Do I have grounds for a refund?

[Spirit2021]

I can actually see where fuzzy is coming from the pony was sold over 2 years ago realistically it kind of stupid for looking for a refund now. If you tried to return clothes that you bought from 2 years old they will tell you to f## off. You only have a certain time limit . Sounds like op doesn’t want the horse anymore so it a easier way to get rid than selling .

 

[ester]

Sold 2 years ago? Where did you get that idea from? OP says few weeks.. .

 

[only_me]

horrible situation to be in OP, feel for you. If you can’t get money back/pony back go seller then can always try as a WHP if talented - don’t forget they have 153cm as their limit.
They sell for good money too.

Impartial person playing devils advocate here -
Surely ensuring the height is suitable is a huge part of buyers responsibility?
Especially at that level, where height is as important as the vetting.

The seller could state sold in good faith, pony did measure in by a good bit at the last official measuring. It would be hard to prove that the seller stood a stick to the pony prior to sale and knew was overheight.

The other issue could be that there are a *lot* of massive 148cms out there competing, so if the seller was comparing pony to pony there may not have been a huge difference.

I think it could be difficult defining a ”mis-sold” pony based on height, but its good you have the texts as well to back you up.

Fingers crossed you get this whole thing sorted OP, not a pleasant situation at all.

eg. This pony (con x)had a Life cert as 148 and did pony eventing & SJ so was measured regularly at competitions. I’m just over 5f6 and he is on a very slight hill. His new owners had sent him back to me to keep ticking over while they were away so is also pretty fit in this photo.

You can see why it’s hard to judge height from other ponies stood up though.

 

[I'm Dun]

I can actually see where fuzzy is coming from the pony was sold over 2 years ago realistically it kind of stupid for looking for a refund now. If you tried to return clothes that you bought from 2 years old they will tell you to f## off. You only have a certain time limit . Sounds like op doesn’t want the horse anymore so it a easier way to get rid than selling .

I have not once seen you post anything factually correct or helpful in any way. I cant decide if you are a clueless child or a really bad troll.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Sorry if you are offended, I'm not trying to "discredit", I just don't understand your argument in relation to a business sale.

I hope the buyer will win but with court cases nothing is guaranteed, sadly.
.

Exactly the point here. "With court cases nothing is guaranteed" that's exactly what myself and I think TFF are trying to say.


For sales in the UK, the buyer never ever bears an responsibility and due diligence never applies, can you site which part of the law leads to that conclusion? I have an idea of what it could be, but I'm not sure.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

But that's not true. A business seller does not "require", legally, any due diligence from the buyer. Legally, the horse has to be what a business seller says it is.

It's really wise to do your due diligence whoever the seller is, but the law is clear. A private seller can legally unknowingly sell a horse which is not fit for purpose but a business seller cannot.

I'm sorry FF, I'm not trying to be contrary about this, it's a very important point of law. It's what makes horses bought from a dealer (not as an agent, owned by the dealer) worth more than a horse from a private seller.
.

Again, details. The horse might be what the seller said it was. IF she said it measured 2 years ago or at age x or whatever it was. With one side of the story, and no hard evidence (ad, communications, etc.) We don't exactly know.

I don't know that the seller ever said "pony currently measures under/within to qualify as a pony."

If I were selling I would've said, she measured at x time, but now I'm not so sure. If you are looking for a pony to compete, a measurement should be apart of your pre purchase exam. Or I as the seller would've done that to know what I'm selling. But I'm honest and it often makes me lose money ?

If the seller writes "For sale: pony that measured under x height" that's not technically wrong. The pony did measure under...at one point. The seller did disclose this (that the measurement was older). Is it a bit misleading? Possibly. Enough to win a case? Probably not, but depends on a few things.

My point is, we can play armchair lawyers all day and we all want the best for the OP as well as the horse, but we just can't say for certain. That's all I'm saying.

If you hold the strong opinion that the buyer can take it to court and win, that's fine. It's your opinion. There are other opinions out there that also present plausible outcomes though.

The thing with the law is that "it depends" and can seem black and white, and sometimes it is, but often it is not.

While I don't practice UK law, exactly (Int'l, anti-terrorism, European), I do have experience with raising my eyebrows when reading decisions of the court ? and know the devil is in the details.

For the OP, it is definitely worth talking to a solicitor. Then depending on that outcome, bringing it to the court.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

This thread was really interesting because of a clear legal explanation of 'negligent misrepresentation' that was provided and is (I believe) the route taken by the OP after consultation with a solicitor. I was not aware of it so nice to learn something new. If people now doubting she may have a case are genuinely interested I'd recommend scrolling up to read that part of the thread.

 

[scats]

I can actually see where fuzzy is coming from the pony was sold over 2 years ago realistically it kind of stupid for looking for a refund now. If you tried to return clothes that you bought from 2 years old they will tell you to f## off. You only have a certain time limit . Sounds like op doesn’t want the horse anymore so it a easier way to get rid than selling .

Have you read the thread??

 

[Tiddlypom]

AE, which post no was that re negligent representation?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

AE, which post no was that re negligent representation?

Post number 121

 

[Goldenstar]

Sorry everyone. You have probably already guessed but she still didn't measure in. Absolutely gutted. I have no issue with JMB - everything was done very professionally - 2 vets plus a JMB representative. The pony is just too big! So now we have a very small horse with high withers.
A solicitors letter is already in the post to the original owner. She has 7 days to respond so I will let you know what happens - again. Thank you all so much for your support xx

I am sad for you but not surprised .
You have been done .
I think you just need to go through the process and you will win .
Wrap the small horse in cotton wool and keep her safe .
Don't worry about her future she can go on to have a happy life with a small adult .

 

[Goldenstar]

Common sense says it does, the law says it doesnt.

This is the nub of this case.
Even from the detail on this thread I can see loads that a good lawyer will use to romp all over seller .
The dealer just needs to take the pony back .
She has addmitted she won’t take the pony back because it’s still a horse with me ,
theres loads of other things that will lose her the case .

OP will to accept she needs to sharpen up and take off her rose tinted specs when buying horses.
Never assume when buying a horse ,people are expert at declaring something without doing so in upfront way .

 

[ycbm]

Surely ensuring the height is suitable is a huge part of buyers responsibility?
Especially at that level, where height is as important as the vetting.

In law, if the seller is a business seller, there is no such legal responsibility.

The seller could state sold in good faith, pony did measure in by a good bit at the last official measuring. It would be hard to prove that the seller stood a stick to the pony prior to sale and knew was overheight.

As a business seller, they do not have to be proven to know anything. In consumer law, the pony is still missold if the seller honestly believes it will measure in but doesn't.

I think it could be difficult defining a ”mis-sold” pony based on height, but its good you have the texts as well to back you up.

It's a subtle difference, but the pony wasn't missold on height. It was missold on the ability to compete in height restricted classes. There is a huge difference between a pony that can enter affiliated 14.2 classes and one that can't, however small the height difference. A pony that measures only 2mm over would never be deemed missold unless that 2mm put it out of height restricted classes.

There is also a case which was won against a dealer near me where the maximum height specified by the buyer was 17 hands (to fit in his trailer, I think) and he bought the horse and took it home and measured it some time later and it was over.

 

[ycbm]

I feel a bit sorry for the child, these classes are age related as well and she is losing precious time while a dealer tries to cheat her mother.
.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

This thread was really interesting because of a clear legal explanation of 'negligent misrepresentation' that was provided and is (I believe) the route taken by the OP after consultation with a solicitor. I was not aware of it so nice to learn something new. If people now doubting she may have a case are genuinely interested I'd recommend scrolling up to read that part of the thread.

Erm, there was no definite route defined by the solicitor yet. The OP said "I think" so I haven't seen anything definitive.

I scrolled up and read that part of the thread.

Whole post #121 that was so important is very informative and provides and path that the OP could take, that doesn't mean the case is clear cut. It very well could be, and that'd be great for the OP.

Maybe you know, but I still don't know exactly how the pony was advertised and direct wording. So that's where my question lies.

If the OP specifically said she was buying the pony based off of it measuring in, but with no actual measurement, and the buyer said "she will measure in when you measure her" and the buyer is a professional, maybe there is something there. However, when we hear one side of the story and don't see all evidence, we simply cannot know.

If you think those of us who are doubting are totally wrong, that's fine. I am not doubting nor am I saying there is a definite case in favor of the OP, I am saying while the law appears to be clear, the devil can be in the details.

Edit: maybe you forgot about the post referencing a case in the beginning of this thread: Post #4

https://andersonstrathern.co.uk/news-insight/the-sale-of-a-pony-a-judicial-neigh-for-the-purchaser/

Details.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I feel a bit sorry for the child, these classes are age related as well and she is losing precious time while a dealer tries to cheat her mother.
.

Yeah, it's always the kid and/or the horse thst often "lose" in these cases. ?

It's unfortunate.

Sometimes, a dealer (cars, horses, whatever) is not legally wrong but is morally/ethically wrong. If that makes sense. Not saying that is the case here, but it's sh***y. You're left with no recourse legally, but have been cheated nonetheless.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I mentioned that issue again because it was news to me and because other posts since then keep referring to the difference between dealers and private sellers/mis selling etc

I had always believed - as other seem to- that private sellers only have to operate in good faith and it's very much buyer beware. I was not aware of negligent misrepresentation which applied to private sellers as well as dealers. I'm not saying she'll win. That's what courts are for.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I mentioned that issue again because it was news to me and because other posts since then keep referring to the difference between dealers and private sellers/mis selling etc

I had always believed - as other seem to- that private sellers only have to operate in good faith and it's very much buyer beware. I was not aware of negligent misrepresentation which applied to private sellers as well as dealers. I'm not saying she'll win. That's what courts are for.

Ahhh, ok. Got it.

 

[southerncomfort]

I have not once seen you post anything factually correct or helpful in any way. I cant decide if you are a clueless child or a really bad troll.

And if she is a child.....?

Thats a pretty nasty thing to say to anyone, especially a child.

You have the option of scrolling past comments you don't find useful.

 

[only_me]

In law, if the seller is a business seller, there is no such legal responsibility.
As a business seller, they do not have to be proven to know anything. In consumer law, the pony is still missold if the buyer honestly believes it will measure in but doesn't.

It's a subtle difference, but the pony wasn't missold on height. It was missold on the ability to compete in height restricted classes. There is a huge difference between a pony that can enter affiliated 14.2 classes and one that can't, however small the height difference. A pony that measures only 2mm over would never be deemed missold unless that 2mm put it out of height restricted classes.

There is also a case which was won against a dealer near me where the maximum height specified by the buyer was 17 hands (to fit in his trailer, I think) and he bought the horse and took it home and measured it some time later and it was over.

That’s interesting, thanks ycbm. Is that why a dealer then is less protected than a private seller?
I Have read through the thread and tried to understand it but consumer Law I’m not very clued up on.
Have to say in Ireland it does seem to be very much buyer beware even if from a dealer but there are probably some differences in the law here.

Interesting about the 17h horse! If they managed to win I can’t see why a pony wouldn’t have a good chance of going the right way for OP.

 

[paddy555]

Maybe you know, but I still don't know exactly how the pony was advertised and direct wording. So that's where my question lies.

exactly. Lots of conclusions can be reached but that is only on the info given on this thread. There is no audit trail. The original documents are needed.

 

[spacefaer]

I find it very telling that the vendor "could" have got a height cert for the pony this time but didn't.
I would be fully of the opinion that they knew the pony wouldn't measure in which is why they didn't try. A failed measure would be recorded.

 

[milliepops]

And if she is a child.....?

Thats a pretty nasty thing to say to anyone, especially a child.

You have the option of scrolling past comments you don't find useful.

we do, however that poster repeatedly makes unfounded or tactless statements even on potentially upsetting threads so they'd do well to be a bit more thoughtful about what they post.

 

[ycbm]

I find it very telling that the vendor "could" have got a height cert for the pony this time but didn't.
I would be fully of the opinion that they knew the pony wouldn't measure in which is why they didn't try. A failed measure would be recorded.

Absolutely. They were hoping for a naive buyer and they found one.

 

[The Xmas Furry]

Absolutely. They were hoping for a naive buyer and they found one.

That's a very big assumption.
Far better to stick to facts than posting as if you have knowledge of the vendor.

 

[SO1]

I expect a professional would understand the market and would know buyers are desperate at the moment even buying unseen and someone would take the risk of buying without measuring first as they would be worried about missing out.

A professional would also know that a pony with a recent HC would be worth more than an unmeasured pony so perhaps they did have some doubts about the height. If you are advertising ponies as suitable for height restricted classes a HC would add value and make a pony easier to sell so if I was a pro or amateur even and I advertising for a certain market where height is an issue and confident that a pony would measure in I would invest in the certificate pre advertising. It is I think £90 for a certificate which is not that much and it could mean a quicker sale and you can add on a few hundred I would have thought for that as well to the price as well.

It is a sellers market at the moment and I expect a lot of buyers make get caught out as they take risks that perhaps they don't normally take as they get desperate for a horse or pony and everything selling so fast.

Absolutely. They were hoping for a naive buyer and they found one.

 

[Lexie01]

Hi, I obviously have to be careful now given that the case is with solicitors but I can confirm that the pony was sold as a top class 148 pony - not top 148 pony subject to LHC. The person selling is a professional. I queried the height of the pony in messages and it was stated that she would measure in without any problems. This ultimately is what the case rests on. The seller does not need to have knowingly misrepresented the height of the pony - just negligently. In this case I believe Caveat Emptor does not apply.
Obviously lesson learned now is that I will always request a LHC.
My only excuse is that my daughters 148 pony had had to be retired. We were desperate to find her something to ride - the market is very fluid and fast atm. If I had requested a LH measurement I suspect the seller would simply have refused as there were many others waiting to try her. People are buying 148 ponies from videos currently which I think is mad but understandable because there are so few around. But as said lesson learned x

 

[Clodagh]

Best of luck with it all.

 

[southerncomfort]

we do, however that poster repeatedly makes unfounded or tactless statements even on potentially upsetting threads so they'd do well to be a bit more thoughtful about what they post.

I don't disagree. She is certainly guilty of not reading threads properly.

I just don't think its necessary to be so blunt and unkind.

 

[ycbm]

Hi, I obviously have to be careful now given that the case is with solicitors but I can confirm that the pony was sold as a top class 148 pony - not top 148 pony subject to LHC. The person selling is a professional. I queried the height of the pony in messages and it was stated that she would measure in without any problems. This ultimately is what the case rests on. The seller does not need to have knowingly misrepresented the height of the pony - just negligently. In this case I believe Caveat Emptor does not apply.
Obviously lesson learned now is that I will always request a LHC.
My only excuse is that my daughters 148 pony had had to be retired. We were desperate to find her something to ride - the market is very fluid and fast atm. If I had requested a LH measurement I suspect the seller would simply have refused as there were many others waiting to try her. People are buying 148 ponies from videos currently which I think is mad but understandable because there are so few around. But as said lesson learned x

Best of luck with this. I hope it can be settled quickly out of court for the sake of all concerned.
.