Do we over analyse horses now

[Patterdale]

deleted, lowest form of wit sorry!

 

[Time for Tea]

I think that's the story of all of life, and I believe part of the reason we're all overwhelmed and so many being diagnosed with ADHD, life is no longer simple in any way shape or form. More and more choice does not help the human conditionoverall.

I am enjoying reading the whole thread, I think many and varied good points made, but the above rings absolutely true, for me.

 

[maya2008]

This has turned into quite the argument!

Lots of modern things are really good - saddle fitting, supplements for things like pssm and arthritis. Vet care. Dentist. My TB had over 5 extra years thanks to Boswellia and a joint injection.

In terms of feed = health, absolutely. If you have tested your pasture and hay and it has everything your horses need, then they need nothing else unless they drop weight. If not, there are companies that will produce a tailored supplement or you can feed a balancer/vit&min mix/field lick. Most UK pasture is deficient in lysine, so I supplement that and a generic powdered supplement because our hay comes from a variety of sources and the various fields are not the same in terms of soil and grass. Deficiency in something will affect growth, immunity, skin/coat health etc. That is just basic biology. Genetics also plays a part. We supplemented magnesium this year for the susceptible ones as they went out on the spring grass and it has been amazing - no zoomies and everyone can think straight. What’s wrong in that??

 

[Toby_Zaphod]

The thing that worries me with this analysing of horses is when I look at what they are being given to eat? I see that they are being given some feed in their bucket but in reality there are more additives than actual feed. A scoop of this, a scoop of that etc. If you look back over various threads about horse feeding you will see all the horrendous lists of additives that they feed in fact the volume of additives is a bigger volume than the feed.

 

[tristars]

i think arenas are brill!

no excuse get out there and move that horse, in any weather almost.

its the way they are ridden, if they do move properly and are ridden in a good way the result will be good, and ridden according to their fitness and education, an arena is a great schooling tool.

Definitely. In the last few years, I certainly have decided to go more simple and back to basics this past couple of years. My old boy gets a powder balancer in his feed, the other two do not. They all have happy hoof and hay and are all doing really well on it. My physio paid loads of compliments when she came out the other week about their topline and muscle being fantastic. I only work them theee times per week maximum at the moment and she asked what I was feeding I think fully expecting me to say ‘topline conditioning cubes’ or similar but no - proper work (quality over quantity) and a simple diet of complete fibre is the way forward I believe.

brill, yes fibre and work

 

[tristars]

Sadly the damage was often done by people who are scared of seeing ribs on yearlings and two year olds.
.

i like to see ribs on everything

 

[Time for Tea]

That’s true the truth is youngsters often look all bones and angles when growing and we can’t look at that today with the same eyes that we did forty years ago.

Also true of young people

 

[SEL]

No balancer is going to prevent mud fever. That’s just daft.

It isn't.

If you feel like doing any analysis at all rather than being entrenched in your own views then you'll find there's actual proper science re: minerals, immune system, health, skin etc

Selenium in particular can affect the balance of copper. There's a study somewhere out there.

 

[Goldenstar]

A balancer could help a horse produce healthy strong skin and thus help prevent mud fever .

 

[Goldenstar]

Ribs, the Holy Grail of the Irish draught owner .

 

[LEC]

I’ve no idea what she feeds, but forage is enough.

Horses DO NOT NEED balancers. Good forage provides all the ‘vitamins and minerals’ they need. It’s what they’re evolved to eat.

I would say that the marketing ploy of ‘balancers’ (inverted commas because it’s a stupid name, they don’t balance anything) is one of the major contributors towards equine obesity in the UK.

Not true. I had a long discussion on this with an independent qualified nutritionist who I paid. I even get haylage analysed as well. It’s still missing vital elements and having had a horse with copper deficiency a very long time ago, have seen what it does. We are still on same land 40 years later, so everything is always supplemented as I don’t feed much hard feed. In summer I drop vitamins as get those from grass but they are fed minerals all year round.

Balancers are stupid as mostly fill but I just feed straights in powder form.

 

[LEC]

Ñko8ll

according to the video (yard tour on Piggy TV) she says Lordships Graffalo gets grass nuts, dried grass chaff and electrolytes. I can see, in the back corner of the video screen a single bag of topspec lite - so perhaps some/all of them get that - but it isn't mentioned.

Probably as not sponsored by them…. She is by Emerald Green. I watched same Piggy Tv!

 

[Nasicus]

It isn't.

If you feel like doing any analysis at all rather than being entrenched in your own views then you'll find there's actual proper science re: minerals, immune system, health, skin etc

Selenium in particular can affect the balance of copper. There's a study somewhere out there.

Vaguely relevent example, I was having an awful time with Angular Cheilitis last year. Had it for months, nothing I got from over the counter even touched it.
I did some digging, and it can be caused by lack of vitamin B2, which is commonly found in eggs and dairy, two things I can't eat. I picked up a bag of B Vitamin supplements, and I'll be damned if it hadn't cleared up within a week. Anecdotal Evidence of a skin problem being caused by a lack of vitamins, and then being corrected by vitamin supplementation.

 

[paddy555]

I’ve no idea what she feeds, but forage is enough.

Horses DO NOT NEED balancers. Good forage provides all the ‘vitamins and minerals’ they need. It’s what they’re evolved to eat.

I would say that the marketing ploy of ‘balancers’ (inverted commas because it’s a stupid name, they don’t balance anything) is one of the major contributors towards equine obesity in the UK.

I think that's quite a dangerous statement to post. How do you supplement vit E without a supplement? What happens if you don't? Might be OK in ponies not doing much but far from OK in a working horse.
I had one horse with undiagnosed cushings, (he was too young at the time for the vet to suspect it). His feet just wouldn't grow, at all. Equimins hoofmender and a few months later there was lots to trim. (not necssarily recommending hoofmender there are far better now)

forage ie hay can be anything ie low protein. You have no idea unless it is analysed and for many that is impossible.

Every horse and pony is different.

 

[Patterdale]

I think that's quite a dangerous statement to post. How do you supplement vit E without a supplement? What happens if you don't? Might be OK in ponies not doing much but far from OK in a working horse.
I had one horse with undiagnosed cushings, (he was too young at the time for the vet to suspect it). His feet just wouldn't grow, at all. Equimins hoofmender and a few months later there was lots to trim. (not necssarily recommending hoofmender there are far better now)

forage ie hay can be anything ie low protein. You have no idea unless it is analysed and for many that is impossible.

Every horse and pony is different.

But that’s why I said ‘good quality forage.’

And yes, some MEDICAL issues need targeted supplementation but that’s a far stretch to proving that all horses need a balancer.

 

[Kaylum]

Getting hay analysed, fields are wetter in areas and can produced very different results from the same crop. So don't rely on this.

 

[Cloball]

Reading this thread has made me realise my black pony was shiny and brown this time last year without a balancer, this year she is shiny and black
She's also the slimmest native on the yard with easily palpable ribs and the only one that's fed.
But then I'm definitely an over analyser novice owner who panics at every bad day.

 

[Patterdale]

Getting hay analysed, fields are wetter in areas and can produced very different results from the same crop. So don't rely on this.

I tend to rely on how the horses look.

Looking good, happy and plenty energy? Not broke. Don’t fix it.

 

[khalswitz]

But that’s why I said ‘good quality forage.’

And yes, some MEDICAL issues need targeted supplementation but that’s a far stretch to proving that all horses need a balancer.

This is the key bit that I think is causing the argument here - good quality forage that isn’t deficient in any key vitamins and minerals, and yes I agree a horse doesn’t need a balancer.

But for a lot (even arguably a majority?) their forage isn’t going to be perfectly balanced. I used to live in Aberdeenshire, now in the Scottish Borders, and I’ve never had forage that wasn’t deficient in selenium at least. And now, even in April, because of the horrific weather we have barely any grass, and with last year’s poor and limited hay crop everyone is struggling to get hay at all - ours are onto the dusty and poor stuff now for that reason. I’m feeding more hard feed than I’ve ever needed to feed in an April without snow on the ground, and a lot of local horses are looking poor from it.

So I completely agree with your point that if the forage is good quality then they don’t need anything else. But I also see why people are arguing the opposite, because I believe good quality forage isn’t as widely spread as it used to be and thus far fewer people can feed it.

That doesn’t account for the folk feeding actual buckets of ‘low cal’ hard feed beyond the basic balancer though, whose horses are fat and don’t need it. That’s another story.

ETA: It’s also worth noting that the balance doesn’t need to be ‘perfect’ - my own diet certainly is far from perfect and I do ok! But I do think major deficiencies are becoming more common and it’s those major deficiencies that really affect health.

 

[JFTDWS]

I don’t think over-analysis is remotely the problem in the horse world. If anything, I think a lack of analysis remains the biggest problem - ignorant owners and those entrenched in their chosen belief system regardless of evidence to the contrary.

There are problems with malevolent marketing - feed companies, bull products to magic your horse sound etc - as there has ever been, but now more widely available - but if horse owners analyse their claims sensibly, they wouldn’t fall for them.

I don’t think modern horse care is great - I think the lack of turnout and monoculture grazing is a disgrace- but I don’t think horses had it better in the recent past either. Everyone talks about the lost wisdom of the great horsemen of their youth, but the reality is that most horses didn’t get that.

It would be a cold day in hell before I gave up the knowledge that modern science has brought to horse ownership, and the availability of targeted mineral / vitamin supplementation. Similarly the diversity of tack solutions - not gadgets, but different styles of tack - and modern management options.

And I say that as someone whose horses rarely see a surface, live out all year in mixed species grazing, minimal rugs and feed etc.

It’s not a binary choice between fat, over-rugged, over-fed, mollycoddled modern horses and sleek, well-conditioned products of old-school management. You can take the best bits of everything and try to improve what you’re doing.

 

[Peglo]

But that’s why I said ‘good quality forage.’

And yes, some MEDICAL issues need targeted supplementation but that’s a far stretch to proving that all horses need a balancer.

I stopped my vits and mins when I was considering switching what I used and within 2 weeks my horses hooves started chipping. It wasn’t even that good a supplement I was using. She obviously went back on it and her hooves stopped chipping.
So maybe not ALL horses need a balancer but it’s not true that NO horse needs supplemented.

On a side note I stopped getting the cold when I started taking probiotics so my horses will be kept on that too.

 

[Horseysheepy]

Slight tangent based on post above that I can't find now!

I don't know about over analysing, but I do think we micro manage their environment.

I read an article in a horse mag a few years back by a jump/cross country trainer. I'm para phrasing but the gist of his argument was that it's a lot harder to teach a horse to be careful with its legs/feet if we are constantly removing any kind of obstacle from it's day to day life.

He said that he deliberately left obstacles on the yard for them to step over/walk around, and left branches/tree trunks etc out in the field etc.

In our quest to keep them safe, we've removed any kind of enrichment or anything that makes them think about how to use their body.

I wonder if, in over thinking how they should be kept and completely sanitising their environment we've actually made them more prone to injury, not less.

So true!

I always take my young horses in hand around the fields where they can walk over fallen branches go up and down banks and attempt to persuade them through a puddle! Also walk them around the headlands where there are often old fallen twigs to get them accustomed to the twigs cracking under their hooves so as not to alarm them when hacking under saddle.
Is good for them to develop their 5th leg and proprioceptive skills. Possibly why lots are taken cubbing quite early on in their ridden lives?.... develop coordination and forward momentum.

 

[Titchy Reindeer]

I think perhaps over anthropomorphising horses is probably a bigger issue than over-analysing. We probably talk about it more regarding dogs and other "furbabies", but the same sort of phenomenon happens to horses.

Most here agree that too much / the wrong kind of feed is killing horses but for many people "feeding is caring" or over here in France the saying is "rather make others feel envy than pity (with regards to one's weight)". They cannot conceive that not getting two or three proper "meals" a day is OK, and hay/forage isn't seen as a "proper meal". I had this when Little Madam was on livery and getting fat. I asked them to cut the hard feed but instead they wanted to cut the hay because "hay makes them fat and they need hard feed for energy". Not quite true, it's a bit like me saying I can't possibly reduce the number of Mars bars I eat to lose weight, but I'll cut back on the pasta. I also had a few horrified glances regarding my dog when I mentioned she wouldn't be needing her dinner after all the treats (taken out of her dinner ration) she'd had that day. Also standard feed scoops are 2L, I swapped mine out for a graduated 1L measuring jug.

Anthropomorphism also means people don't like horses getting wet or cold. So many people (random neighbours) have asked me if the weather wasn't too bad for my horses to be out. No one asks that about cows or sheep. I've even seen a tendency at the riding school to rug more and more over the last 20 years. When I first started there, the only horses that had rugs on were liveries or at death's door. Now almost everything has a rug on in the stable, even though winters are getting warmer. The instructors' daughter, lovely kid but drives me insane sometimes, likes to keep everything warm and if possible wrapped up in bubble wrap ("What if he hurts himself?!"). I've had several conversations with her along the lines of "I'm not even wearing my coat to ride, why does your non-clipped pony need an exercise sheet?".

And then, linked to the previous two, there is the whole "spending is caring" mentality (also seen with kids: can't be bothered spending time with them, buy them something expensive). So you can delude yourself, and sometimes others, into thinking you are giving your best by buying the most expensive feeds and supplements, the newest "miracle" leg wraps or rugs, a fancy "made to measure" saddle (I'm talking about expensive continental brands "fitted" by the sales rep and that slips up the horse's neck 2 weeks later).

PS: I'm not saying that feeding, rugging or spending money on your horse is bad, just know why you're doing it. Is it really for the horse? If yes, does the horse really need/appreciate it? Or is it more for you? In that case, is it harming the horse? And try to keep in mind the difference between horses and humans and even the difference between individual horses and their current circumstances.

 

[I'm Dun]

Cows get mg supplemented because they are prone to mg deficiency as a species.

Horses fed good quality forage do not need balancers. The name is stupid and misleading to start with, it’s just a broad additive designed to sell feed to horses that don’t need it.

The idea that every horse needs a balancer directly leads to the idea that every horse needs feed. It is a direct contributor to equine obesity in the UK. Lets be honest, owners of fat horses can never just feed a balancer, they always add chaff and some kind of mash or ‘low cal’ muesli or whatever crap.

I do not feed balancers and my horses all look and feel very good on good quality forage and a field lick, which they can take or leave. Maybe that’s what we should be promoting? But they’re too inexpensive and simple so will never catch on.

Horses as a species are also prone to being deficient in it. Its why most calmers are magnesium based.

You'd be better off not feeding the lick. Horses cant absorb vitamins and minerals through their tongue the way cattle do. Science is also clear that horses do not self select to rectify a deficiency.

I've had horses looking shiny, perfect weight, picture of health, and riddled with ulcers or worm counting in the thousands. A shiny coat doesn't mean a well horse.

 

[equinerebel]

I come from a non horsey background and learnt to ride between 2005 - 2010 at riding schools before getting into loans and then my own. There was no old, traditional horsemanship around to learn from, but I think a lot of how I keep my horse is close to it. I like to listen and learn, hence being a forum member, and I like to think I've taken a lot from lots of people and filtered it through to what works for me and mine.

 

[Annagain]

It's the case with almost every argument - the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Developments in science and knowledge are always a good thing - it's the way that science / knowledge is (ab)used that's the issue.

Today's world is very different and a lot of it is outside an owner's control so I don't think it necessarily fair to blame owners for all of it. There was much more land available 40-50 years ago so keeping horses out most of the time, if not all the time, was much easier and more affordable. Renting or owning a field was far more common. Livery yards with limited turnout and strict rules were unheard of unless at the very top end. Very few owners now have the option of 24/7 turnout. I would love for mine to live out but there's nowhere locally where they can do that in winter so 24/7 in summer and in overnight in winter is the best I can manage. It's a compromise I'm happy with but one I wish I didn't have to make.

Working full time, often with difficult hours, is the norm so working horses every day isn't always possible. Back in the day, wives tended not to work so had time to ride or take the kids out on their ponies every day. The kids often were in the village school a 2 minute walk away and rarely had after school clubs and activities. That's just not doable now, even if a parent is a full-time parent, there are so many other commitments that kids have that riding has to fit around. People in work also tend to commute longer distances.

I don't necessarily buy the argument that everyone in the 'olden days' was a horseman / horsewoman. I'm sure there were plenty of very inexperienced people around then too, but, unlike many of you on here who have been riding since the 60s, they've probably not carried on with horses until the present day to share their experiences. We only hear from (or are inspired by) people who have ridden and owned horses their whole lives. My mother is an example, she grew up in a little village and her parents had some land. It was the norm there for the kids to have ponies so her parents bought her one. They didn't have a clue. It lived alone, in one field that was never rested and would dump my mother as soon as look at her. After a few years she lost interest and he was sold. She's never really ridden since, just been pony trekking with me a few times. She'd never be on a forum telling people she didn't have a clue.

I think the types of horses we have make a difference too. Back in the day there were native ponies who were mostly field kept with very little feed etc and riding horses were mostly TBs who weren't such great doers. You did have the family cob but they were nowhere near as prolific as the cobs and part breeds we have today. Draught types just pulled things and were working hard all day. They've now been crossed with TBs or other more athletic types but their genetic propensity to metabolise their feed as if they're still working hard all day pulling things is still there.

The advent of experts is a good thing generally but when those experts are used as marketing, it's problematic. I'm a big believer in doing the research and talking to experts but making decisions for myself. I suppose though that I have that sort of brain, I like to have as much evidence as possible, balance it all and come up with a logical solution. I totally understand that isn't the case for everyone and many will take the word of an 'expert' because they don't have the time or inclination to do that research themselves. Despite the idea that the public are fed up of experts, it seems they're not as long as the advice they're offering is easy to implement.

 

[paddy555]

But that’s why I said ‘good quality forage.’

how can you tell if it is? ie from a mineral etc POV/also protein POV

I tend to rely on how the horses look.

Looking good, happy and plenty energy? Not broke. Don’t fix it.

I did that. No balancer/supplement and he looked fine. Lots of mileage, appeared to be no problem.
Sadly there was a problem getting more serious by the day vit E deficiency. Then it became too late.

Now I supplement. The supplement doesn't make them fat, I don't care if it is thought of as a waste of money, I prefer to make sure they have the necessary.

 

[4Hoofed]

I personally thing the issue is many novice owners vs a few experienced owners, sometimes the experienced owners hold on to their knowledge like it’s international secret code. And the fact people are inundated with mixed messages from advertising, blog, magazines etc. and more and more people don’t seem to know how to fact check, analyse, and also the mentality of fixing things that aren’t broken.

Also people are scared to WORK horses these days. My boy hacks out in a striding out walk, active in bridle trotting, including up a 14% hill, canters down a bit of a rough and ready bridle path.. all n all its between 5-10 miles, 4-6 times a week and sometimes does our circuit then goes a second time with someone if we meet on the drive and they want company/time. I’ve been in the school 5 times since coming to this yard 2x before show last year 3x in the run to this year to a show in early may. He’s a big horse, circles in sand isn’t going to do him good, learning to leg yield, shoulder in up and down the hill? Seems to have worked so far, came back in the school and my friend was amazed how schooled he looks ;p a lot of people round here don’t “ride” out hacking. I spent a fair amount of time on the buckle as well. But people don’t want to spent two years it took to go from breaking to balanced walk trot canter…

I think the Information Age is great but when people don’t have knowledge to fall back on or good advisers it just becomes jumping from one fad to the next in an anxiety driven mess to the next. And that leads to owners over analysing ever second they see their horse.

My big boys feed is big. He gets Alfa and muscle and power. Salt oil and as much forage, herbs, as much haylage as he eats out 24/7. Two months ago I was worried my Suffolk punch was looking more like a racehorse. A&P came out weighed him made a few suggestions, but also recommended to other owners a handful of chop, vits n mins if they felt like they had to feed she was very good, agreed big boy was light but was very amicable to using other brands etc. but I saw another rep in a feed store once who without even seeing a picture of my horse knew they needed x y & z of course all their brand… and about 5 kg a meal

Poor baby gets half the rate of suregrow and a handful of Alfa to amuse him and keep him out his brothers feed bowl lest he gets eaten..

But mainly I think it’s lack of knowledgeable people on most yards, too many novices who either flat out don’t try to learn or jump from one thing to the next!!

 

[santas_spotty_pony]

I think messing about with different vitamins and minerals you really need to know what you are doing. For example - too much copper in the diet is toxic and can lead to liver problems.

 

[Patterdale]

You'd be better off not feeding the lick. Horses cant absorb vitamins and minerals through their tongue the way cattle do. Science is also clear that horses do not self select to rectify a deficiency.

I've had horses looking shiny, perfect weight, picture of health, and riddled with ulcers or worm counting in the thousands. A shiny coat doesn't mean a well horse.

They don’t absorb the lick through their tongue. That’s not how digestion works.
That whole paragraph of yours is proving the whole point of this thread.
You present an opinion as fact ‘you’d be better off not feeding the lick.’
You follow it on with an incorrect statement, again given as fact. Then you reference your evidence, namely ‘science.’
You’re wrong, but rather than offer this as your opinion, you give it confidently as fact.

For the second paragraph - exactly how many very healthy horses have you personally had who were ‘riddled’ with ulcers and had worm counts in the tens of thousands? And how did you find this out.
FWIW, if I had a perfectly happy and healthy horse, who was in good condition with normal energy levels and mental faculties, who I somehow learned had ulcers…? It could keep them. As clearly not bothering the horse.

I’m just wondering why you have had multiple healthy, happy horses scoped for ulcers


It won’t let me type below the next quote, but again, if the horse was in good condition, sound and happy, how and why did you find out it had a serious deficiency?

I did that. No balancer/supplement and he looked fine. Lots of mileage, appeared to be no problem.
Sadly there was a problem getting more serious by the day vit E deficiency. Then it became too late.