Dressage Discussion- FEI removes the principles of dressage (rule 401) and moves to guidelines only, implications for future of dressage.

[sbloom]

I had, perhaps naively, thought things were getting a bit better. The current Olympic gold medalist (Jessica von Bredow-Werndl) seemed to ride so sympathetically and then that American lady (Sabine?) seemed to knock everyone's socks off with her beautiful riding.

I don't have the eye some of you guys do, perhaps I am wrong about all that, there just seemed to be a bit of a change afoot

Jessica was featured on the Epona TV FB page I'm sure, can't find it, the page is worth a follow.

 

[Miss_Millie]

I was so disappointed to hear of this rule change yesterday, but not surprised.

This may be a reach, but I'm personally seeing a trickle down of how this bias towards BTV at higher levels was already affecting the wider equestrian community, and horse welfare as a whole.

In many many horse sale adverts I see, the horse is having its neck pulled into a curve just for a standing photo. People think this looks 'pretty'. Where did they get that idea from? In the ridden videos, they're riding the horse with heavy hands and pulling it BTV. Is it a stretch to imagine that maybe top level, Olympian riders have influenced this aesthetic? In the same way that every tom, dick and harry are now putting their horse in a tight flash noseband as the default, when that never used to be the case? Even 20 years ago, I don't remember seeing any horses in flashes.

It also cannot be a coincidence that all the horses I have known with persistent lameness issues have had owners who focused on and competed them in dressage.

This video of the Olympic Games in 1964 is an interesting watch. Dressage looked completely different back then. I'm not saying that it was perfect, but the horses look a lot softer, freer, more fluid. None of these ridiculous exaggerated gates like a circus performance.

I'm just so sad on behalf of the horses who have to endure this kind of training, and that the people at the 'top' are influencing the every day equestrian to ride in a way that is incredibly damaging to the horse, and will inevitably cause them to break in the long run. Just sad all around.

 

[sbloom]

There were definitely loads of horses in flashes 20 years ago, I last bought a ridden horse 22 years ago and it was very hard to find non-flash padded nosebands then. The horses back then looks softer, more fluid, had pure paces...now there were downsides and Celeste Lazaris has been taken to task for criticising the musculature on one of these horses from way back when, but she's right, they weren't perfect either. But there were very few pain faces or wringing tails and horses weren't injected back then. I have no idea if the situation would have allowed bute, even if banned in theory, or if it even existed, but I know which model I'd rather follow for overall horse health.

 

[ycbm]

Flashing tails used to be marked down on the rule book but that got removed too, wrongly IMO.

 

[shortstuff99]

It interests me that some say that the rules have had to change as modern horses aren't capable of performing dressage in a classical fashion. My question is why? Any horse should be capable of being trained that way, that was the point. Is it to train horses faster for glory/money?

I would also love to hear top FEI riders takes on this, whether they agree with the change or not and why.

Yes I know I am a fan of classical riding, but that doesn't mean I don't want to hear other views.

 

[sbloom]

It interests me that some say that the rules have had to change as modern horses aren't capable of performing dressage in a classical fashion. My question is why? Any horse should be capable of being trained that way, that was the point. Is it to train horses faster for glory/money?

I would also love to hear top FEI riders takes on this, whether they agree with the change or not and why.

Yes I know I am a fan of classical riding, but that doesn't mean I don't want to hear other views.

They are entirely capable, but we have been lured in by accuracy (Bonfire) and expression/athleticism. And yes, ultimately it's about money, if you discount our impressionability on the first two factors.

Once Bonfire started winning then the game was on - he was ridden in Rollkur to enable the submission which gave the accuracy and contained his energy and "strength". When mistakes are dinged more harshly than way of going issues then everything changes. If you'd handed him to any of the modern holistic trainers they'd have been able to take him a different route. These horses need helping emotionally and physically, including making their bodies more stable, not more expressive. We don't have networks that understand this work any more, but we do have injections and all sorts which cover up the issues we're creating.

 

[Cortez]

What happened IMO is that the emphasis went from collection to extension. From expression to accuracy, and from art to athleticism. The modern dressage sportshorse is very good at the latter, the classical baroque horse is very good at the former.

Laughing at the question if bute was "even" available 20 years ago : bute has been in use for nearly 50 years, steroid injections for over 30 . I have jodhpurs older than that.

 

[sbloom]

What happened IMO is that the emphasis went from collection to extension. From expression to accuracy, and from art to athleticism. The modern dressage sportshorse is very good at the latter, the classical baroque horse is very good at the former.

Laughing at the question if bute was "even" available 20 years ago : bute has been in use for nearly 50 years, steroid injections for over 30 . I have jodhpurs older than that.

I wasn't talking about 20 years ago, I'm talking about the 1964 video! I have clothes older than that too (and used bute more than 20 years ago)

 

[teapot]

I see a 'nothing's changed' post has already been done by the Talland/Ingestre combined social media

 

[shortstuff99]

Yes I saw that! They said if it was a rule then there would have to be a sanction for a circle being oval, but there is...point deductions...

 

[LEC]

The 1964 dr could be done by eventers now IMO. Which proves how far horses have changed. Those horses are as long as an oil tanker and now they are much shorter coupled. Personally, I think 30 people should sit down and decide what perfect/good looks like in each movement with a range of the best horses over the years. Look at it all properly and in depth, edit it together and then release it so people understand and can aim for it. I think it would help a lot with social licence, education and trickle down effect.

 

[Michen]

Words from a very high level, “in the club” dressage rider that I know. Not many horses would keep up and stay sound with the work demanded by CDJ.

 

[LEC]

You only need to look at her BD results to realise a lot of horses have disappeared and don’t reappear with young riders or get sold.

 

[ycbm]

Words from a very high level, “in the club” dressage rider that I know. Not many horses would keep up and stay sound with the work demanded by CDJ.

Even Carl calls her "brave" , in the context of meaning that she asks for a lot more than he would from young horses.
.

 

[Cortez]

Words from a very high level, “in the club” dressage rider that I know. Not many horses would keep up and stay sound with the work demanded by CDJ.

Unfortunately this is what it takes to get to the top. Carl is a fundamentally kind rider and doesn’t like to push horses over the edge, unlike CDJ.

 

[tristar]

ah but how cdj was feted when winning gold for gb, who dared say, well they were not sure if they liked that way of riding, no, because she was the winner she must be good.

mind you i must say sorry to her, for using her as an example, there are far worse.

its more a case they are adapting the rules, the principles of training to the modern horse, who is in general large, not bred from ancestors with the thousands of generations behind them to pass on the abilities natural to the true dressage horse.

they are like a modern breed bred by those who do not really understand the classical principles, modern men and women with no real idea of the ultimate aim, but who have business plans and follow fashion.

why do they not allow for example the horse to go above the bit, not just momentarily but while it adjusts loss of balance, which would be far more normal than curling back, nearly all young horses go above the bit when starting work, i never knew one that went behind the vertical, and whilst they are talking about horses who are competing it seems another move away from natural impulses.

but money talks, and its like the difference between making money and creating prestige and glory, and true art where only the talented and truly dedicated and humble who love horses can go, like art can never die, once seen it lives in the minds eye

 

[Red-1]

ah but how cdj was feted when winning gold for gb, who dared say, well they were not sure if they liked that way of riding, no, because she was the winner she must be good.

mind you i must say sorry to her, for using her as an example, there are far worse.

I thought their performance was wonderful. It wasn't necessarily the style of riding for me, it was the relationship and brilliance that shone out from them as a partnership. That partnership really worked and was a delight to watch.

I will wait to see what difference the rule to guidance change will make. I suspect none, as people were not following it even when it was a rule. What would make a change would be in training judges, to give low scores for not following the guidance. Like in showing, what would make the difference would be if a panel of vets spun obese horses, or at least they could be send down the line for being out of condition.

 

[sbloom]

why do they not allow for example the horse to go above the bit, not just momentarily but while it adjusts loss of balance, which would be far more normal than curling back, nearly all young horses go above the bit when starting work, i never knew one that went behind the vertical, and whilst they are talking about horses who are competing it seems another move away from natural impulses.

I agree, you barely ever used to see horses curling btv, no matter how young and unbalanced.

 

[Cortez]

I agree, you barely ever used to see horses curling btv, no matter how young and unbalanced.

That was because people hadn’t heard of “going on the bit” and it kind of wasn’t a thing, in this corner of the world at least.

 

[reynold]

We've all seen what has happened to many dog breeds after human tinkering to achieve a 'look' that was deemed beautiful. Unsoundness, early death, misery for the dogs in so many cases.

IMO the breeding of these modern dressage horses - where rules are changed to suit the horses produced by the breeders in the interest of modern 'fashion' in competition - is producing a horse which might well have 'flashy' paces and gain high marks but are ultimately destined for a short life, probably only lengthened by joint injections.

I despair at the thought of the pain the horses in modern dressage must in many cases suffer in daily existence to support the extremes that are getting high marks in competition. I foresee a time when the modern dressage horse breeding will have to be modified or we're going to end up with horses with a useful ridden lifespan of 7 years or so. As stated above, many of CD horses disappear after about the age of 8.

This is trickling down to lower level dressage where people now feel they have to have one of these flashy dressage horses in order to get placed or win. However along with the breeding of flashy paces, etc the temperaments of the horses also seem to have worsened and more and more are basically unsuitable for the 'average' rider that is buying them. Again this leads to unhappy horses, not just at the top but at all levels.

This downgrading of the rule to 'guidance' is just another nail in the coffin of horse welfare. What the 'average' rider sees their idols doing at the top level with lots of photos and videos on social media they will try and copy on their own horses, much to the detriment of horses far beyond the small pool of top riders. It has been like that for decades but has been exacerbated by modern social media availability. It's not just social license we need, it's riders to only post responsible examples to social media and realise more that what they post is likely to be copied by less experienced riders.

I'm another who is interested to find out what guidance/instructions are being issued by BD to the judges at the lower levels following this change. With (as per CH column in this weeks H&H) 90% of dressage horses competing at Advanced Medium or below we need to try and influence the mass of riders, not just the top elite, to better riding in the interests of the horse. This has to start with influencing trainers and coaches, many of whom are trained by the BHS.

 

[tristar]

We've all seen what has happened to many dog breeds after human tinkering to achieve a 'look' that was deemed beautiful. Unsoundness, early death, misery for the dogs in so many cases.

IMO the breeding of these modern dressage horses - where rules are changed to suit the horses produced by the breeders in the interest of modern 'fashion' in competition - is producing a horse which might well have 'flashy' paces and gain high marks but are ultimately destined for a short life, probably only lengthened by joint injections.

I despair at the thought of the pain the horses in modern dressage must in many cases suffer in daily existence to support the extremes that are getting high marks in competition. I foresee a time when the modern dressage horse breeding will have to be modified or we're going to end up with horses with a useful ridden lifespan of 7 years or so. As stated above, many of CD horses disappear after about the age of 8.

This is trickling down to lower level dressage where people now feel they have to have one of these flashy dressage horses in order to get placed or win. However along with the breeding of flashy paces, etc the temperaments of the horses also seem to have worsened and more and more are basically unsuitable for the 'average' rider that is buying them. Again this leads to unhappy horses, not just at the top but at all levels.

This downgrading of the rule to 'guidance' is just another nail in the coffin of horse welfare. What the 'average' rider sees their idols doing at the top level with lots of photos and videos on social media they will try and copy on their own horses, much to the detriment of horses far beyond the small pool of top riders. It has been like that for decades but has been exacerbated by modern social media availability. It's not just social license we need, it's riders to only post responsible examples to social media and realise more that what they post is likely to be copied by less experienced riders.

I'm another who is interested to find out what guidance/instructions are being issued by BD to the judges at the lower levels following this change. With (as per CH column in this weeks H&H) 90% of dressage horses competing at Advanced Medium or below we need to try and influence the mass of riders, not just the top elite, to better riding in the interests of the horse. This has to start with influencing trainers and coaches, many of whom are trained by the BHS.

sadly its all ready been like that for many years, i have known quite a few horses finished at 8 years, and not just with one problem, mainly warmbloods, and that was 35 years ago, when it first started to grow as a modern sport available to many riders when venues started to hold dressage comps.

i also worry about the lives of horses today, daily training etc

 

[tristar]

I agree, you barely ever used to see horses curling btv, no matter how young and unbalanced.

yes, that is what they are, young and unbalanced, and natural and will come to work in a different overall frame as they develop and find their own individual way of ``seeking the contact``

 

[tristar]

just had a look at the fei, patrick kittle is on the dressage committee, ho hum

 

[sbloom]

yes, that is what they are, young and unbalanced, and natural and will come to work in a different overall frame as they develop and find their own individual way of ``seeking the contact``

Of course, but we're considering specifically that you used to see young horses above the bit when they lost their balance, as they'd always been able to use their head and neck as a balancing rod. They had their polls as the highest point, it's just the head was lower and more in front of the vertical as a novice horse, the frame shortened and lifted as they progressed, from horizontal balance into an uphill balance.

Now we seem to be in a place where curling is much more common, alongside a school of thought that it's still utterly natural and normal to do this - is it breeding or is it training? Probably both. And the horses HAVE to be on the forehand to do this, any appearance of being in correct balance is usually fake.

I know a beautiful horse with a new owner who is having to work damned hard to undo curling, mainly caused by training. I think most classical trainers would say that it doesn't stem from a natural lack of balance and is much harder to correct and develop than a horse that pops up above the contact at times.

I know I'm not telling you anything you don't know, it's just focusing on this difference, not the fact that young horses are unbalanced.

 

[Cortez]

I think horses being more often behind the vertical than above the bit nowadays also stems somewhat from the type of horse being used. 30+ years ago WB's were rare and most sport type horses in the British Isles were various percentages of TB which tend to be built on a more downhill, horizontal plane. There was also an enormous amount less fiddling with the reins and cheating the horse into a shape. Being above the bit and hollow in the back because of resistance is not any better than being behind it BTW, both are wrong.

 

[sbloom]

I think horses being more often behind the vertical than above the bit nowadays also stems somewhat from the type of horse being used. 30+ years ago WB's were rare and most sport type horses in the British Isles were various percentages of TB which tend to be built on a more downhill, horizontal plane. There was also an enormous amount less fiddling with the reins and cheating the horse into a shape. Being above the bit and hollow in the back because of resistance is not any better than being behind it BTW, both are wrong.

Agreed, but the former is often much easier to correct.

 

[quizzie]

I think horses being more often behind the vertical than above the bit nowadays also stems somewhat from the type of horse being used. 30+ years ago WB's were rare and most sport type horses in the British Isles were various percentages of TB which tend to be built on a more downhill, horizontal plane. There was also an enormous amount less fiddling with the reins and cheating the horse into a shape. Being above the bit and hollow in the back because of resistance is not any better than being behind it BTW, both are wrong.

This is so true

I evented for most of my life….typical TB crosses, at the very best built on a horizontal plane. As youngsters, they needed to be ridden forwards and gradually encouraged into the contact, and hopefully….eventually…..lifting their forehand, as they got stronger behind.

However….I have just bought my first dressage bred young horse…and oh my goodness, he is totally different, especially in being naturally uphill in front with big paces, that as yet he has no idea how to control.

It would be very easy to ride him BTV, as he just wants to go forward, but then loses confidence due to being naturally overpowered. I am having to learn a whole new language of supporting the front end without restricting him, but dialling down the power so he has time to balance.

I am lucky that I have as much time as I need to produce him, but until I rode him, despite having had some “entertaining ” event horses in the past …. I had no idea what a different ballpark I was getting into!

 

[Hallo2012]

Unfortunately this is what it takes to get to the top. Carl is a fundamentally kind rider and doesn’t like to push horses over the edge, unlike CDJ.

agree.

i wouldn't train with her even if it was for free, i like my horse to love their jobs and i see too many of hers who quite obviously detest every single second of it

 

[scats]

agree.

i wouldn't train with her even if it was for free, i like my horse to love their jobs and i see too many of hers who quite obviously detest every single second of it

When I read her autobiography, I got the feeling that her drive to be successful went above anything else. It’s no doubt that it’s that level of determination that gets you to the very top nowadays, but the older I get, the more I struggle to be ok with that.
Carl is the perfect balance for me. The welfare of his horses comes absolutely before anything else, even before his desire to be in the medals.

 

[Hallo2012]

When I read her autobiography, I got the feeling that her drive to be successful went above anything else. It’s no doubt that it’s that level of determination that gets you to the very top nowadays, but the older I get, the more I struggle to be ok with that.
Carl is the perfect balance for me. The welfare of his horses comes absolutely before anything else, even before his desire to be in the medals.

yes deffo. a younger me would have been ok with CDJ, the older crusty version just wants a nice day out with a happy horse.