Dressage Discussion- FEI removes the principles of dressage (rule 401) and moves to guidelines only, implications for future of dressage.

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

The BTV movement has already trickled down to the everyday and/or unskilled rider - find me one video that isn't BTV on social media, it's either that or they are completely the other way with no saddle or bridle (nothing wrong with that, just mean that there is no inbetween). I actively skip past 99% of the horse videos that crop up now as I can't bear watching downhill, tense and unhappy horses - not to mention how disgustingly common draw/side reins are!!

 

[eggs]

About 8 years ago I was at a convention and a German vet was presenting. It was in the days of Rollkur and he was asked about it. Whilst he certainly did not advocate the use of rollkur he did mention that the confirmation of the modern dressage horse - length of neck and space under the throat amongst others - made it to much easier for a horse to go btv

We definitely seem to be reaping the results of modern dressage breeding unfortunately.

 

[Chianti]

Take a look at some of Charlotte's tests on Valegro, she's got a heck of a grip on the reins.

No, i can't ride anywhere near as well as she does but I'm not quite sure where she gets her reputation for being totally sympathetic from. She definitely has a "drive up to the contact" method.
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I've often thought that as well. I'm low level happy hacker but to me she always used to look a bit stiff. I don't watch dressage any more - some of the movement is so forced and unnatural that I can't bear it when the horse goes on to be placed or win.

 

[eahotson]

Anyone read this? I haven't but it's quite an eyeopener.

“The advent of the FEI code of conduct and, subsequently, the social construct of the horse as a ‘happy equine athlete’ and ‘team-mate’ may have bought the sport a little time in a world increasingly conscious of animal exploitation. But it also created a necessity for the FEI to sweep everything under the carpet that wasn’t all sunshine and lollipops for the horses. Doing this required a gigantic carpet, because there isn’t much about modern horse sport that does not bother the horses. It made enforcement of the rules impossible and public relations a nightmare.”

View attachment 107502

Yes and it's extremely depressing.

 

[eahotson]

I was so disappointed to hear of this rule change yesterday, but not surprised.

This may be a reach, but I'm personally seeing a trickle down of how this bias towards BTV at higher levels was already affecting the wider equestrian community, and horse welfare as a whole.

In many many horse sale adverts I see, the horse is having its neck pulled into a curve just for a standing photo. People think this looks 'pretty'. Where did they get that idea from? In the ridden videos, they're riding the horse with heavy hands and pulling it BTV. Is it a stretch to imagine that maybe top level, Olympian riders have influenced this aesthetic? In the same way that every tom, dick and harry are now putting their horse in a tight flash noseband as the default, when that never used to be the case? Even 20 years ago, I don't remember seeing any horses in flashes.

It also cannot be a coincidence that all the horses I have known with persistent lameness issues have had owners who focused on and competed them in dressage.

This video of the Olympic Games in 1964 is an interesting watch. Dressage looked completely different back then. I'm not saying that it was perfect, but the horses look a lot softer, freer, more fluid. None of these ridiculous exaggerated gates like a circus performance.

I'm just so sad on behalf of the horses who have to endure this kind of training, and that the people at the 'top' are influencing the every day equestrian to ride in a way that is incredibly damaging to the horse, and will inevitably cause them to break in the long run. Just sad all around.

have you seen the width of a lot of nose bands.

 

[Palindrome]

Just saw this and thought of this thread. That's the logo for equestrian sports for Paris 2024. Great hind leg action and not BTV. He is bitless to boot but not sure the FEI would approve.

 

[ester]

Saddle looks a tad long though

 

[reynold]

The rider looks more than 20% of the horse's weight

 

[Cortez]

The rider looks more than 20% of the horse's weight

I think it's a bird, so "rides light"........

 

[j1ffy]

I think it's a bird, so "rides light"........

Or something entirely different.... https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-2024-likened-to-clitoris-in-trainers-phryges

 

[JGC]

No comment on the Paris mascot

I used to watch all the top-level dressage, but I just can't anymore. I watch Ingrid Klimke's tests as I am a fan of hers and I feel like I can learn from her.

On the other hand, I do think we have to be aware of not idolising the past or other areas of dressage, and really critically analyse all (e.g. I was not a huge fan of high-level competition 30 years ago, when it was Rembrandt and Bonfire, and one of my biggest equestrian disappointments was a week's training with a top classical name).

 

[shortstuff99]

No comment on the Paris mascot

I used to watch all the top-level dressage, but I just can't anymore. I watch Ingrid Klimke's tests as I am a fan of hers and I feel like I can learn from her.

On the other hand, I do think we have to be aware of not idolising the past or other areas of dressage, and really critically analyse all (e.g. I was not a huge fan of high-level competition 30 years ago, when it was Rembrandt and Bonfire, and one of my biggest equestrian disappointments was a week's training with a top classical name).

I think Bonfire was one of the reasons we have ended up with the current modern dressage mess

 

[JGC]

I think Bonfire was one of the reasons we have ended up with the current modern dressage mess

Indeed, I mentioned because someone had referred to competitive dressage 30 years ago

 

[ycbm]

View attachment 107792
Just saw this and thought of this thread. That's the logo for equestrian sports for Paris 2024. Great hind leg action and not BTV. He is bitless to boot but not sure the FEI would approve.

I don't know if I've just lost my sense of humour, but that looks completely disrespectful to the elite athletes involved,to me, both the riders and the horses.
.

 

[sbloom]

Indeed, I mentioned because someone had referred to competitive dressage 30 years ago

Yep, Nicole U-B struggled to get submission so used RK signalling the move to this training technique for others as she kept winning.

 

[Palindrome]

I don't know if I've just lost my sense of humour, but that looks completely disrespectful to the elite athletes involved,to me, both the riders and the horses.
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why?
It's a little cartoon character drawn for every sport:

https://tickets.paris2024.org/obj/media/FR-Paris2024/grille-tarifaire.pdf

It's probably more inspired of a SJ horse as SJ is much more popular in France than dressage or any other equine discipline.

 

[ycbm]

why?

It's just how I feel about it, it's the immediate reaction it raises in me. Turning the horses and riders that work so hard to get there into a joke cartoon.

As my OH's French tutor says "it's very French".
.

 

[ester]

Olympic mascots are always daft, be weird if they weren't

 

[Cortez]

Yep, Nicole U-B struggled to get submission so used RK signalling the move to this training technique for others as she kept winning.

I don't think it was Nicole Uphoff so much, more Anky van Grunsven and Bonfire, or rather her trainer, that really pushed the rollkür trend. I watched them both warm up and don't recall Rembrandt being ridden that way, and I saw him before he was famous too - being a very naughty boy.

 

[sbloom]

I don't think it was Nicole Uphoff so much, more Anky van Grunsven and Bonfire, or rather her trainer, that really pushed the rollkür trend. I watched them both warm up and don't recall Rembrandt being ridden that way, and I saw him before he was famous too - being a very naughty boy.

It absolutely was NU-B, without her and Rembrandt there would have been no Anky. RK was used to control that "naughtiness". NUB wasn't a big trainer promoting herself to others, and Isabell was also training in the same way, but Sjef and Anky took it and ran, with very good marketing. Discussions on the Ultimate Dressage Bulletin Board around 2000 were very clear that it started with Nicole and her quest, as a petite rider, for submission on a very tricky/strong horse. Of course rider size should have nowt to do with selecting such a training technique...

Rollkur Started with Nicole Uphoff & Isabell Werth - Writing of Riding

Would you believe that rollkur started with Nicole Uphoff and Isabell Werth? Nicole Uphoff may have retired from the sport, but Isabell Werth continues to use this ugly training method.

www.writingofriding.com

 

[Cortez]

It absolutely was NU-B, without her and Rembrandt there would have been no Anky. RK was used to control that "naughtiness". NUB wasn't a big trainer promoting herself to others, and Isabell was also training in the same way, but Sjef and Anky took it and ran, with very good marketing. Discussions on the Ultimate Dressage Bulletin Board around 2000 were very clear that it started with Nicole and her quest, as a petite rider, for submission on a very tricky/strong horse. Of course rider size should have nowt to do with selecting such a training technique...

Rollkur Started with Nicole Uphoff & Isabell Werth - Writing of Riding

Would you believe that rollkur started with Nicole Uphoff and Isabell Werth? Nicole Uphoff may have retired from the sport, but Isabell Werth continues to use this ugly training method.

www.writingofriding.com

If you (or rather Anne Gribbons) say so, but like I say - I was actually there....

 

[Caol Ila]

I really want to know why a track from the Chieftains' live Belfast concert, from 1991, is playing in the background of the Bill Woods video.

Carry on with your regularly scheduled thread.

 

[sbloom]

If you (or rather Anne Gribbons) say so, but like I say - I was actually there....

I hear you, that she didn't use it when you saw her, but she did use it, and was seen to be the first, some years before Anky.

Deep and Round – Still controversial – The Horse Magazine

The music on some of the videos is very odd!

 

[Caol Ila]

Bill is clearly a Chieftains fan. Second video, the one with Reiner Klimke, has music from the same album. This is a fun game.

The other two videos of Nicole and Isabel, also from that album.

It shows you how well you can ride to Irish trad. Depending on what the rider and tunes are doing, the horse's footfalls sometimes fall perfectly in time (well, Matt Molloy's 'Mason's Apron' solo is a bit too fast for Rembrandt's piris, but many of the others worked surprisingly well).

That's probably not meant to be the take home message from the videos.

 

[Caol Ila]

On a more serious note, even those videos feel a bit dated, given what we know about how horses show stress.

Woods says regarding Werth and Gigolo, "She certainly doesn't look like she's stressing the horse, he's deep but he's not against her...." The horse looks stressed to me with the constant tail ringing.

 

[Cortez]

On a more serious note, even those videos feel a bit dated, given what we know about how horses show stress.

Woods says regarding Werth and Gigolo, "She certainly doesn't look like she's stressing the horse, he's deep but he's not against her...." The horse looks stressed to me with the constant tail ringing.

Isabell Werth was one of the reasons I started to fall out of love with modern dressage.

 

[tristar]

it was noted in ``dressage mag`` 1990`s that N U B used deep and round to limit the vision of spooky objects during the warm up.

although no doubt it strayed into hyper flexion

 

[shortstuff99]

In light if recent changes with FEI dressage I would say poor Klimke was proved wrong in this final quote of the above article

Here I have great worries. I stress again: there is no reason to put the classical art of riding on the testing stand and to demand that we must ride differently now. There have been artists at all times who have been experimenting and they had success with it. But that does not mean that the classical principles of training horses – as described in the guidelines of the Official Handbook – are under question.”

 

[sbloom]

it was noted in ``dressage mag`` 1990`s that N U B used deep and round to limit the vision of spooky objects during the warm up.

although no doubt it strayed into hyper flexion

Define the difference....I don't think anyone at the time thought one was okay and one not.

 

[tristar]

perhaps they are not questioning

just changing the rules to suit their own needs, ends, un challenged


until some brave soul jumps up and says, oiy!