses should be slightly in front of the vertical, and horse should be seen to be doing dressage of their own accord etc.

In this time of social license I find it very weird that they move these principles to guidelines only. This means you could see an increase in tight necks, behind the vertical etc style riding being rewarded as it is now not a rule.

Thoughts?

 

[Spotherisk]

Cynics might say that it’s easier to change the rules than judge to them…

 

[shortstuff99]

Cynics might say that it’s easier to change the rules than judge to them…

These were my thoughts too, in the advent of increased specialist breeding and way of going it is harder to judge to the classic principles. These mega breeders in Europe hold a lot of sway and want to keep their horses winning....

 

[Cortez]

Well that's the final nail in the coffin for the classical art of dressage then. Tragic, pathetic and the worst news. Poor horses.

 

[scats]

So this altered way of going has become so normal now that it’s easier to change the ruling than penalise accordingly.

 

[shortstuff99]

Well that's the final nail in the coffin for the classical art of dressage then. Tragic, pathetic and the worst news. Poor horses.

I'm so disheartened now that I'm not sure whether to bother with competitive dressage now.

So this altered way of going has become so normal now that it’s easier to change the ruling than penalise accordingly.

Precisely!

 

[claracanter]

I am not a fan of high level dressage but Carl and Charlotte and others who ride in a similar sympathetic style, have made it more appealing to me. Their horses appear freer, natural and less stressy than the others and they win too. Does this change to the rules mean this style of training and riding will no longer be rewarded? How can this in any way be a step forward?
Would be interesting to hear Carl’s view on this.

 

[Cortez]

I'm so disheartened now that I'm not sure whether to bother with competitive dressage now.

The writing was on the wall many years ago; it's why I stopped competing.

 

[shortstuff99]

I am not a fan of high level dressage but Carl and Charlotte and others who ride in a similar sympathetic style, have made it more appealing to me. Their horses appear freer, natural and less stressy than the others and they win too. Does this change to the rules mean this style of training and riding will no longer be rewarded? How can this in any way be a step forward?
Would be interesting to hear Carl’s view on this.

If I'm honest I think Carl has always been under marked for his tests, now with this change judges have no rule to enforce and could become more (rather than less) about personal preference.

While Charlotte is better than others I feel her riding is still on the modern end of push/pull dressage.

 

[ycbm]

It has been agreed among top trainers for many years now that BTV training (not rollkür), is correct for young horses.
.

 

[Cortez]

It has been agreed among top trainers for many years now that BTV training (not rollkür, is correct for young horses.
.

Not all of them, but yes, it is very common.

 

[ycbm]

Charlotte and others who ride in a similar sympathetic style

Take a look at some of Charlotte's tests on Valegro, she's got a heck of a grip on the reins.

No, i can't ride anywhere near as well as she does but I'm not quite sure where she gets her reputation for being totally sympathetic from. She definitely has a "drive up to the contact" method.
.

 

[Cortez]

Take a look at some of Charlotte's tests on Valegro, she's got a heck of a grip on the reins.

No, i can't ride anywhere near as well as she does but I'm not quite sure where she gets her reputation for being totally sympathetic from. She definitely has a "drive up to the contact" method.
.

I have done a little riding at Carl's yard, and you are correct.

 

[splashgirl45]

Many horses even free in the field will go BTV so it’s not completely unnatural but I hate seeing it in ridden work. I can accept the odd moment during a test but not the forced outline which is shown by so many riders. I love the way Carl rides and he is very sympathetic to his horses , however I feel that since Charlotte got such high marks with Freestyle her riding is more like the foreigners and I now don’t like to watch her as she seems to ride most of them like that , BTV and with very extravagant front movement which is not matched by the back. I liked the way Pumpkin went but she sold him , maybe he wasn’t flashy enough for her.. my favourite has always been Valegro

 

[Rowreach]

It doesn't surprise me at all. I can't watch high level dressage, it has me veering between deep anger and huge distress.

This change simply allows riders and trainers to abuse horses even more as there are fewer boundaries than ever.

 

[shortstuff99]

It has been agreed among top trainers for many years now that BTV training (not rollkür), is correct for young horses.
.

Would be interesting to hear their reasoning for why that is correct?

There are also still plenty of top riders training rollkur behind closed doors.

 

[tristar]

well they have been marking BTV high for years, so nothing to surprise us

no one yet has said `oh great news` so if we are a small sample of popular opinion, an awful lot of horse people will see this as a backwards step.

i hope it will cause a revival of classical riding ultimately, cause i do not know anyone who `loves watching comp dressage`.

but many thousands talk about and visit the spanish school of riding, read `complete training of horses and rider` as if its a bible, whether that is a good example i`m not sure.

until dressage is acknowledged as for something designed for the benefit of horse, and not the horse for the benefit of competition dressage, welfare will continue to be the primary issue.

well they should actually take away the rule for ` the horse appearing to work on its own` as they all ride with spurs.

 

[ycbm]

Would be interesting to hear their reasoning for why that is correct?

The reason given was that weak young horses do work behind the vertical but grow out of it as they strengthen.

The opinion became so widespread that i just accepted it as true a while ago. I don't see any reason in that for removing penalising btv from higher level tests, though.

 

[Cortez]

well they should actually take away the rule for ` the horse appearing to work on its own` as they all ride with spurs.

They all ride with saddles and bridles too, which are just as instrumental in the horse not "really" working on it's own.

 

[Nicnac]

Anyone read this? I haven't but it's quite an eyeopener.

“The advent of the FEI code of conduct and, subsequently, the social construct of the horse as a ‘happy equine athlete’ and ‘team-mate’ may have bought the sport a little time in a world increasingly conscious of animal exploitation. But it also created a necessity for the FEI to sweep everything under the carpet that wasn’t all sunshine and lollipops for the horses. Doing this required a gigantic carpet, because there isn’t much about modern horse sport that does not bother the horses. It made enforcement of the rules impossible and public relations a nightmare.”

 

[SantaVera]

Well that's the final nail in the coffin for the classical art of dressage then. Tragic, pathetic and the worst news. Poor horses.

Completely agree

 

[shortstuff99]

The reason given was that weak young horses do work behind the vertical but grow out of it as they strengthen.

The opinion became so widespread that i just accepted it as true a while ago. I don't see any reason in that for removing penalising btv from higher level tests, though.

That's interesting because logic would think that a young horse would rather be up and above the contact to use the neck to balance.

Or is it a symptom of hyper mobile horses and changing training "rules" to suit?

 

[Wizpop]

As a dressage judge, albeit at the lower levels, I am more than curious as to how judge training will change in light of this. I can imagine it could really “split the ranks.” I have absolutely no problem with saying that I can’t, and won’t be able to judge under this new rule if it is actively practised.

 

[shortstuff99]

As a dressage judge, albeit at the lower levels, I am more than curious as to how judge training will change in light of this. I can imagine it could really “split the ranks.” I have absolutely no problem with saying that I can’t, and won’t be able to judge under this new rule if it is actively practised.

I was wondering about this. Now everything is a guide surely judge preference will become more and not less as now it can't be enforced?

 

[sbloom]

Well that's the final nail in the coffin for the classical art of dressage then.

Almost exactly the words I was going to post although to me it's the death of any form of classical correct dressage in the competition arena.

The writing was on the wall many years ago; it's why I stopped competing.

Me too, 2003 Euros at Hickstead put paid to it for me.

It has been agreed among top trainers for many years now that BTV training (not rollkür), is correct for young horses.

A complete and utter lack of understanding of balance and healthy movement.

Take a look at some of Charlotte's tests on Valegro, she's got a heck of a grip on the reins.

No, i can't ride anywhere near as well as she does but I'm not quite sure where she gets her reputation for being totally sympathetic from. She definitely has a "drive up to the contact" method.

What she does do incredibly is derotate the horse's ribcage, in Sweden they have owners and top riders ride the same horses, she can straighten a horse like no other. Plenty to like less though, too.

The reason given was that weak young horses do work behind the vertical but grow out of it as they strengthen.

I will never believe that it is acceptable to that level, moments of it, sure, but working that way for more than a moment is harmful. Full stop.

Or is it a symptom of hyper mobile horses and changing training "rules" to suit?

Yep. Money talks, breeding is hard, so they breed what wins, it's a sad vicious circle. It started about 20 years ago, maybe more, when they allowed the horse to come TO the vertical on the piaffe and that was on the back of Nicole Uphoff Becker and Bonfire winning despite breaking guidelines.

 

[Penguin_Toes]

I had, perhaps naively, thought things were getting a bit better. The current Olympic gold medalist (Jessica von Bredow-Werndl) seemed to ride so sympathetically and then that American lady (Sabine?) seemed to knock everyone's socks off with her beautiful riding.

I don't have the eye some of you guys do, perhaps I am wrong about all that, there just seemed to be a bit of a change afoot

 

[Cortez]

I had, perhaps naively, thought things were getting a bit better. The current Olympic gold medalist (Jessica von Bredow-Werndl) seemed to ride so sympathetically and then that American lady (Sabine?) seemed to knock everyone's socks off with her beautiful riding.

I don't have the eye some of you guys do, perhaps I am wrong about all that, there just seemed to be a bit of a change afoot

I don’t watch anymore so haven’t seen either of them, but if it is as you describe that shows that the judges are rewarding the right thing. I had some hope when Valegro was competing, but there were still some AWFUL rides winning and dreadful sights in the arena, and worse in the warm up.

 

[sbloom]

There may be some more sympathetic riders but there are still plenty of horses going round at top level in serious dysfunction. Dressage ("training") is supposed to benefit our horses, not break them down mentally and physically. Many "cope" with it, but few are truly functional. It's a high bar, and I'm a realist too that that bar is a long way off for nearly all of us, but we can keep plugging away trying to make the rules better...instead they get worse.

 

[Penguin_Toes]

I don’t watch anymore so haven’t seen either of them, but if it is as you describe that shows that the judges are rewarding the right thing. I had some hope when Valegro was competing, but there were still some AWFUL rides winning and dreadful sights in the arena, and worse in the warm up.

I might be wrong, I often can't see things until they are pointed out to me when it comes to riding, it's really frustrating

 

[Cortez]

The sport now is unrecognisable from even just 30 years ago when I started out. The “classical” foundation is 500 years old, some will say even older, and the modern horse is simply a different beast. I believe they are forging the sport around the breeding and changing it to suit what horses now are able to do, rather than using the training to help the horse. I find it ugly and distressing to watch. Human vanity is never edifying, when it involves actual cruelty even more so.