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Not your problem OP. If it’s a mis-represented sale, that’s very much the seller’s problem.
Do I have grounds for a refund?
- Thread starter Lexie01
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I would argue that this is an admission that the pony is not fit for purpose
You're not asking her to buy the pony back, you're asking for a refund on something that is not as described and not fit for purpose.
I thought she was originally saying that the problem was that you did not know how to prepare the pony to get it to measure in. If that is the case then if she takes it back she can get it remeasured and get an LHC and resell.
If she is so confident that she get the pony to measure in without breaking any rules then perhaps she can offer to come and help you do so or is she changing her tune now and saying the horse will not measure and it actually bigger than she originally thought and she made a mistake in thinking it was a 148?
How long had the dealer had the horse for. Could she have picked it up cheaply because previous owners thought it would go over-height or done as you did presumed it would measure in because of the previous measurements and not bothered to put a stick to it to check how big with shoes on.
Very few horses and ponies are sold with LHC so most heights advertised are estimated. Very few ponies without a LHC advertised as 148 are probably spot on 148. Would you have felt differently if the pony measured at 148.50 and be expecting a refund again no use to you but only a little over-height. She was advertising at 148 not 146.8 so she must have known the pony had grown since it was last measured if she advertised it at 148 and possibly measured it herself to know it was not 146.8 any more. To be fair I expect there are ponies advertised as full up 148 when they are smaller as people will pay more for a 148 than 143.
I think you need legal advice are you a BSH gold member as you can get legal advice through them.
If she is so confident that she get the pony to measure in without breaking any rules then perhaps she can offer to come and help you do so or is she changing her tune now and saying the horse will not measure and it actually bigger than she originally thought and she made a mistake in thinking it was a 148?
How long had the dealer had the horse for. Could she have picked it up cheaply because previous owners thought it would go over-height or done as you did presumed it would measure in because of the previous measurements and not bothered to put a stick to it to check how big with shoes on.
Very few horses and ponies are sold with LHC so most heights advertised are estimated. Very few ponies without a LHC advertised as 148 are probably spot on 148. Would you have felt differently if the pony measured at 148.50 and be expecting a refund again no use to you but only a little over-height. She was advertising at 148 not 146.8 so she must have known the pony had grown since it was last measured if she advertised it at 148 and possibly measured it herself to know it was not 146.8 any more. To be fair I expect there are ponies advertised as full up 148 when they are smaller as people will pay more for a 148 than 143.
I think you need legal advice are you a BSH gold member as you can get legal advice through them.
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She sounds lovely. I'm going to suggest the unmentionable (feeling brave this morning). Why not go ahead and compete in the bigger class even though it's all a bit annoying? Maybe she'll do brilliantly. It seems a shame that this cutie could get into wrong hands.
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Get all your stuff together , screen shot all texts and messages , write out a timeline of everything that happened while clear . This is something I do every single time I ring someone about a horse .
I think ( I am not a lawyer ) that she has made a admission in that message that she has sold you goods that are not fit of purpose .
You have no choice now, find an equine lawyer today and ring them .
I think ( I am not a lawyer ) that she has made a admission in that message that she has sold you goods that are not fit of purpose .
You have no choice now, find an equine lawyer today and ring them .
It's been a legal issue from the start.
The JMB are obviously now aware of the disparity between the height measurements taken in 2019 and 2021. When/if the pony is presented for re measuring by whichever party, the officials will be closely scrutinising the pony for issues of being nobbled to measure in.
It is an art to get a slightly too tall pony to measure in, it can be done without necessarily resorting to illegal or unethical practices.
The JMB are obviously now aware of the disparity between the height measurements taken in 2019 and 2021. When/if the pony is presented for re measuring by whichever party, the officials will be closely scrutinising the pony for issues of being nobbled to measure in.
It is an art to get a slightly too tall pony to measure in, it can be done without necessarily resorting to illegal or unethical practices.
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The pony measured 15.1 on the stick it’s difficult to get rid of three inches .
Tbf, it's 3 cm, not inches.
Agree that even 3 cm is a lot to lose if the pony's feet had not been left too long and she was truly relaxed when she measured over.
It's definitely a legal issue. The OP has kept communications between her and the seller, which is excellent.
Agree that even 3 cm is a lot to lose if the pony's feet had not been left too long and she was truly relaxed when she measured over.
It's definitely a legal issue. The OP has kept communications between her and the seller, which is excellent.
I don't know a lot about it but I think competitor age is linked to pony height. I sold a16h horse to a very tall twin when her sister wanted a 148 to get into the age classes and the 16h had to compete against adults.
Also, there is a question of value here, the pony is worth thousands less if it's over height.
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I do several vettings a week and I would absolutely not under any circumstances get involved with establishing the height of a pony at a vetting. Far too many factors in play. I'd turn it the other way round and say that if the height of a pony is vital to whether or not you buy, and it hasn't got a LHC, then why wouldn't you take a measuring stick with you when you go to try it? It's something that anyone can do, it doesn't have to be a vet.
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I think the cost of a 148 jumping pony is significantly higher than a 151 horse, so it probably wouldn't sit well with OP!
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It’s not just the price the child can’t do pony classes .
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Not only can the child not do pony classes but the horse is very small to do horse classes. Very difficult situation. Years ago at our local Riding Club a girl upgraded from a 14hh to a 14.2hh, two of them in fact. Many comments about them being over height but no-one ever demanded they be measured. They were very successful in 14.2hh classes locally but when she came to sell them they had to be measured and were found to be 14.3hh. She also bought what she said was a 13.2 and competed with that. It towered over my 13.2hh who did have a LFC but no-one challenged her over it. They were a very mouthy family, I think it was deemed easier to just let it ride. Have to say I was extremely pleased that she did eventually get her comeuppance.
I think it's like buying a car without a valid MOT, you either factor in the cost of the MOT, and the fact its may not pass, or you buy with enough knowledge that you can sort it. Even if something has a Full certificate it can still measure out if challenged,
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/showing/five-horse-of-the-year-show-contenders-measure-out-301607
https://www.thejmbonline.co.uk/faq/FAQ.html
I have one that I think is about 14.2ish, in winter unfit no one would question that, in summer sometimes he looks 15hands, but would probably look small in a SHP 15 hand class, because everything else would be carrying extra weight and muscle. For showing or jumping he is worth less because he is in-between heights, if I was selling him, he has never been officially measured it would be at the buyers risk, and even if he had been measured, you couldn't guarantee he would pass measurement again. So like the MOT on a car, it passed on that day, but it doesn't mean it's roadworthy on the day you buy it. So unless the contract verbal or written, is that it the pony is suitable for the height class, which will come down to how it was advertised and described, it could be difficult to prove.
I would tell them I was going to the small claims court for the difference in value, between under and over height, and associated costs, and see if there is room for negotiation.
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/small-claims-court/
You could try BSPS WHP, they have height classes, to get it out.
https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/showing/five-horse-of-the-year-show-contenders-measure-out-301607
https://www.thejmbonline.co.uk/faq/FAQ.html
I have one that I think is about 14.2ish, in winter unfit no one would question that, in summer sometimes he looks 15hands, but would probably look small in a SHP 15 hand class, because everything else would be carrying extra weight and muscle. For showing or jumping he is worth less because he is in-between heights, if I was selling him, he has never been officially measured it would be at the buyers risk, and even if he had been measured, you couldn't guarantee he would pass measurement again. So like the MOT on a car, it passed on that day, but it doesn't mean it's roadworthy on the day you buy it. So unless the contract verbal or written, is that it the pony is suitable for the height class, which will come down to how it was advertised and described, it could be difficult to prove.
I would tell them I was going to the small claims court for the difference in value, between under and over height, and associated costs, and see if there is room for negotiation.
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/small-claims-court/
You could try BSPS WHP, they have height classes, to get it out.
Wouldn't part of the issue be that there isn't a bigger class? If you had a pony that measured out of the 128 class you could jump in the 138 class albeit at a disadvantage against full up ponies however after 148 you are then into adult/horse classes which is a much bigger ask.
I think the analogy is buying a car where the seller tells you it will definitely pass the MOT and then finding that it won't and it's going to cost a lot of money to get back on the road and you'll never be allowed to drive it on a motorway.
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If they advertised a pony as a 148cm jumping pony then surely the onus is on them to prove they didn't mis-advertise
These ponies go for top whack so its a bit more vital than them just shaking their heads and saying that it measured as 146.something two years ago and washing their hands of the situation - they should have sticked the pony at the yard seen it would be close and had it remeasured before guaranteeing it as a 148 contender with a LHC
Id ask them to to take the pony back, prepare him for remeasure then remeasure at their cost as what you bought is not what was advertised. There is a huge difference in price between a 148 than a 151 so its in their interests to do this
That's of course assuming the JMB would accept another measurement so close to the previous one as I understand they recorded it rather than giving you the option to walk away
These ponies go for top whack so its a bit more vital than them just shaking their heads and saying that it measured as 146.something two years ago and washing their hands of the situation - they should have sticked the pony at the yard seen it would be close and had it remeasured before guaranteeing it as a 148 contender with a LHC
Id ask them to to take the pony back, prepare him for remeasure then remeasure at their cost as what you bought is not what was advertised. There is a huge difference in price between a 148 than a 151 so its in their interests to do this
That's of course assuming the JMB would accept another measurement so close to the previous one as I understand they recorded it rather than giving you the option to walk away
Unless you have knowledge anyone who takes the sellers word that it will pass an MOT is naive, especially if they are paying full MOT prices.
I usually buy without a vetting, but I factor how much if I would lose should it have a problem. I buy budget cars with a full MOT privately, but expect to spend at least £500 sorting out anything that's likely to be wrong with it, I am not a mechanic, and it would have to be sorted at the local garage. The MOT just makes it legal to tax, insure and drive it to the garage, as long as it's safe to drive on the road. At the end of their life with me they are sold as spares or repair, with one month's MOT, so they can drive it to a garage or home if they want.
I usually buy without a vetting, but I factor how much if I would lose should it have a problem. I buy budget cars with a full MOT privately, but expect to spend at least £500 sorting out anything that's likely to be wrong with it, I am not a mechanic, and it would have to be sorted at the local garage. The MOT just makes it legal to tax, insure and drive it to the garage, as long as it's safe to drive on the road. At the end of their life with me they are sold as spares or repair, with one month's MOT, so they can drive it to a garage or home if they want.
Perhaps the difference between what the horse is worth now and what you paid would be less than the limit for small claims? You could take out as a horse and unaff, get it seen and sell it to a small adult (I have jumped 14.1hh ponies in adult classes no issues so it is possible) then claim for the difference? Obviously with legal advice first!
Good thought!
A friend of mine did this. He bought a point to pointer described as "fit and ready to race" and found that the horse stopped on the spot as soon as any other horse came up along side. He was told to sell the horse at auction to establish its market value and claim the difference. He won his case.
As a note of caution, though, the seller bankrupted themselves and never paid a penny.
A friend of mine did this. He bought a point to pointer described as "fit and ready to race" and found that the horse stopped on the spot as soon as any other horse came up along side. He was told to sell the horse at auction to establish its market value and claim the difference. He won his case.
As a note of caution, though, the seller bankrupted themselves and never paid a penny.
From the sounds of it the money you spent is very significant and you need to speak to an equine solicitor immediately, a few hundred thrown their way for an initial idea of your options is probably money well spent.
If she believes it’s because you didn’t prepare it properly then she should be able to get it measured in and she can then sell it as per her original advert, if she believes she won’t be able to do this then she has potentially misrepresented. However she did truthfully tell you it measured 146.8 on its last recorded measurement and if you did not state that the sale was dependent upon it measuring in at 148 or less then she may well not have misrepresented the sale at all.
If she believes it’s because you didn’t prepare it properly then she should be able to get it measured in and she can then sell it as per her original advert, if she believes she won’t be able to do this then she has potentially misrepresented. However she did truthfully tell you it measured 146.8 on its last recorded measurement and if you did not state that the sale was dependent upon it measuring in at 148 or less then she may well not have misrepresented the sale at all.
"it" was the word approx. I may be wrong but the pony advertised for sale may have been advertised as approx. 148 jumping pony. (red's post 78 also refers) that would be a red light to a potential buyer to get it measured.
I also wonder if the pony was sold by a dealer. Was it part of the dealer's stock or alternatively was it some sort of sales livery or similar arrangement and the professional was selling at her yard for a private owner.
I also wonder if the pony was sold by a dealer. Was it part of the dealer's stock or alternatively was it some sort of sales livery or similar arrangement and the professional was selling at her yard for a private owner.
The advert started with 'top class 148 showjumper' - very clear.
During the first few messages I had with the seller I asked if she had measured in at 148 as we couldn't go above it for juniors - although we needed a full up 148. I got the answer that yes she is a full up 148. I then saw the video she sent and I asked again as the horse looked on the big side. That is when she told me that the horse had had 2 annual measurements and that she measures 'no problem'.
Hope that helps clarify the situation
During the first few messages I had with the seller I asked if she had measured in at 148 as we couldn't go above it for juniors - although we needed a full up 148. I got the answer that yes she is a full up 148. I then saw the video she sent and I asked again as the horse looked on the big side. That is when she told me that the horse had had 2 annual measurements and that she measures 'no problem'.
Hope that helps clarify the situation
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The horse is clearly not fit for purpose so I think this will boil down to whether you bought from a dealer or a private seller. A dealer must accept the horse back if it's not fit for purpose. Whether the dealer knew or not. A private seller is only under obligation to take the horse back if they knowingly misrepresented it. I hope you sort it out. It's a nightmare situation for you.